3.0: Elemental Weakness/Resistance?

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

Knight should have been the other tank job in this case.
Paladin is definitely a tank job.

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Knight is Paladin as far as the Japanese are concerned.

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All ranting aside, the Elemental Wheel is necessary because this is a Final Fantasy game, the Elemental Wheel has always been part of Final Fantasy from the very beginning, the Black Mage job has always, historically, been very closely tied in with the Elemental Wheel, and the entire game is themed around the very concept of the Elemental Wheel while mysteriously leaving it absent from the one aspect of the game where it really matters.

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Your argument is pretty sound. I can't argue with that logic. Maybe if there is some kind of wild sweeping change of class / job system, ele wheel may come back but I also have a creeping suspicion that it's still not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Knight is Paladin as far as the Japanese are concerned.

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Really? I always thought they were different, and the FF Wikia has them listed as being two separate entries.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Knight_%28Job%29
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin_%28Job%29

I suppose they are interchangeable in a couple of games (like FFI), but there seems to be a distinction in FFIX, with Steiner being Knight and Beatrix being Paladin. But one thing's for sure. This is definitely a topic I should look into on my own time. Not here in this thread as it's unrelated, but still.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Your argument is pretty sound. I can't argue with that logic. Maybe if there is some kind of wild sweeping change of class / job system, ele wheel may come back but I also have a creeping suspicion that it's still not worth it.

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Well as long as you can respect the validity of my argument, then I can respect your feelings as well.

Simple solution for BLMs, give us a lv55 or 60 skill that flips the attunement of our spells. All traits would remain the same except Fire and Ice would flip. We'd spam B1 instead of F1, and use F3 to regen MP.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

You seem to be forgetting some things.

First and foremost, there are already bosses in the game that are heavily resistant to various types of melee damage. Turn 2 of First Coil is a prime example of this.

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Bosses such ass? Turn 2 is your choice of WHAT to make the boss weak too. Each Node controls a different aspect of the boss. You choose the path....

Other mobs have Melee resistances down only because jobs can apply a debuff to it so they can do extra damage. The same way a job can apply Magic resistance down so Mages can do extra damage.
There is nothing that is RESISTANT to Piercing, Blunt, Slashing or Magic outside of T2, and the Mechanics of Leviathan that I can think of at the moment. Am I forgetting something?

FFXI elemental wheel........ 95% of all cases cast Thunder and Ice... repeat for profit. Unless it is resistant to Thunder cast Blizz and Fire. Oh its weakness is Water??? Cast thunder anyway!!!!! The only ime you stopped casting Thunder and Blizzard was if the mob was highly resistant to Thunder or Ice, or out right absorbed them. Oooh so strategic!
If you have 6 spells that do the same EXACT thing, what is the difference from casting Earth 4, vs casting Thunder 4? How are these 2 actions diff from each other?
Elemental wheel = A false perception of "choice" when you are really doing the same exact thing. All it is doing is changing the graphics for you so you can feel better.....Cause now you have 6 spells taking up space that do the same exact thing........

And what content are certain jobs excluded from in FFXIV??? Currently no matter the job, content can be cleared just fine. Start adding "resistances" to every boss, that will go out the window and make Duty Finder a nightmare.

@HakuroDK (On PS3 browser so multi-quoting is hard. This is inresponse to Pg 6)

In FFXI and FFXIV the Japanese versions do in fact call Paladin Knight.

WHM in the series has had access to Aero so they have in fact had elemental spells natively.

BLM in the series I believe has never had access to all elements in a single game outside of FFXI. Their staples were the Fire, Blizzard and Thunder line of spells. Chck out FFwiki.

FFXIV brought back the familiar BLM from the series and reworked it which is awesome in my opinion. I don't see how adding an elemental wheel will help the game really. As BLM we spam Fire spells for damage and Blizzard spells for MP recovery. If we add an elemental wheel we'll just be doing the same thing with other elements so it doesn't change actual gameplay. If they change BLM to be like FFXI's and give them all elements then we're clogging up the skill lists with abilities that won't be used on some fights. I'd rather have new abilities that I can use on all fights.

Besides, in FFXI unless a monster was immune or highly resistant to them you'd only really be using Blizzard/Thunder spells and that game did have an elemental wheel. In earlier games in the series it was almost always better to use your strongest spell over the elementally appropriate one. For example just before you fight Krakken in FFIII you obtain Blizzaga. Krakken is weak to thunder spells but takes the most damage from Blizzaga, casting Thundara only after your Blizzaga MP runs out.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

In FFXI and FFXIV the Japanese versions do in fact call Paladin Knight.

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This. Paladin to us is ナイト (Knight) to the Japanese.

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WHM in the series has had access to Aero so they have in fact had elemental spells natively.

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From an MMO design perspective, it's also important to note that even healer classes should have access to some form of damaging spells. This was an easy call to make when they tied WHM to conjurers.

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BLM in the series I believe has never had access to all elements in a single game outside of FFXI. Their staples were the Fire, Blizzard and Thunder line of spells. Chck out FFwiki.

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This. Black Magic in general was basically assorted tiers of Fire, Thunder and Blizzard. FF6 was pretty well remembered for screwing you over because of that (especially the boss in the tower of fanatics if you were unlucky enough for him to set his barrier to water, wind or earth and happened to get him into that HP threshold where he no longer changed his barrier).

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FFXIV brought back the familiar BLM from the series and reworked it which is awesome in my opinion. I don't see how adding an elemental wheel will help the game really. As BLM we spam Fire spells for damage and Blizzard spells for MP recovery. If we add an elemental wheel we'll just be doing the same thing with other elements so it doesn't change actual gameplay. If they change BLM to be like FFXI's and give them all elements then we're clogging up the skill lists with abilities that won't be used on some fights. I'd rather have new abilities that I can use on all fights.

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Agreed. The fact BLM's spells flow as they go through their rotation is very well-designed. They really took the best aspects of modern mage design and managed to make nearly all skills universally useful.

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Besides, in FFXI unless a monster was immune or highly resistant to them you'd only really be using Blizzard/Thunder spells and that game did have an elemental wheel. In earlier games in the series it was almost always better to use your strongest spell over the elementally appropriate one. For example just before you fight Krakken in FFIII you obtain Blizzaga. Krakken is weak to thunder spells but takes the most damage from Blizzaga, casting Thundara only after your Blizzaga MP runs out.

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This, too.

What if instead of the Wheel they used the Elemental Field concept from the chrono series?

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Originally Posted by Velox

It's too late for that now as classes were reworked so that the elemental skills were split between conjurer and thaumaturge.

I prefer it this way.

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A solution could be giving all elemental spells back to CNJ and give the THM the Astral and Umbral spells back.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

In 1.0 had both resistance but BLMs had all the element spells so if u encounter an enemy with a elemental resistance you just change the spell.

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No
Before job-system: All element spells were on CNJ (except the Astral/umbral spells)
After job-system: THM/BLM got Fire, Lightning and Ice spells. Lightning spells were single target spells, Fire spells were AoE spells and Ice spells were Crowd Control spells (Bind, Heavy)

Fight against single target? use Lightning
Fight against many targets? Use fire and keep an Eye on the MP bar
The element of the target? not important

How nostalgic, I like it...
In 1.xx we had some very good suggestions about element wheel, even in 2.0 BETA there was a great discussion ongoing.
I just fear all those good postings are lost, once rejected it seems SE is forgetting about them.

About job lockouts: we already have them, if you like to speedrun you need that and that. its even so far to be kicked out from groups! The fun ends when this happens in dungeonfinder groups.