All this BLM negativity. ...

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Don't doubt that, I just remember other games where I've played in where even though the DPS is the same, the stigma of a class decides whether it would come to raids or not. How the community of an MMO works can easily be a separate study in social studies (if I'm not mistaken, it actually is.)

I've seen that happen a few times in this game too.

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And most serious and optimal raid groups will ignore stigma's and look at the facts. It usually takes a while for the majority of the community to catch on to things - look at when Ninja was first brought out for instance.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

If we are talking in a pure hypothetical stance of having two skilled players, in a complete simulation where everyone else does the mechanics, then I'll give you a leg to stand there. Though when I was doing T8, our BLM was the one doing some of the mechanics along with our BRD and he managed to pull decent DPS. I can only imagine what he'd be if he had to turret. We had to SMN on that fight, so I cannot attest too much to their DPS on that one and only gather it via hearsay.

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SMN's would have been decent had their mana issues had been fixed; especially in T8 Savage where the dread had to be away from the boss. BLM had more movement back then when we actually had procs, lower cast times and far more spellspeed.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

From what we can see right now, you are correct. Though we have no information on how different the savage fights will be. I mean, if they're just stronger version of what they are now, I may have to find myself sorely disappointed. And then I'd agree to your point. Though I wouldn't want to make assumptions such as that due to easy content, and from what I've see, nor do SE.

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I don't think they will generally just be "stronger" - but I don't think they will be completely different. Think of the difference between normal second coil and savage - hopefully a bigger gap given how easy Alex Normal seems to be. But they are fair assumptions to make based on past content and current content.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I think if the QoL changes come in and a few of the bugs have been smoothed out, that would be enough to make BLM more attractive for such roles. Right now, there are some annoying ranged mechanics and melee do have it somewhat better than ranged on most fights, but I will stick to my point that instead of outright buffing the BLM like some people want, all it would need are a few changes. Nothing huge like some people genuinely want.

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I certainly think the QoL changes must come first, but even if they do come in, a Melee is going to be more attractive for most groups.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

The reason why you can't directly buff BLM, is because they did that back in ARR and then when they started gearing up into the last levels, they were insanely good. IF we look at how gearing is going right now, we can expect another set from Alexander and our AF2 set from esoterics. That could very well make up for some very nice stat mixups and as a whole in turn, change how a lot of classes play as a whole.

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BLM's still didn't pull Melee level DPS - the only time we competed was when there was AOE in the turns. Melee's will always scale better with gear given the damage formula (assuming that hasn't changed). But you do have a point with stats; some more spellspeed gear would certainly be welcomed.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Utility is one thing, but that's a very hypothetical situation. Even in top end, world first statics, there are always some players who are better than the others. Not by a huge margin, but enough to make a difference. As someone said before, theory is great, but the reality in practice is a completely different world.

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A fair point

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I will admit that BLM is lacking in a lot of utility. Especially in this expansion. In ARR, quite a few classes lacked utility, but now, everyone but the BLM seems to have something.

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I mean, sure, we have cross class virus and eye for an eye (the latter being more useful); but Lethagy is largely useless. Apocastasis (I can never spell it) is good, but its not as essential as, say dragon kick (which boosts the dps of a 2nd monk) - and you have Dragoon with Disembowel and Battle Litany, and Ninja with Trick Attack. All are really good examples of DPS utility. I certainly think, given how movement impaired BLM are they should be able to compete DPS wise.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

For big adds, yes. For small adds, it's a waste of Aetherflow, mana and time to do it. Though, if both were forced to turn off the boss, then yes, the SMN would gain more due to DoTs ticking.

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That is why I mentioned adds with more HP so you can just apply another set of DoT's.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

His name started with Wurs or something along those lines. I'll see if I can check when I get online tonight and let you know.

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I should be online an hour or so, hopefully :)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Weak adds are highly dependent on behavior, but almost always dealt with by BLM as well/better than anyone else.

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Did you level up playing only ARR content with ARR only skills?
The only time now black mage shine at killing weak adds is when they are stacked enough to flare them. other than that black mage are awful at killing single target weak adds because scathe is shit, they die before you can cast fire IV and most of the time if you cast fire I, It will land and deal 2.5k damage when the add has 5-10% hp left

About low max HP adds being troublesome to kill with BLM ...

Yes, it is more troublesome than before by a long shot. However, this is part of the higher skill cap, you have to coordinate and strategize with your static (if you're in a PUG, sorry) so casts aren't wasted. It's rough and you will lose a cast here or there depending on the content but it's workable. Honestly, SMN is even worse at these phases unless you can Deathflare multiple enemies so it doesn't bother me too much.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

About low max HP adds being troublesome to kill with BLM ...

Yes, it is more troublesome than before by a long shot. However, this is part of the higher skill cap, you have to coordinate and strategize with your static (if you're in a PUG, sorry) so casts aren't wasted. It's rough and you will lose a cast here or there depending on the content but it's workable. Honestly, SMN is even worse at these phases unless you can Deathflare multiple enemies so it doesn't bother me too much.

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You're better off staying on the boss unless your static asign you to kill a specific add like the ones in Floor 4 Phase 2. For ravana i dont even look at the spirit gana and i can only cast one fire IV before the moon gana die. So if by coordination you mean *dont attack this one add, leave it to the blm* then sure i guess.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Did you level up playing only ARR content with ARR only skills?
The only time now black mage shine at killing weak adds is when they are stacked enough to flare them. other than that black mage are awful at killing single target weak adds because scathe is shit, they die before you can cast fire IV and most of the time if you cast fire I, It will land and deal 2.5k damage when the add has 5-10% hp left

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With no party coordination, you're right. But which is a bigger loss for the party, the monk using a shoulder tackle to a distant mob and hitting it with a couple pops, then running back to the boss, or the BLM swapping targets to pop the add down and back onto the boss seamlessly?

That's exactly what I mean. In Ravana my priority when choosing my next F4 as BLM is Moons with 40% or higher HP > regular butterflies far away from the group that melee aren't going to get > Ravana > help if shit's hitting the fan.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I don't want the class to be OP at all.

Snip

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I Hate when I cast Flare then Transpose Im Still in Astral Fire. Because Flare has a delay after you cast it, if you cast transpose You go into Astral Ice then right back into Astral Fire because Flare popped. So after casting Flare its imperative that a wait to make sure Flare goes off before I use Transpose or else Im standing still looking stupid waiting for mana to regen so I need to Convert/pot (if I haven't already).

Pretty sure it was the gigantic spell speed nerf, while smn isn't penalized for it as much, it isn't qoL, it's fundamental mechanics of the class, every boss has a bunch of movement in this expansion, which obviously favors the Smn.

The bottom line is, you can still do it, but when you're losing stacks, running around, losing enochain + other things, the smns dots will continue to tick while you are struggling to get a cast off. These are the facts at this point in time, play what you will.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

With no party coordination, you're right. , the monk using a shoulder tackle to a distant mob and hitting it with a couple pops, then running back to the boss, or the BLM swapping targets to pop the add down and back onto the boss seamlessly?

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Which add would that be? Because both the spirit gana and the adds from Floor 4 run in melee range and the adds in floor 1 spawn on the boss

As for your But which is a bigger loss for the party comment. It depend. If your fire IV get interupted. that is 4-7k damage wasted. If that interuption force you to spam fire I, That is 1-2k less damage per cast compared to fire IV aswell as costing 400 more mana locking you out of your fouth fire IV. Wasting another 4-7k damage.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Which add would that be? Because both the spirit gana and the adds from Floor 4 run in melee range

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You mean AoE range of the boss?