Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

With less than 1200 SS I can do a easy 6 fire iv opener. 8 With convert

Hi All,

Just want to know if we are still aiming for Spell Speed and Crit?

Well at least for now, until more testing gets done, I do. The rotation also gets significantly less tight with more SS

I've always drilled in to my head not to use TC proc when the current debuff is more than 11seconds. Is giving away TC procs because of it a dps loss ?

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Originally Posted by GospelVhae

I've always drilled in to my head not to use TC proc when the current debuff is more than 11seconds. Is giving away TC procs because of it a dps loss ?

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Dps loss. You should always replace Fire IV with a Thundercloud if it'll tick twice (more pps). Since you can hold Thundercloud for 9 seconds, you can guarantee it'll tick thrice, so it's always a decent gain.

So I am about to make BLM my main by putting SpS on my gear. I know crit gives more damage, but I would rather have SpS materia 6 on all the good free slots for more consistent damage.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I know crit gives more damage

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No it's not.

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Originally Posted by Osh1mA

No it's not.

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Crit doesn't? By that I mean, I crit more often which increases my dps.

Edit: I am also noticing the 310 chest piece lacks spell speed which is going to hurt when I have to replace it.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

So I am about to make BLM my main by putting SpS on my gear. I know crit gives more damage, but I would rather have SpS materia 6 on all the good free slots for more consistent damage.

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Not too sure about CH VS DH.
Some reddit post had scaling for DH and it looked pretty nice. Might outdo crit now.
Not enough datapoints yet tho. Which I had the time to collect them :(

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Originally Posted by soslinky

I seem to be mistaken in preferring to use Sharp+F1. I did three Susano runs in a row using B3+UH opener and I ended up beating my previous DPS scores with Sharp+F1 by a huge margin. Spellspeed was at 1474.

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Oh? So the b3 enoch opener is indeed superior?

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Originally Posted by Blitz_Striker

Hi All,

Just want to know if we are still aiming for Spell Speed and Crit?

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hi Guys follow up on this?

Spell Speed is still king. I don't think we have enough data to tell if crit or DH is better.

I've just heard that Direct hit scales extremely well. I think it might end up with SS and DH.

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Originally Posted by Cherub

I've just heard that Direct hit scales extremely well. I think it might end up with SS and DH.

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It's a more linear stat.
Crit is quadratic- there should be a value at which crit overtakes DH permanently.
The quest is if we can hit that spot- we need a lot of points to get a good fit for the curve and try and get a semi-accurate intersection.

So apparently

Direcr hit is 1% per 38 and +25t bonus damage (static)

Crit is +1%/1% chance/damage per 108 (+ innate 5%)

Spell speed is -.01 on caster per 68-381.
So if your spell speed is 1781 its actually 1400.

We wont be seeing good old 2.64 cast times till 2300 spell speed or 2285 ss.

Seems like until we can get crit to 2500+ its better to go SS/ Direct hit since it scales stupidly well.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

So apparently

Direcr hit is 1% per 38 and +25t bonus damage (static)

Crit is +1%/1% chance/damage per 108 (+ innate 5%)

Spell speed is -.01 on caster per 68-381.
So if your spell speed is 1781 its actually 1400.

We wont be seeing good old 2.64 cast times till 2300 spell speed or 2285 ss.

Seems like until we can get crit to 2500+ its better to go SS/ Direct hit since it scales stupidly well.

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TY for the math. So on pieces that don't want SS, I should go direct hit.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

So apparently

Direcr hit is 1% per 38 and +25t bonus damage (static)

Crit is +1%/1% chance/damage per 108 (+ innate 5%)

Spell speed is -.01 on caster per 68-381.
So if your spell speed is 1781 its actually 1400.

We wont be seeing good old 2.64 cast times till 2300 spell speed or 2285 ss.

Seems like until we can get crit to 2500+ its better to go SS/ Direct hit since it scales stupidly well.

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If thats true wouldnt direct hit easily be better then spell speed now n far better then crit?

The thought did cross my mind but keep in mind in a real fight the actually matters speed > power in nearly every practical setting except lakahimi ex who is literally a dummy boss.

Im still assuming (due to our relatively long cast times) that we'll always need to aim for a spell speed break point until crit because nominal enough to warrant a weight observance.

When crit hits its stride by 2500+ spell speed and DH may become a choice in style iver necessity.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

{SNIP}
Seems like until we can get crit to 2500+ its better to go SS/ Direct hit since it scales stupidly well.

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How did you get your numbers?
I mean... 2500/108 =~ 23% chance/multiplier, so it results in 0.28*0.63-0.05*0.4=15.6%; (assuming base crit multiplier is 1.4)
2500/38 =~ 65.8, 0.658*0.25=16.45%.
Looks more like 3.5k (at 3.5k they both actually merge at +23% damage and that's with respect to base 364 so ~3.9k total pool between crit and DH).

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Originally Posted by Lodinn

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Crit still affects the crit damage, correct?
Not sure if you're accounting for that in your "napkin math" (forum math really) when trying to equate the expected value per spell of either source.
That would change the breakpoint (lowering the amount of crit needed, as not just the chance but also the crit damage is scaling with crit).

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Oh? So the b3 enoch opener is indeed superior?

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They're all within a couple of pps with the math I've done. Sharp wins with extra FS proc. My best Susan run is with sharp opener, if that matters anything to you.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Crit still affects the crit damage, correct?

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Tha's what 0.63 in the formula stands for (base 0.4 + 0.23 from crit rating).
Actual calculation is
f(crit)=(crit_chance*crit_multiplier+(1-crit_chance)*noncrit_multiplier)
damage increase is f(crit)-f(base_crit).
And increase over base value is (given noncrit_multiplier is just 1) delta_multiplier = crit_chance*crit_multiplier+(1-crit_chance) - 1 = crit_chance*(crit_multiplier-1).
Absense of explicitly coded diminishing returns makes calculations quite simple.

What MIGHT change the outcome is if i got base values wrong, i.e. if base crit multiplier is 1.5 then breakpoint indeed happens noticeably earlier.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

They're all within a couple of pps with the math I've done. Sharp wins with extra FS proc. My best Susan run is with sharp opener, if that matters anything to you.

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It matters a lot, this helps me in my endeavors.

How do you deal with foul in AF with sharpcast opener?

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Originally Posted by GospelVhae

How do you deal with foul in AF with sharpcast opener?

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3 things I usually do when faced with that scenario:
1. Force the Foul in AF and use swiftcast on B3 to keep enochian.
2. Sacrifice an F4 for Foul to keep enochian.
3. Use sharpcast on F1 for an F3P at the end of AF thus allowing you to F3P>Foul>B3.

Which of those 3 I would use depends on my CDs and Foul respawn timer. I do have to ask though, are you getting better DPS results with the sharpcast opener versus the b3 one? Top DPS BLMs are dishing out 4000+ on Susano using B3 opener. It's functionally smoother in the long run too given the Foul respawn timing being in UI.

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Originally Posted by soslinky

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I haven't tested sharpcast opener extensively so I can't compare between the two openers but Hearts opener is just really smooth in terms of foul placement. The things you mentioned are not really appealing to me as sharp/switft/triple should be really used, IMO, as utilities for movement

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Originally Posted by GospelVhae

I haven't tested sharpcast opener extensively so I can't compare between the two openers but Hearts opener is just really smooth in terms of foul placement. The things you mentioned are not really appealing to me as sharp/switft/triple should be really used, IMO, as utilities for movement

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Swift/Sharp does indeed provide great utility against necessary movement but, after sufficient experience in a fight, proper positioning will lead you to being able to dodge mechanics without sacrificing a Swift/Sharp for movement. The moment you succeed in using that Swift/Sharp for straight-up damage instead of keeping it on off-cooldown is a very satisfying feeling. BLM is one of those classes that is heavily rewarded for those tiny tweaks in positioning and I highly advise you take advantage of that.

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Originally Posted by soslinky

Good reminder of prepositioning

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Thanks for the reminder. I do preposition if I know the ins and outs of a fight but I'm just really having a hard time with BLM into Stormblood in general.

@GospelVhae

How much spellspeed do you have?

edit/addtl:
I too encountered difficulty adjusting to Stormblood BLM. The current levels of spellspeed (1400++) just feels sluggish when compared to late-HW SpS thanks to the level scaling. There's also the task of figuring out when to cast your procs, cooldowns, and more importantly, Foul.

I've read somewhere on reddit that: F4>Zero MP>Transpose>B4 is better than F4>2400 MP>B3

Can anyone validate this?

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Originally Posted by soslinky

I've read somewhere on reddit that: F4>Zero MP>Transpose>B4 is better than F4>2400 MP>B3

Can anyone validate this?

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I never tried it, but off top of my head this doesn't seem right.

If you B3>B4>T3>Foul>F3, you're looking at 2.5+3+3+2.5+2.5=13.5s of casting for 240*0.7+260+390+650+240*0.7=1636 potency, yielding 121,2 pps, roughly.
If you do F4>T>B4>B>T3>Foul>F3, it's 3+3+3+2.5+2.5+3=17s for 260*1.8+260+390+170+650+240*0.8=2200 potency, thus we get 129.4 potency in the best scenario that you get an instant mana tick. If you do not, then it's always lower.
You might ask "why that Blizzard?"- because if you don't use it, you risk losing UI if you wanna get all the spells off (no fastened casting of F3). I'd say with our speed, you're guaranteed to lose it. If you want to remove T3 from the rotation, you have to wait for the third UI tick anyway, so you essentially get one less spell for the same window (you can shove a Blizzard there) and it's also less pps.

Also note that the comparison is unfair. If I compare the 2400>B3 to the other one over the same time window (17s), the first has already finished a F4 and is already casting the next. That would be, for a 16.5s window (finished the first F4), a pps of 127.5, virtually the same as the "best scenario" for the transpose version.

I disregarded Enochian because you multiply both values by the same multiplier. Someone feel free to double check the math though.
I'd say at best they're the same, at worst the Transpose version loses. Not to mention that any movement going from UI or UI II to AF III is seriously more threatening to that version (much slower cast, so if you need to stop F3, you'll have to hit Transpose again and be thrown into dps loss hell).
Also, might as well add that if you make the mistake of starting to cast a F4 at 2400 and notice halfway through the cast, given these numbers (that I had never considered before), it seems it's best to finish the cast and hit Transpose.

Hope this was helpful.

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Originally Posted by GospelVhae

Thanks for the reminder. I do preposition if I know the ins and outs of a fight but I'm just really having a hard time with BLM into Stormblood in general.

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I don't play black mage but my wife has been playing it since the release of HW, I am browsing this forum page trying to get rotation ideas to help her because since the release of SB she has been struggling as well. glad to see that its not just her(as bad as that is to say) from what i can tell it looks like a large portion of the BLM rotation is still under investigation, still what is currently the most accepted rotation for black mage?

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

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Basically what Galvuu said, I ran some rotations through a dps calculator and every attempt, even with quick manaticks, it is a small potency loss. Obviously, if you have transpose to keep eno up, do it, but overall it should only be used during single target rotations.

@Galvuu
Thanks for the info.
But I suppose for the sake of a proper(?) comparison, it would be:
1. F4>F4(leaving you with zero MP)>Transpose>B4>T3>Foul>F4
2. F4(leaving you with 2400MP)>B3>Foul>T3>B4>F4
I am too sleepy to run the math, will try to squeeze it in tomorrow.

@RyeMinx
Would it be possible for you to post the math? I'd very much like to see the methodology you used for future reference. :)

@Uriel_Kross
Ideally your AF phase would be composed of 3x F4>F1>3x F4. Foul is usually used during UI phase. T3P could be used either in UI after Foul/B3 or during AF right after a Fire1 although you may(will?*) lose enoch if you continue with 3x F4 without Swift/F3P.
The rotation is currently tight due insufficient SpS but hopefully as the patches drop we'll get more and more SpS to stack. I've found 1400+ SpS to be a good number to be able to fit everything properly.

*Your spellspeed will determine your fate.

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Originally Posted by Uriel_Kross

I don't play black mage but my wife has been playing it since the release of HW, I am browsing this forum page trying to get rotation ideas to help her because since the release of SB she has been struggling as well. glad to see that its not just her(as bad as that is to say) from what i can tell it looks like a large portion of the BLM rotation is still under investigation, still what is currently the most accepted rotation for black mage?

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For the opener, there's the Umbral Hearts opener and the opener we had back in HW. I will probably recommend the HW opener as that is what's comfortable for her I assume (and more potency per second), just tell her to do the 5-6 Fire4s like back then in HW after doing Blizzard4s.

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Originally Posted by soslinky

@RyeMinx
Would it be possible for you to post the math? I'd very much like to see the methodology you used for future reference. :)

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BLM DPS Calculator
I am too lazy to do the actually math, thankfully Eddo on reddit made a dps calculator for BLM before the patch came out. I have tried out several different methods with transpose, and they always end up being lower PPS.

So what food are people figuring we should be using for the start of Savage?

As much as it hurts me to recommened a food without Spellspeed, HQ Persimmon Leaf Sushi (82 crit, 32 direct hit) should be better than the alternatives with spellspeed.
HQ Boiled Amberjack Head (69 spellspeed 21 det) would be the best option for spellspeed. Since we don't know the stats weight we can't be entirely sure though.

Hello,

I have been toying around with BLM learning to time my rotation while my under movement constraints in certain dungeons and trials to get better. My fellow BLM friend in-game was giving me some useful advice (I think) and she was saying that transpose is a minor DPS loss. Is this true? I have been doing this to squeeze out an extra F4 in the beginning. She was saying, "while that is good and all, it is actually a DPS loss and not a gain." I was using convert in the beginning after I cast 3x F4 if I get a F3 proc after casting F1. So basically, I am doing B3 B4 T3 F3 F4 F4 F4 F1 (F3 proc hopefully obtained) F4 F4 F4 convert (T3 proc hopefully) F1 F4 F4 transpose Foul B4 T3 and repeat. Am I doing something wrong? I appreciate any constructive criticism I can get as I sort of feel like I am doing something wrong. Thanks

My current opener is

Lucid - b3 - eno - t3 - b4 - f3 - triple cast - (pot) - f4 - diversion - f4 - leylines - f4 - sharpcast - f1 - f4 - f4 - f3 - swift cast - f4 - convert - f4 - ff4 ( with rotation repeat until next sharpcast which then u use before thunder )