"Please Kick Me..." - Just Take Your Penalty

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

maybe its the groups attitude thats bad. so should the victim of this be forced to endure a penalty because of a toxic community?

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Your example is getting sillier and sillier.

We went from "person asks vote kick to dodge penalty" to "poor victim lands in groups of assholes and needs to be protected by the system".

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

maybe its the groups attitude thats bad. so should the victim of this be forced to endure a penalty because of a toxic community?

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I'm really tired of seeing "toxic community" get thrown around all willy nilly. It is not toxic to expect someone who's queue'd up for a roulette or pvp to stay for the run. If they leave before it's completed there is a penalty; that's what the system is there for.

If someone gets into a run and sees that it's a dungeon they don't like, or their GC is losing in pvp, and asks to get vote kicked so they don't get a penalty timer when they go to re-queue that's cherry picking a group. It's not toxic of the rest of the party to not want to consume their limited vote kick abilities on these players.

One of my suggestions was to make a vote kick penalty timer to help circumvent this behaviour but there was also another good suggestion of an inactivity timer that would trigger a kick with a penalty.

This is an open discussion and it's nice to hear all sides regardless of if I agree with them personally or not.

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Originally Posted by Syrehn

However, I don't agree with using vote kick because someone "asks" to be removed if they don't like a dungeon.

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For reference, this is the stubborn part.

You aren't accomplishing anything at this point in the hypothetical imo. I've seen all this stuff happen, and there's no revelatory experience that emerges from it. No one decides they were being a dick and to be cooperative. The individual gets stuck in the dungeon for a while. The rest of the group has to wait even longer than usual for a replacement. At a practical level that's all that happens. Just because someone's wrong doesn't make the other party right.

Suggesting a penalty to kick is something. But just refusing to kick someone at this point serves no purpose except to create a heightened sense of righteous indignation. It's just stubborn.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Your example is getting sillier and sillier.

We went from "person asks vote kick to dodge penalty" to "poor victim lands in groups of assholes and needs to be protected by the system".

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dodging penalty is only an example OP used to give back bone to their argument. im trying to say there are justified reasons to allow someone to get the kick they requested. im not going to hold any individual or a run hostage because im too stubborn to just let someone go. it impedes myself and the 2 to 6 others i am with because i am seeking justice demanding they accept punishment

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

dodging penalty is only an example OP used to give back bone to their argument. im trying to say there are justified reasons to allow someone to get the kick they requested. im not going to hold any individual or a run hostage because im too stubborn to just let someone go. it impedes myself and the 2 to 6 others i am with because i am seeking justice demanding they accept punishment

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You are trying to justify the real toxic in the community. The people that can and will use and abuse game mechanics to have it their way. What i do is completely following the system and i am not holding anyone hostage at all. The person can leave if he wants...but he has to eat a penalty.
I love how you try to turn me into the bad guy when the other person is actively breaking the rules of the game.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

I love how you try to turn me into the bad guy when the other person is actively breaking the rules of the game.

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except i have been speaking in a general sense this whole time and you just took it as a personal attack. this is the real toxic in the community. this everything being taken so personal non-sense. ima go play the game now. enjoy your night <3

Penalty timers shouldn't even exist. Here's why:

1) I've been in a ton of groups that are just god-awful (undergeared, don't know their rotations, can't dodge, or just plain a-holes) and penalties force players into lose-lose situations in those types of parties (i.e. "stay here and not have any fun" or "leave and not have any fun because I'm locked out of DF).

2) Related to #1 - baddies use penalty timers to hold others hostage. They may cause numerous wipes and make a 5 min duty run out the whole timer but they'll still expect you to hold their hand and stay because DF. If you leave a duty before they get their clear, you are just "rage quitting" of course lol (um, no, not mad at all, I just value my time).

3) Penalties don't stop players from leaving. Yes, some players ask for votekicks, but that is against the rules. However, forcing a DC is not. I personally, usually do neither as I can craft/gather or just go do something else. In my case, a penalty timer doesn't dissuade me from leaving a duty at all, which makes me feel like it's pretty pointless. I'd rather spend 30 min doing something else than 30 min wiping with Baddie McGee.

4) And lastly, there are other ways of dealing with people cherry-picking dungeons if that's what you're really trying to stop. For example, have roulettes where they count on entering rather than on completion; if you enter a roulette and leave, you lose the roulette for the day. You can still play, you can still queue, get exp. or whatever. You just lose your bonus. I think that's fair. Sure, you will lose your roulette if you get DC'ed and that stinks but it's no more the end of the world than a 30 min penalty is.

TL;DR - Penalty timers don't exist to prevent players from cherry-picking roulettes so much as they exist to force players to work together. It's a really bad idea to try to force people to work together in a GAME. The world won't end without penalty timers, it will be exactly like it is right now. If you suck, others will still abandon and no penalty will ever change that.

Also, remember how well the penalty for withdrawing from a duty works lol. This community asks for penalties to try to get others to join and stay through a whole duty with them. The penalties don't work (in the case of the withdrawal penalty, people were never leaving to troll others, they were leaving because of long queues and doing RL stuff, which no penalty can resolve). Also, another tact would be to reward players for staying rather than penalize them for leaving, which the game already does with new player bonuses; maybe we should ask for higher bonuses rather than higher penalties? Just a thought.

Had a similar experience in Alex floor1 vs oppressor. Party wiped at 4% hp due to rage timer, understandable since 2 dps were new and just getting used to the fight. One healer says dps sucks and we can't clear then AFKS by the door for 10min before the entire pt broke from this healer wanting to be vote kicked.

Its obvious we could have cleared it with 1 more pull but this person trying to abuse the system broke the entire run AND still got his way when people started leaving. The one time I decide not to come healer...could have solo healed it, figures...

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Well in a way they could be a probation status of sorts. If your kicked once, maybe it was the team, perhaps they just don't take kindly to new people. Kicked a 2nd time from another group within 30minutes, your obviously doing something wrong. Thus giving them the penalty. Least I can't see getting put into two trolling parties wanting to kick you just for the lols. It would also punish the person should they que up again and get the same dungeon anyway, either way they are stuck. Leave and penalty, kicked and penalty or just do it.

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Seems a good way to implement it. :)