Healers tanking low level dungeons

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

"This is all conjecture. You're not listening to anything at this point, but merely looking for something to pick apart and use in a rebuttal."

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To be perfectly fair, the pair of you are doing exactly the same thing.

Here's the fact of the matter.

Some people run into a low level dungeon with the intent to speed run it like WP circa 2.1 bolting ahead and pulling everything that moves and completely ignoring a tanks pleas for help.

On the other hand, you may be content to run at any given pace and help a tank out, who then proceeds to mindlessly spam fracture on a single target with no response to your communication attempts at all. Your potential help is just further wasted time, it's a lost cause.

I'm sure everyone here is sensible enough to realize the middle ground is where 95% of runs go.

Maybe you don't understand what conjecture is. The main points I've made:

• Tank stood for long periods of time doing nothing
• Tank acted like he didn't know what was going on (this one kind of is)
• The trash mobs are incredibly weak, so I pulled them rather than wait on him
• Any job can tank just as well as a "tank" in the beginner dungeons
• He was a gladiator, which has no moves other than sprint to use up all TP in a low level dungeon, which I never saw him use
• I could see him at full MP, he wasn't waiting on that
• He never said anything in chat, I did
• I don't blame him or call him a bad tank
• I don't consider what I did wrong

The main points other people have made:

• This is why there are bad tanks at end game
• He could have become a good tank had I instructed him
• Only tanks are allowed to tank
• He was wrong
• There is only one acceptable way to play or else you're wrong
• If you don't instruct new people or anyone not playing that way of the right way to play, then you're wrong
• This game is like a cult

I hear exactly what you're saying, and I disagree and state my reason, or ask for your reason. The response is basically "because that's the way it is," or "because what you're doing is making bad tanks (this is conjecture, btw)." Things worked just fine my way, and for all I know the tank was happy that things turned out this way, since he never said anything (some more conjecture for you).

First off, if you're so justified in what you did, there's little reason to be defensive about it. I said what I said to make a point, and work a little psychology on you as well. I apologize for that and only that, but the fact remains that you've taken a defensive stance on what you felt was a good move for the situation. Were it actually the right thing to do, then there'd be little reason to take the defensive. But at this point, I'm just being fecetious in saying that.

If he was so truly unresponsive, then no, I won't disagree with your actions. And no, never once did I say only tanks can tank. I pride myself of being able to tank as a Bard, the weakest DPS. But just because I can doesn't mean I will the moment a tank hesitates or runs into trouble, but perhaps I'm more patient than I ought to be. The only time I'll tank outside of actually queuing as a tank is if the tank goes down, or in special cases where I can simply do my part to intercept something my tank might miss, or to ease his burden. And even then, it's never done spitefully. I get your point, really I do. Healers aren't weak at all. We can take a few hits and keep doing what we do best. But fact is, we're healers. Carts don't pull horses, horses pull carts. This means, simply: tanks don't heal, and healers don't tank. Maybe they can, but that is not what the role or class is built around.

I will retract my statement that by not communicating you made him into a bad tank. That was harsh in delivery. But the core of it stands. If you're the experienced player and you don't make an effort to help those who are coming up, then you can't complain when there's one more fresh 50 who doesn't know his role properly. No, none of us are responsible for each and every other player, and some simply can't be taught. Again, not a fault of our own. But the community is built or destroyed by communication and cooperation. If we all go in selfishly pursuing our own interests and ready to step over each other just for the sake of speed, then we deserve to fail.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I may really just dodge the DF for my tank jobs. I've only got 10 more levels to cap on both anyway, and lots of leve allowances. I can only imagine what kind of hell I might get into if I end up in Stone Vigil and people are pulling while I'm still trying to figure the best way to separate the patrols from everything else.

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I missed this earlier, but yes, like Zedd said, I'm happy to help however I can. I'll be the first to say I'm not the world's greatest tank. But that's what I started as. If nothing else, I know the basics, and I know how to be patient and do the most important job of the role - mitigate threats to the party. Seek me out anytime. I'll be glad to help :)

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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No, he's being a bad example by doing that. A healer who is explaining things to the tank, how bosses work, which moves and combos work better for aggro gain, is teaching the tank well. One who is just running ahead is being, pardon my french, a dumbass, and needs to stop entering lower level dungeons if they want dungeons to go faster.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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Ellatrix, do you know who you remind me of? I can't recall the name, but do you remember the "bad" guy of the Lancer quests? The one who's idea of being a true Lancer was to be unwavering in the face of danger, but was really just reckless. I mean no disrespect by that, and I certainly do acknowledge your ability. But this isn't a matter of doing something because you can, to help teach another. This was purely "you're taking too long, step aside."

I've got nothing against Spartan training, and I certainly believe in the value of taking the hard road. I'm not good at the game because I'm some kind of prodigy, I'm good at it purely through hard work. In the case of healing, I personally asked FC members to put me through a "Hell Run" of Stone Vigil for the first time. Tank in crafting gear. A Bard super-kiting. And me in a Glacial Coat - pre Glamours. It was hell. Fun, but hell. But this was something coordinated among us in order to push me to learn. Controlled chaos if you will.

The previously mentioned scenario by Stouter was NOT that. The tank was unresponsive and taking too long for reasons unknown. So he pulled instead. Maybe it worked out and that's great, but it wasn't him saying "hey, let me show you something that might help" (and no, he doesn't HAVE to say that, so let that not be a point to contest), no, this was him stepping over the tank and assuming the role himself. Sure, it worked out, and maybe everyone walked away from that satisfied. But look at his posts, carefully please, and notice how much of it amounts to justification of actions taken that are in fact, largely outside of the realm of his primary abilities. No, this is not "tanks tank because they're tanks" or some such nonsense. But this is saying that there's little to be learned when you're shoved aside and someone just takes over. Maybe some can, but let's be realistic here; most wouldn't learn. Call me cynical if you will.

I cut this from my previous post purely for length, but there's a very good point to be made in it:

I used to work on aircraft in the military. I had trouble with ground refueling operations in the beginning. I was the worst. As much as one NCO wanted to push me aside and do it so that we'd be done faster, another who became one of my greatest teachers did something both worse and better: He stuck me on nothing but refuels for 2 solid weeks. That. SUCKED. But I became a bloody guru at it. I was training new people on it my final day. . . Had I been pushed aside way back when, what would I have learned?

I'm NOT satisfied with mediocrity. Which is exactly why I wouldn't foster it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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Snarky response then slight backpedaling before getting back on point, well played.

But then you stick with how things should be done because that's the way they should be done. Healer dies in a boss fight, you should wipe. Even if you were able to finish off the boss by kiting after the other three people had died, you should have just wiped and done the fight the "right way."

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

But look at his posts, carefully please, and notice how much of it amounts to justification of actions taken that are in fact, largely outside of the realm of his primary abilities. No, this is not "tanks tank because they're tanks" or some such nonsense. But this is saying that there's little to be learned when you're shoved aside and someone just takes over. Maybe some can, but let's be realistic here; most wouldn't learn. Call me cynical if you will.

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Maybe they didn't learn the other way, and this is the way that actually hits home. Again you use conjecture, feel free to accuse me of doing the same. My point remains that you don't need a tank class tanking lowbie dungeons, and the tank isn't the only job in the group that can lead a party. Deflect and insult, accuse me of being defensive again, that seemed to work well.

Ok, enough Stouter. Seriously. You made a decision and you feel justified in it. Some agree. Some disagree. I disagree. Let's not sit here and pick things apart for petty rebuttals. And don't try to strip the points I've made down to something so banal as "sticking to how it should be done". Believe me, thinking on my feet to get the job done is something I excel at, whether I like it or not. It's a good skill to have, but it's a poor thing to use as justification for one's actions, right or wrong. If you think I've been insulting you, you're again wrong. There's no room or reason to be so petty here. I disagree with your actions, and that's the beginning and end of it. There's nothing worth insulting you over. I however do retain my previous statement that if what you did was so right, you would not feel the need to defend it so strongly, nor justify it. Again, not an insult, merely a solid stance on my statement. Take it as you will.