Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

I remember having problems joining parties in Eden's Gate Savage PF in early weeks as an AST because of the problems it had with low healing potencies at launch which made things like basic w2w pulls in dungeons virtually impossible (until they buffed potencies on savage patch day) which led to some parties outright locking slots to whm+sch, or asking to swap to SCH.

It's unfortunate that I've gone from loving this class to suddenly finding it not at all enjoyable anymore, but I think it's the Shadowbringers 2.0 effect.

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Iirc it didn't just have lower healing potencies, it also had MP issues.
Since they reworked Celestial Opposition to no longer extend your buffs and reworked the cards to only provide damage AST had no way to increase their MP gain outside of Lucid Dreaming anymore and couldn't even extend that regen, so AST ended up being the only healer that required more piety to not straight up run out of MP.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

I played 90% astro (when I was healing) this expansion because it's the most active and variable healer, so the "why" is a subset of players enjoys it more than the other options atm

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Cool and I don’t mind people playing astro but as we can see with the astro clear numbers why hurt your hands playing the job when a whm drooling on his keyboard is more effective in a decent number off cases. I was a astro main back in the days but even I don’t wanna play the job anymore.

AST is the perfect example of a class where if you don’t reward players for higher complexity then nobody is actually going to play it


I’m not even going to mention that AST’s complexity is garbage and basically amounts to “punish console players” but even still if you make players play yugioh to do almost 20% less damage than whatever WHM is doing then as we can see nobody is going to play it

AST would be so much less horrible to play if it’s goal wasn’t to smash several minutes worth of cards and cooldowns into a 10 second window leaving nothing but monotony, disappointment and finger cramp for the other 110 seconds =/

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

AST would be so much less horrible to play if it’s goal wasn’t to smash several minutes worth of cards and cooldowns into a 10 second window leaving nothing but monotony, disappointment and finger cramp for the other 110 seconds =/

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Yeah.

Playing AST casually with hitting cards on cd rather than saving them is fine.

But trying to squeeze as much as possible into buffs for optimizing is pain.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

Yeah.

Playing AST casually with hitting cards on cd rather than saving them is fine.

But trying to squeeze as much as possible into buffs for optimizing is pain.

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Honestly they don’t even need to make cards AOE, since they don’t seem to want to bring sleeve draw back just revert the changes on draw having charges and delete minor arcana, redraw and trashtrodyne

Suddenly your burst isn’t a mess, you aren’t actively punished for using cards outside of the overfull 2 minute burst window and since the two minute burst window is now only 2 cards, star and div you really don’t need lightspeed for it anymore

It was kinda interesting to see how much astro has fallen from its glory days back in Stormblood. Sure the balance by and far the best card but there was a certain satisfaction you got when you got dealt a bad set of cards and you were able to make the most of it.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

It was kinda interesting to see how much astro has fallen from its glory days back in Stormblood. Sure the balance by and far the best card but there was a certain satisfaction you got when you got dealt a bad set of cards and you were able to make the most of it.

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The funny thing is anyone with a brain could have seen this coming when they decided to give draw charges because all that was ever going to do was make the entire class play like a console player trying to play around pre 5.3 sleeve draw

Man they really did screw up minor arcana again though when they came then just aoe versions of their stormblood iterations. Part of me is worried about the 7.0 card rework but it’s hard to think that they can go any lower but I’ve been proven wrong in that aspect before.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Man they really did screw up minor arcana again though when they came then just aoe versions of their stormblood iterations. Part of me is worried about the 7.0 card rework but it’s hard to think that they can go any lower but I’ve been proven wrong in that aspect before.

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Regarding the "7.0 card rework", I haven't seen a description of the changes as yet. To be fair, I would assume that there is a good chance that cards are going to be affected, but I don't think anyone has confirmed that as yet.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Regarding the "7.0 card rework", I haven't seen a description of the changes as yet. To be fair, I would assume that there is a good chance that cards are going to be affected, but I don't think anyone has confirmed that as yet.

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Given that most of the complaints about AST is directed towards the card system in some way or another, it's a fair bet that the card system will be changed in some way. Although whether it's a good or a bad change remains to be seen, as is the extent of the changes.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Given that most of the complaints about AST is directed towards the card system in some way or another, it's a fair bet that the card system will be changed in some way. Although whether it's a good or a bad change remains to be seen, as is the extent of the changes.

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Exactly AST’s healing kit (outside of being too strong like all healing kits) is the one good and coherent thing about it, it’s about the only healer that is very thematic with its healing with quite a few skills being delayed heals

If they aren’t going to change the oGCD bloat on healers AST’s healing kit I honestly wouldn’t change at all (except maybe nerf the healing up buff on neutral, it doesn’t need a healing up buff, it’s already too strong)

As someone late to doing the role quests for healer in EW, man healer has the most breezy time. Same applies to doing normal difficulty content. And from my own limited experience in savage/extreme, I can't imagine it being more than that in ultimate. As all you have is 1 spell to deal a chunk of damage, 1 dot, a buff spell for yourself and/or the party, and a bunch of heals/shields. Sure the window narrows for weaving and rotation and whatever as you race against enrage, but its not like playing a red-dps where the rotation is way more involved. Even as simple as summoner is, playing a healer feels simpler where the only difficulty comes from the people in your party getting hit by stuff that could have been easily avoided.

And thats not a slight against other people who play healer a lot. As it just feels like I am not really mentally engaging with the content, that I am mentally disconnected from it when I am playing healer.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

As someone late to doing the role quests for healer in EW, man healer has the most breezy time. Same applies to doing normal difficulty content. And from my own limited experience in savage/extreme, I can't imagine it being more than that in ultimate. As all you have is 1 spell to deal a chunk of damage, 1 dot, a buff spell for yourself and/or the party, and a bunch of heals/shields. Sure the window narrows for weaving and rotation and whatever as you race against enrage, but its not like playing a red-dps where the rotation is way more involved. Even as simple as summoner is, playing a healer feels simpler where the only difficulty comes from the people in your party getting hit by stuff that could have been easily avoided.

And thats not a slight against other people who play healer a lot. As it just feels like I am not really mentally engaging with the content, that I am mentally disconnected from it when I am playing healer.

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Welcome to the healer sub forums entire problem with healers

We would like classes who’s skill ceiling isn’t their skill floor and give us a means to engage with them that doesn’t amount to 11111211111111 while watching Netflix on the other screen

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Welcome to the healer sub forums entire problem with healers

We would like classes who’s skill ceiling isn’t their skill floor and give us a means to engage with them that doesn’t amount to 11111211111111 while watching Netflix on the other screen

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Which I don't blame you all and its appreciated you do play healers. Like I agree the solution isn't difficulty in the fights, it should be from having a meaningful rotation that isn't the black mage equivalent of spaming ice 3 and thunder 3. Like I just can't help but think of his stance against dots of, "Well if your not applying dots what are you doing?" and the easiest counter is dpsing/healing/rezzing, like if I could give healer's some semblance of old summoner's kit I would as it would at least make for meaningful gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Which I don't blame you all and its appreciated you do play healers. Like I agree the solution isn't difficulty in the fights, it should be from having a meaningful rotation that isn't the black mage equivalent of spaming ice 3 and thunder 3. Like I just can't help but think of his stance against dots of, "Well if your not applying dots what are you doing?" and the easiest counter is dpsing/healing/rezzing, like if I could give healer's some semblance of old summoner's kit I would as it would at least make for meaningful gameplay.

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I can’t speak for everyone but many of us stopped healing and continue to talk about it so that we can go back to healing. Several others have said as much before, though there are some willing to brave the storm anyway. Kudos to them. I have no idea how they manage. I try so hard to put up with it just out of the love for the visual design of Sage, and it makes me hate playing the game, in PVE at least.

Indeed I kinda stopped healing overall after getting everything from the latest raid tier with the exceptions of criterions. Though most;y I've just been doing roulettes as the ain so mostly tank for the gil though I wish the payouts were just a bit higher.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Indeed I kinda stopped healing overall after getting everything from the latest raid tier with the exceptions of criterions. Though most;y I've just been doing roulettes as the ain so mostly tank for the gil though I wish the payouts were just a bit higher.

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I just do PVP if I log in. I don’t do anything else. Haven’t done the 6.55 stuff and I’ll wait to see if I even want to play DT before I do.

The sad thing criterion savage is probably the closest they’ve gotten to making healers heal However,given how crappy the rewards are and all that stuff that has already discussed there is basically no one really doing it. I did some SGE healing the past days in there and there are some parts that are frantic but it’s mostly with the trash sadly.

I can only imagine what the outrage if you had criterion savage adds anywhere else in the game. The big adds do about 40k auto attack damage on the tank before you factor in defensives. (For reference sake, omega beetle autos in TOP hit for about 40k each as well. Then in Sildah savage, you have that dullahan patrol add who puts a 30 second bleed on you and then buffs his autos. In rokkan, you have that ninja add that does huton and then rapid fires shuriken at a random person while having to dodge all the wind if you don't kill him fast enough.

There's not a whole lot to these but they are still more nuanced and exciting than the run of the mill trash.

Even if Criterion and Criterion Savage were thriving new forms of content, I do not accept "Fun in this content, but nowhere else" as an acceptable compromise to the glaring flaws in the design of healers. Not to suggest that you're implying the opposite, but for anyone reading, please do not mistake those points as "If Criterion were more active, healer problems would be resolved."

The role is not Dps that has some heals it is HEALER. If you want more complex dps rotations there is a role specifically designed for just that. What Healers need is to be kept busy doing what the role was meant to do HEAL. Too many oGCD's make healing too easy to do without stopping dps. We need new interesting healing mechanics or other support abilities to be using instead of spamming dps. God forbid we have to Esuna something anymore. I hate this meta where tank and healer are just slightly worse dps with some support abilities.

why yes i've never done any high end content or anything beyond my braindead easy roulettes, how could you tell?

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

The role is not Dps that has some heals it is HEALER. If you want more complex dps rotations there is a role specifically designed for just that. What Healers need is to be kept busy doing what the role was meant to do HEAL. Too many oGCD's make healing too easy to do without stopping dps. We need new interesting healing mechanics or other support abilities to be using instead of spamming dps. God forbid we have to Esuna something anymore. I hate this meta where tank and healer are just slightly worse dps with some support abilities.

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“We need new interesting healing interactions”

Like what, you’ve necroed like 4 healer threads to argue that we should be pure healers and presented literally zero examples of what could actually be done, do you think we haven’t argued on this point ad nauseum already

Now to be fair, I'm the one who necroed these threads instead of making new ones since people always complained about that sort of thing.

That being said, it always wrong to look at things as "what can I do as a healer?" instead of questions like "what I can do as a White Mage? "What I can do as a Scholar?" Etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

The role is not Dps that has some heals it is HEALER. If you want more complex dps rotations there is a role specifically designed for just that. What Healers need is to be kept busy doing what the role was meant to do HEAL. Too many oGCD's make healing too easy to do without stopping dps. We need new interesting healing mechanics or other support abilities to be using instead of spamming dps. God forbid we have to Esuna something anymore. I hate this meta where tank and healer are just slightly worse dps with some support abilities.

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You are literally a meme I joke about.

> Nobody asks for DPS-level rotations
> "gO pLaY a DpS"

Classic.

Well, I guess they do kind of have a point. HW SCH is more complex than current SMN. :)

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Originally Posted by Aravell

> Nobody asks for DPS-level rotations
> "gO pLaY a DpS"

Classic.

Well, I guess they do kind of have a point. HW SCH is more complex than current SMN. :)

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Finding the log on button is more complex than modern SMN

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Originally Posted by Aravell

> Nobody asks for DPS-level rotations
> "gO pLaY a DpS"

Classic.

Well, I guess they do kind of have a point. HW SCH is more complex than current SMN. :)

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Doesn't have to go back that far IMHO. Even ShB's 2.5s cast time present more decision making than today's silly universal 1.5s cast time.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“We need new interesting healing interactions”

Like what, you’ve necroed like 4 healer threads to argue that we should be pure healers and presented literally zero examples of what could actually be done, do you think we haven’t argued on this point ad nauseum already

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Didn't necro anything, I go to new posts and never comment on anything not in the top 5. I did give examples in the other threads, but I'm also not a game designer, I don't think I have to give exact examples or else its not possible. Literally the only MMO where the healer is expected to dps for over 90% of their skills.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You are literally a meme I joke about.

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Good one! Also I don't care

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

Didn't necro anything, I go to new posts and never comment on anything not in the top 5. I did give examples in the other threads, but I'm also not a game designer, I don't think I have to give exact examples or else its not possible. Literally the only MMO where the healer is expected to dps for over 90% of their skills.

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And if you actually read the threads you would know we don’t like that design either, we just know enough about game design to know that “if press glare press medica 2 instead” doesn’t remotely solve this issue

More complex DPS kits can coexist with spending less time actually pressing them, I really don’t understand what’s so remotely hard to understand about this concept

an empowered phase that was:

healer'y (like a hp sacc and timed lock out for all hp regain to self for GCDx2.5)

committing - i liked the stance swap, cleric stance, was it?
- something strong, as your smn grade healer during with int/mnd swap.
- flip out the abilities...
-->> definately bloodborne style blood lilies for whm.
-->> astro with cleric stance spell converts like 'pulsar'... where gravity n.dawntrail becomes something that bounces mobs into clusters like bulbs of an hourglass... while orbiting each other and causing harm on collide....

more complex to implement:
- combinatorial casts
- arena enchantments (these drain lb gauge to provide 1x constant raid buff that group comp arranges).

linked support / hire: healers have backup, kupo. or grow horns on their head, and sulk about back cave of gridania. -- on big cooldown, healer summons a squadron member/generic pet (like an eureka orthos support egg...) tank for you and taunt for a bit, or play a role as might a duty support grade capability...
something you can dress a skin on within reason, and then use...

...but gwydion, kupo, we're not supposed to mention limit break / level cap quests in ff14, or the puppeteer class that could make

did you know:

'The shroud has long held back contracts with all sorts theyd not mention.

word is, the most sought after Garlean cheese uses cave mold from Gridania in its creation and aging.

So with contracts goes legend, and even cause of a city's starvation.

a 'warrior of darkness' once paid a month to sleep offline using a bag of such Gridanian cave fungus.

the hotellier so enraptured by his explaining it, and hos offering to make eulemore's finest for room and board.

unfortunately, it caused terrible crop blight.

both alcohols and cheeses improved, and it was the poor who starved.

this is why alphinaud went to eulemore, and they like the cheese, because fancy.

the warrior of darkness' actions were not appreciated by the shroud, but were opportune to overlook.

regardless of coverup, gridanian leadership were quick to dispatch call to aid, believing:

that none shall suffer mass famine unaided while we laze in bounty. laze in wealth, and plenty.

no, to assist refugee and displaced, is also diplomatic seeding, and a means of geoshaping.

it is why we are better, and why some costs are to be paid. it is what societal luddite calls aloof, out-of-touch, not in the here and now, or not on the same page as the commonest and often lowest denomination of man in behaviors.'

recommended dish: the 'bigger bismark on fridays', there is no eating fish on fridays in Gridania, because fish are eaten every other day."

-- written in lolipretian in what appears to be happiness ink and sharp fountain pen... it is titled: a luncheon, a sojourner's recounting of Shrouded cuisine -- puddingway

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Originally Posted by Aravell

> Nobody asks for DPS-level rotations
> "gO pLaY a DpS"

Classic.

Well, I guess they do kind of have a point. HW SCH is more complex than current SMN. :)

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I mean it's not hard to be more complex than current SMN. I'd even argue the existance of Energy drain, biolysis and a cast bar puts SCH on par with it for dps complexity.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And if you actually read the threads you would know we don’t like that design either, we just know enough about game design to know that “if press glare press medica 2 instead” doesn’t remotely solve this issue

More complex DPS kits can coexist with spending less time actually pressing them, I really don’t understand what’s so remotely hard to understand about this concept

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The playerbase has dealt with a decently complex job kit along with a decently complex fight design before, it's what Stormblood was. I don't understand why people keep thinking that we can only have one of either:

- A complex damage kit
- Higher healing requirements
- Complex fight design

We had all 3 in SB. SCH and AST retained a lot of their complexities in SB, I don't think anyone would consider content like Orbonne Monastery to be a joke in terms of healing requirements, and I don't think anyone can seriously claim that Thundergod Cid is a boring fight. That's just in casual content like alliance raids too. For savage, we had fights like O8S and O12S that have intricate mechanics like Forsaken and Hello, World, those 2 fights also had decent healing requirements and we did it all with healer job kits that retained complexity and nuance.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The playerbase has dealt with a decently complex job kit along with a decently complex fight design before, it's what Stormblood was. I don't understand why people keep thinking that we can only have one of either:

- A complex damage kit
- Higher healing requirements
- Complex fight design

We had all 3 in SB. SCH and AST retained a lot of their complexities in SB, I don't think anyone would consider content like Orbonne Monastery to be a joke in terms of healing requirements, and I don't think anyone can seriously claim that Thundergod Cid is a boring fight. That's just in casual content like alliance raids too. For savage, we had fights like O8S and O12S that have intricate mechanics like Forsaken and Hello, World, those 2 fights also had decent healing requirements and we did it all with healer job kits that retained complexity and nuance.

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You're forgetting how Stormblood was apparently Dark Souls level difficulty. Remember how simply getting through a leveling dungeon as a Scholar with two primary DOTs, Miasma II, Shadowflare, a meaningful Energy Drain, and Bane required months of intense gaming practice that only the most elite FFXIV players could hope to pull off?

Bumping this up again.

And like others have said, it's annoying that they keep taking stuff away from healers and just replacing it with more heals thus making everything redundant and really putting yourself into a designer corner and grave at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Bumping this up again.

And like others have said, it's annoying that they keep taking stuff away from healers and just replacing it with more heals thus making everything redundant and really putting yourself into a designer corner and grave at the same time.

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It's not only that they're removing things from healers and replacing it with more pointless heals, it's also that they're being hypocritical in terms on the roles.

Tanks? Can have healing, can have damage buttons, can have mitigation, can have debuffs, cannot have buffs.
DPS? Can have healing, can have damage buttons, can have mitigation, can have debuffs, can have buffs.
Healers? Can have healing, cannot have damage buttons, can have mitigation, cannot have debuffs, can have buffs.

Only healers cannot have damage buttons, only healer cannot have debuffs (Disable, Virus gone). DPS can step on the toes of every role, tanks are only restricted from having party buffs but can step all over the toes of healers. It's a dead-end of design because they completely blocked off 2 routes that the healer role can expand to, leaving only pointless healing and more mitigation, buffs are also locked to only SCH and AST, so WHM and SGE are suffering even more in terms of available design. It's honestly a mess.

Does anyone really even consider SCH worthy of the title “buff healer”, chain is literally the single most boring button of any of the in game buffs because while it’s objectively potent it’s even harder to see a 10% increase in crit chance than it is to see 6% damage up

I guess maybe you could argue it makes cramming ED’s into a window slightly more interesting which I guess makes it maybe a bit more interesting than searing light but ED itself is so weak feeling even that doesn’t feel remotely useful (also ignoring the fact that only one CS can be up on the boss at a time during casual content)

If you are gonna be a “buff healer” I feel like you should have at least 2-3 buffs, whether that be AST’s design of multiple short buffs, DNC’s design of a potent buff on one person constantly or BRD’s design of a weak buff with 100% uptime, SCH doesn’t remotely feel like a buff healer in practice