Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Yoshi P: Chill out guys.


LOL

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I will chill when I know WHM will be fine. Which most likely won't happen, but hey, whatever. Him dodging the question completely doesn't change anything for me; just makes it worse, actually.



On the topic of Benediction, you do know that people found that skill lackluster for quite some time, yes? Because it is compared to other such skills.

I guess our concerns mean nothing. Thanks Square for constantly dodging. *Claps*.

Dodge the WHM question.
No hope of a legit glamour log.

Just let me die.

I guess dodging the questions means a very small chance that any or most of our concerns have been addressed =/

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Originally Posted by javid

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Could you, in a succinct, non-hyperbolic manner explain in what way WHM is better than Ast or Sch? As in, what actual worth it has above the other two healers? Or how it is in any way intuitively designed? Please, defend Confession, stacks we have to watch on 3-7 party members. Or how Lilys are even useful or actually​ add to the job's function or fun factor?

So, what I'm wondering is...

Is the OP going to re-edit the post to say "Hey, we were told to chill and just deal with it until we reach max level in SB. That way, SE can figure out WTF to do with WHM...if they feel like it."

Because that's how I feel WHMs got treated this time around.

Well, that's that. Nearly 3000 posts gone to shit. 265 pages and going for a "lol calm down" response.

What a damn shame. Feel like I wasted a lot of my time giving my opinion for them to just not care.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I guess dodging the questions means a very small chance that any or most of our concerns have been addressed =/

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Let's be honest, if anything WERE to change with WHM, did you really believe it'd be by SB's release? Likely, if anything, they'll change it in a future patch if there's a big enough backlash. And I hope to hell there is.

The class favoritism is so blatant it's almost nauseating.

wow, this is an awful lot of dramatics and literally the reason why he said you all should calm down a bit.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

wow, this is an awful lot of dramatics and literally the reason why he said you all should calm down a bit.

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Which then provides no information to help do that. I don't think the internet works like he thinks it does...

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Originally Posted by javid

"Yoshi P has no idea what it takes to heal in this game..." For as long as I play this game I will never forget this quote, and this will always be why I will troll your kind

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I like you. You acknowledge what truly matters.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Honestly? No, I didn't. But you'd think if there were at least changes coming he'd acknowledge some of the things they were going to change in the question before giving a cop-out answer like "We know what we're doing, just wait until you get into those raids you're probably not going to get invited into." =/

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Let's be real, no matter what changes he made, WHM mains would still be screaming and kicking their way up and down the aisles if they weren't immediately above SCH and AST to such a degree that their utility is worthless. Much better to say as little as possible.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Because everyone is taking it out of context and only caring about the one-liner, try reading the entire response first.

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People only see what they want to see. What else is new?

YoshiP isn't wrong though we should calm down. After all no one buries a corpse when its still in its rigor mortis state :^) :^) :^)

Hahahahaha I kid I kid.

But no seriously. Get the shovels.

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Originally Posted by CrazyCapnMorgan

Let's be honest, if anything WERE to change with WHM, did you really believe it'd be by SB's release? Likely, if anything, they'll change it in a future patch if there's a big enough backlash. And I hope to hell there is.

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Honestly? No, I didn't. But you'd think if there were at least changes coming he'd acknowledge some of the things they were going to change in the question before giving a cop-out answer like "We know what we're doing, just wait until you get into those raids you're probably not going to get invited into." =/

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Originally Posted by Elamys

wow, this is an awful lot of dramatics and literally the reason why he said you all should calm down a bit.

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Telling people to calm down has never worked to calm anyone down, ever. /notevensarcasm

Because everyone is taking it out of context and only caring about the one-liner, try reading the entire response first.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

Y'all need to calm down a little. Not just for the White Mage, but we wanted to reiterate, we provided the latest build from the end of April to the Media event and we have made changes since then to all jobs. So, if we do mention about say a specific job or action, we might raise additional questions, what about this or that and more questions will be brought up. We are three days away from launch, so want to encourage everyone to calm down a bit. But of course, if you single out single actions you may not get the rationale behind changing things. We looked at the big picture, how would it play at level 70 and consider those things when making balance and adjustments. Once you get up to that cap and then jump into raid content, you might discover new things and understand more about certain actions and why they were done in a certain way. With the raid content and Savage, no matter what combination of jobs you have in your party we made sure that the difficulty level is not changed. Once you get to the actual content and you feel like there is a misalignment of balance, then we would encourage you to provide your feedback and thoughts. We want to encourage people to use the actions and use them first hand first.

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I mean... SE said stuff like this about WAR and BRD too...

doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I mean... SE said stuff like this about WAR and BRD too...

doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

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Third times a charm, don'tcha know.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Because everyone is taking it out of context and only caring about the one-liner, try reading the entire response first.

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Before anyone quotes from the above, it's copied from a Reddit post which the writer did say:

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Originally Posted by Crimonsette

I'm trying to do literal translation as they happen, so it's hopefully pretty close to the original. Not inserting my own thoughts in, just trying to type as fast as they talk!

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So if the wording is different then you remember, this is why.

Well, I guess with what we were given, or the lack thereof (or both, now that I think about it), I guess WHMs can rename the game...

"Final Fantasy 14: White Mage - The Fantasy that no player wanted or asked for."

It's made even more depressing when you realize that right in the beginning of the Conjurer quest lines, you are introduced to Sylphie. All she does is heal, and throughtout the CNJ quests, it's pointed out that THIS IS A BAD THING. Yet, what does Yoshi-P and his team want to do with WHM?

Then, 50-60 you're tasked with cleansing tainted aethers and becoming stronger in doing so...but they TAKE AWAY Esuna, which potentially means a WHM would not have the ability to purify, and give you nothing in which to "purify" or maintain a balance. Sure, you get stronger healing abilities, and that did complete the kit somewhat...just had nothing else.

This truly makes me have no confidence whatsoever that SE can change WHM for the better, both gameplay and lore wise.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Before anyone quotes from the above, it's copied from a Reddit post which the writer did say:
So if the wording is different then you remember, this is why.

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It's no different from my own version I wrote from what was read aloud. Don't be a denialist just for the sake of it.

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First of all, calm down. We want to reiterate that all the media tour information is not up-to-date information, from an April build, and that applies to all jobs, not just WHM. Singling out any single action or job, you won't understand the rationale behind any actions, especially not the job itself as a whole. We've looked at all the aspects of the jobs, mp usage, gcd, and others when looking at balancing. But you have to wait until you understand the impact of the changes with raid content to fully understand why the jobs are the way they are. With the savage mode of raid content, Omega, no matter what combinations of jobs you have, the difficulty level will not have any severe disparity with different compositions, so once you go into the content and see it for yourself, only then can you actually see what it's about, and if you still feel that there is a problem with balance then provide meaningful feedback at that time.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Because everyone is taking it out of context and only caring about the one-liner, try reading the entire response first.

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There's nothing to take out of context. He didn't adress the elephant in the room, that's what people are saying.

He basically told everyone that theory crafting and feedback is completly pointless until we are actually doing raid content live. And then, and only then, shall we voice our concerns if something's wrong.
But the thing is: we don't need to be doing 4.0 raid content to know that the lily mechanic is bad.

We already know that the press tour build was old and that numerical values were changed already. We already know that WHM will be viable. But viable doesn't mean good, nor does it mean on par with other healers jobs. And it doesn't mean either that the lily mechanic was drastically changed to be something cool.

Calm down WHMs.... calm down :D

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Originally Posted by CrazyCapnMorgan

Well, I guess with what we were given, or the lack thereof (or both, now that I think about it), I guess WHMs can rename the game...

"Final Fantasy 14: White Mage - The Fantasy that no player wanted or asked for."

It's made even more depressing when you realize that right in the beginning of the Conjurer quest lines, you are introduced to Sylphie. All she does is heal, and throughtout the CNJ quests, it's pointed out that THIS IS A BAD THING. Yet, what does Yoshi-P and his team want to do with WHM?
Then, 50-60 you're tasked with cleansing tainted aethers and becoming stronger in doing so...but they TAKE AWAY Esuna, which potentially means a WHM would not have the ability to purify, and give you nothing in which to "purify" or maintain a balance. Sure, you get stronger healing abilities, and that did complete the kit somewhat...just had nothing else.

This truly makes me have no confidence whatsoever that SE can change WHM for the better, both gameplay and lore wise.

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...so...now they're going to have their own job/class quests bite them in the ass...and all they can do is go white and say "calm down".

I'm not surprised that Yoshi simply said "please look forward to it," but I wish he didn't. The state of healers we were shown was real bad, that's why everyone was all upset. Just admitting that the build that we were shown was a bad version woulda been fine.

Let me get this right I remember hearing White Mages were for "Casual Players"..
A class that has about 21 abilities that only has the casual player in mind because it is consider "Easy"
A class built with the Casual Playerbase in mind, that is apparently the easiest "Healer". We can't complain or give feedback unless we do Raid Content.
Unless the player raids feedback is not needed? A game catered to the Casual, A class catered to the Casual, and apparently "Casuals" cant give feedback???

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

So let me get this right I remember hearing White Mages were for "Casual Players"..
So a class that has about 21 abilities that only has the casual player in mind because it is consider "Easy"
Our opinions do not matter until we do Raiding/Savage content.
So a class built with the Casual Playerbase in mind, that is apparently the easiest "Healer". We can't complain or give feedback on unless we do Raid Content.
So unless the player raids feedback is not needed? A game catered to the Casual, A class catered to the Casual, and apparently "Casuals" cant give feedback???

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Yoshi has never said this. What he DID say was that SAM was very strong, and a job for pros, leading some to believe that some classes are stronger based on their perceived difficulty of play. This has never been stated by any of the devs, certainly not specifically about WHM.

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Let me get this right I remember hearing White Mages were for "Casual Players"..
A class that has about 21 abilities that only has the casual player in mind because it is consider "Easy"
A class built with the Casual Playerbase in mind, that is apparently the easiest "Healer". We can't complain or give feedback unless we do Raid Content.
Unless the player raids feedback is not needed? A game catered to the Casual, A class catered to the Casual, and apparently "Casuals" cant give feedback???

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Yoshi never said WHM was casual. That's something we said because of it's weak but extremely simple toolkit.

It is still very worrying when he "Percieves Sam as a pro job"
A game catered to "Casuals"
Yet he wants players to do raid content/savage to understand actions and discover new ways of having these actions interact with other actions.
How is every player expected to Discover these new interactions?
How is every player suppose to give feedback and give thoughts when you dodge and deflect the question when asked?
Why do you have to do raiding content to understand? "More about a certain action and why they were done in a certain way"
Can he stop Dodging and Deflecting.

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Originally Posted by CrazyCapnMorgan

It's made even more depressing when you realize that right in the beginning of the Conjurer quest lines, you are introduced to Sylphie. All she does is heal, and throughtout the CNJ quests, it's pointed out that THIS IS A BAD THING. Yet, what does Yoshi-P and his team want to do with WHM?

Then, 50-60 you're tasked with cleansing tainted aethers and becoming stronger in doing so...but they TAKE AWAY Esuna, which potentially means a WHM would not have the ability to purify, and give you nothing in which to "purify" or maintain a balance. Sure, you get stronger healing abilities, and that did complete the kit somewhat...just had nothing else.

This truly makes me have no confidence whatsoever that SE can change WHM for the better, both gameplay and lore wise.

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The issue wasn't that she was just PURE HEALING. The issue was she wasn't drawing upon the aether of the land in order to do it. That is why she collasped. She was using her OWN aether in order to heal thinking sh would harm the Elementals in the Shroud.

Esuna isn't NEEDED to purify or cleanse the world of tainted aether. I seem to recall just spamming cure on things, and not using Esuna. Also, back to CNJR quests, you attacked the tainted aether and never once did you cast "esuna" in order to cleanse these. Lore is still intact.

Also, EVERY HEALING CLASS had their Esuna'esk ability taken from them, and Esuna wasn't gained from a class quest where you gain lore for earning it. All the CNJR quests were about drawing upon aether to use, where the girl DID NOT.

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Originally Posted by Trial By Water

Esumiyan
I once taught you that conjurers harness the power of nature that we might bring about change. Earth, wind, water, healing─the principle is no different.
For the art of mending, we draw on the boundless life force of nature and bestow it upon the wounded. Sylphie has never sought to borrow from that bounty.
Her power to heal stems from her own life force. The vital energies of mortals are, however, finite...and now that which I most feared has come to pass.
Her mother unwittingly took her own life through the continued use of her healing skills.
And Sylphie's aptitude for the art is, if anything, even greater. Thus it is not unexpected that she should reach the limits of her strength at a much earlier age.
If we do not intervene, this terrible tragedy will be repeated, and I for one could not bear to see the child suffer the same fate as her mother...

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First of all, thank you for a well worded question precisely addressing the concerns on WHM, Bayonne!

However, I found Naoki Yoshida's rambling, non-answer very disappointing. :(

Yes, we haven't played the job at 70 in new raid content, but the fact that a few weeks ago, the development team WASN'T EVEN CLOSE to addressing WHM's deficiencies does not lend confidence to the whole "wait and see" argument.

So either the development team completely redesigned how WHM functions in the span of a few weeks, added some form of raid utility, and fixed the lily system and confession stacks.. but won't talk about any of the changes..

OR they dropped the ball in the first place, are unwilling to admit their mistake, and are kicking the can hoping the complaints go away. I wonder which is more likely...

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

OR they dropped the ball in the first place, are unwilling to admit their mistake, and are kicking the can hoping the complaints go away. I wonder which is more likely...

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Obviously this is whats going on. The lily system is fundamentally flawed. They'd have to go back and reconsider everything not only about WHMs, but the other healers as well.
It's not an easy job I'm sure, but it's no excuse to brush off all of our feedback and complaints since the media tour. Seriously, I would have actually preferred a "no comment but we acknowledge your feedback" response over this. What he did here was completely invalidate every single thing we've said. As a WHM main, it feels freaking horrible to have all 2500+ posts of opinions stepped over and ignored until savage Omega...

We basically just wasted our time.

http://i.imgur.com/Qnfcr5R.jpg

From E3. Down from 300 to 250%. Napkin math has it at about +60 potency over current.

Edit: This is also the tooltip at Level 63.

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

First of all, thank you for a well worded question precisely addressing the concerns on WHM, Bayonne!

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That was the best thing I took from the Live Letter. They really showed they took our concerns to heart and it showed that they already conveyed our concerns to the developer team judging from Yoshi-P's reaction.

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Originally Posted by dark494

http://i.imgur.com/Qnfcr5R.jpg

From E3. Down from 300 to 250%. Napkin math has it at about +60 potency over current.

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60 potency is a huge increase for a spammable shield. I'm not sure why they're making Nocturnal AST sheilds so much stronger than SCH on average.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm not sure why they're making Nocturnal AST sheilds so much stronger than SCH on average.

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If N.AST shields were weaker, then they wouldn't be able to compete with SCH. Not even with Balance, now that SCH will have its own version of Battle Litany. The fairy is still an insanely good healing and mitigation tool.

So, it makes sense to give N.AST stronger shields, especially since it's pretty much their only mitigation tool with Collective Unconscious (and sometimes Bole, but, yeah...).
I even think that E4E is pretty much mandatory for N.AST, since Disable is gone.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If N.AST shields were weaker, then they wouldn't be able to compete with SCH ... fairy

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That's the problem with N.AST in general, trying to make it two jobs in one instead of giving it a unique identity or making the other two jobs in the role share more capabilities. Now they have a spammable shield that's almost as much potency as a critical Adlo (575 potency??) every time, that makes no damn sense.

Honestly, this expansion was their opportunity to completely go back to the drawing board with AST's stances. Something like Diurnal being the default, then you can turn on Nocturnal by spending gauge to provide a shield or something like that. That fixes the problem of the fairy by giving AST HOTs to keep healing while they apply a shield. It's a bit of a band-aid fix, but...I'm not being paid to do this.

Instead they decided to take away WHM's only reliable mitigation tool and make AST's shields all vastly superior to SCH's to "fix" things.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If N.AST shields were weaker, then they wouldn't be able to compete with SCH. Not even with Balance, now that SCH will have its own version of Battle Litany. The fairy is still an insanely good healing and mitigation tool.

So, it makes sense to give N.AST stronger shields, especially since it's pretty much their only mitigation tool with Collective Unconscious (and sometimes Bole, but, yeah...).
I even think that E4E is pretty much mandatory for N.AST, since Disable is gone.

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Ugh. I could get into how this is a result of ASTs flawed design, but what's the point if SE doesn't listen to us at all.

I wish that instead of rambling incoherently about raid scenarios and telling everyone to calm down yoshida would admit that they messed up in a big way. Which looking at all stolen whm skills and geting nothing back, looking at all the insane buffs and new utility toys the other healers got couldnt be clearer that they completely droped the ball.

rip whm :/.Sadly with yoshidas pissy atitiude I have no hope in this geting fixed at this stage.

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

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Well if 2.0 WAR and 3.0 AST are any indicators, we may get obscene buffs in later patches.

One could only hope though. ;-;

Honestly, it'll only be a matter of time before they can't avoid the issue regardless. The drop off for play of the job at 70 inevitable, the stigma around it will stop people from wanting to even bother leveling (Honestly, given the mess 61+ is, I wouldn't blame them), and the kicks/ridicule that I'm certain will happen of the WHM once it's set in stone how much weaker it is than the other(Clearly better built and superior) healers, will be the "wake up" call they need.

For now, we just have to wait and use new abilities to say they suck, I guess. Because Confessions could be super duper handy, and stoneskin might have been OP. -_-