The great streamer Asmongold is joining FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

This guy right here knows exactly what my point. Aether is the main focal point to why alot of people get away with things, and I think that doesn't make the story bad. It just explains what the world is like more and more.

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But that's not the characters being clever or good at survival, that's just the writers making up new rules and capabilities on the fly - and it really comes across that way to me during the MSQ sometimes. I wouldn't say that one thing alone makes the story bad but it takes away from it in my view and it's a huge reason why I just don't take this game's story very seriously.

In regards to the original topic:

I've been seeing a lot of his stuff pop up - and after some curious checking, he HAS made some solid points here and there. He'd need to try the game to really understand it, and good on him if he gets past the original slog to enjoy the game for what it is - I just hope that the high-publicity of the move doesn't especially color his enjoyment or lack thereof.

I am worried about the typical community that follows him becoming a potential problem for some time, but it's still not all THAT big of a deal because they can be ignored. Hopefully they'll find enough enjoyment in XIV to learn to be more tolerant, which is an overall net positive.

So... Neutral?

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Originally Posted by linayar

What is the context of this acknowledgement? If they haven't experienced it for themselves, it's understandable.

I'm not sure what you mean here? If people are being hypocrites or liars, that is their problem, but those people exist everywhere. If that disqualifies FFXIV from being able to have a "great" community, I think that's a negative outlook to view life and gives undue credit to bad people and allow them to ruin it for the rest.

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It just calls into question the claim this game actually has a "great community". There's a reason why it's a meme.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I disagree. It may be a game, but you are talking to and about real people unless you are constantly in RP mode. The game is just a medium where the chat box happens to be. It's why social interactions are not regulated by the game rating, because those interactions are not actually part of the game, though they are connected.

And yes, trash talk is trash talk, but it has its context. You don't just trash talk everywhere, and PvE should not be about competition.

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Unfortunately, even benign interactions seem to be heavily regulated by the enforcement of the ToS, and players who report others for anything and everything, in the hopes of getting another player banned, with absolutely no regard for context. Knowing full well, if what's reported is acted on, it will likely result in a strike.

I don't see why PvE can't be about competition. That's why there are things like leaderboards and "World first" races. I think a certain amount of healthy competition can go far into making the game a more fun experience. For that matter, we already had a taste of that sort of competition when it came to the Ishgard restoration, as I recall.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Is the difference that it's a game? Or is the difference there are absolutely no real life consequences?
Not a judgement call on you personally but I find people are very willing to "trash talk" and try to normalize it when there's no accountability whatsoever but once presented with consequences for their actions they're suddenly unwilling to spout the same vitriol even though the excuse should be the same.

Trash talk is not "a part of sports" anymore than being a bad sport is. It happens, that's all. People can have a competitive environment without being personally insulting. People can jab and banter without calling peoples actual lives into question. Victim blaming by saying "it's just a game, why are you taking it so personally" after telling people to off themselves (yes an extreme example but not unheard of) is not excusing them from what they just said.

I don't expect everyone to PG their conversation for competitive games, but it gets taken wayyy too far, far too often and then people try to hide behind it being just a game.

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If someone is going to physically assault another person for trash talk in a video game, frankly they need to get over it. That's way too far, not to mention illegal. Just because one person called another "bad" at some video game, that doesn't give them the right to introduce "real life consequences" or harm someone else over it.

Trash talk is absolutely a part of sports. For example, you can see it heavily in MMA prior to fights. I also think there's a difference between being a "bad sport" and "trash talking". I'm not referring to actual personal insults either, when I refer to "trash talk". Many in this game take any sort of criticism of the story, or characters as a personal slight. Even simply asking another to play at an adequate level is a lot of the time considered a personal attack here!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think the story has had a problem for a while now where there is actually very little at stake for those of us who don't buy into melodrama as a narrative device. A lot of us know that nothing is actually going to happen to the likes of Aymeric, Y'shtola and Alphinaud whenever they're on screen so after a certain point it becomes tiresome whenever the threat of a fake death emerges.

We're approaching the final arc of the game's first major story arc and if nobody of note is going to die during a recreation of an apocalypse then I don't consider that to be a ringing endorsement of the game's storytelling. It'd be nice to have some genuinely shocking moments - because this is a Final Fantasy game and the single player titles haven't exactly avoided such things within their own narratives.

I guess I just think that it's one of those situations where some people are going to be able to separate themselves from whatever bias they have for a character and others can or will not do so. There's a lot of characters I like in this game, though I'd be fine with them dying if it were handled well.

I also don't really count what happened in 5.55 to be much in the way of a consequence. The character in question, as much as I like him, is very minor and he's been absent from the main story for a while now already. Bringing him back just to have him bound to a wheelchair felt like a waste. He could have stepped up and replaced one of the more stagnant characters instead. Or, perhaps, he could have actually have been killed off.

It's not a case of asking for death for the sake of death. I just think it's poor form to setup a major threat and then have very little of note happen.

Shadowbringers was meant to be about exploring a completely different world and yet the majority of our traveling companions consist of characters we have spent time with already. I'd hate to see story arcs after Endwalker devolve into just going to, say, the inner provinces of Hingashi only to have the characters from the region itself sidelined in favour of following Alphinaud and Y'shtola around yet again.

I want to see new characters with different motivations, stronger personalities and more engaging stakes - just like what existed back in ARR and HW.

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And I'mma say this. If you're not liking how they are writing the main cast now, then why on earth do you want them to replace them with new faces. To do what? Do the same thing you're sick of the main cast doing? That's what I mean. Changing the players would do nothing if the writing isn't going to change. All you'll be doing is giving the party Fantas to look and sound different. They would still have the plot armor you hate and they still won't be getting killed off. The problem isn't death OR the cast. It's the writing.

I don't think death is the only answer. Hell if I had it my way at Endwalker after 6.0 all of the party would retired and go to do their own personal things and the WOL would go on their own adventures and meet new people that way. Rather or not anyone die wouldn't matter as I'll be introducing new people and thats that. I wouldn't go back to see the old characters unless I had a use for them then. And would only use death if it works for a story and not just cause.. otherwise you're just being wasteful. Honestly, with a sudden blind kitty.. I wouldn't be teasing death on her so much cause it gives off this idea that she has plot armor. she DOES... but they are hiding it badly. I will say that.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, if we're not going to see any major deaths during the re-creation of an apocalypse, when are we going to see it?

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Scions & Co emerge victorious from the end of all things- 12 minutes into 6.X G'raha breaks his back from a ladder accident after not properly tying it down and following basic safety. OSHA investigates the Scions, brutal reckoning.

Rich Campbell a very good friend of Asmons is playing the mmo right now and it seems to be going well. He is being followed around by a sperg army trying to show off their mounts and already has about 10 million gil at lvl 7 so there is that. Only one person has been rude in a city so far which is a bad reflection on the community and childish.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It just calls into question the claim this game actually has a "great community". There's a reason why it's a meme.

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No, it doesn't. A great community should be an overall judgment, taking into account that there are exceptions to the rule. Wanting to keep the community "pristine" or "pure" or whatever leads to the fear of the likes of Asmongold coming in. So people can't complain about that kind of reaction and then want to say at the same time that people being toxic in the community calls into question how great the community is. If people want to be welcoming of others, then accept that this community has people of differing attitudes and behaviors and opinions, some of it good, some of it not so good. That doesn't make it not great.

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Unfortunately, even benign interactions seem to be heavily regulated by the enforcement of the ToS, and players who report others for anything and everything, in the hopes of getting another player banned, with absolutely no regard for context. Knowing full well, if what's reported is acted on, it will likely result in a strike.

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That's only a problem if you think the rule isn't being enforced well, but that's a different issue.

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I don't see why PvE can't be about competition. That's why there are things like leaderboards and "World first" races. I think a certain amount of healthy competition can go far into making the game a more fun experience. For that matter, we already had a taste of that sort of competition when it came to the Ishgard restoration, as I recall.

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Leaderboards and races are PvP elements, and the problem is that mixes two different expectations. If everybody agrees on what they sign up on, then that's fine. But when they don't, and in the context where the game doesn't force competition, that's where expectations should be aligned to the nature of the content.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

The problem isn't death OR the cast. It's the writing.

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Not necessarily. I think the problem, more often than not, is a matter of difference between expectations of the player and where the story is heading.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Rich Campbell a very good friend of Asmons is playing the mmo right now and it seems to be going well. He is being followed around by a sperg army trying to show off their mounts and already has about 10 million gil at lvl 7 so there is that. Only one person has been rude in a city so far which is a bad reflection on the community and childish.

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See, if anything, this community can be too great sometimes, giving things to streamers, lol. (I'm not jealous, nope, not at all...) Though on a more serious note, that can also cheapen their experience, but whatever. If they accept the gifts, then that's fine.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If someone is going to physically assault another person for trash talk in a video game, frankly they need to get over it. That's way too far, not to mention illegal. Just because one person called another "bad" at some video game, that doesn't give them the right to introduce "real life consequences" or harm someone else over it.

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While I agree physical assault isn't WARRANTED, it's one of those things you have to risk if you're going to start badmouthing someone to their face and is likely a factor in keeping in-person trash talk at least about the game. However I'm also speaking of watching the facial expression and result of verbally destroying someone as well. LOTS of people will not do this if they actually have to watch someone crumble. It's easy to take down someone if you can reduce them to text and a game character, much harder to deal with an actual human being getting hurt by your actions (mentally or physically) and reconciling with yourself what you just did.

All in all the argument that "it's just trash talk" goes out the window when it's admitted that if you tried saying the same things to someone's face, you wouldn't be willing to deal with the consequences.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Trash talk is absolutely a part of sports. For example, you can see it heavily in MMA prior to fights.

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You mean the ones where the two guys then proceed to beat the ever-living stuffing out of each other? ... Yeah I'm thinking maybe using the same standard for a video game isn't very honest. Trash talking when not associated with then violently physically harming another person is usually just about the current game being played and while accepted isn't encouraged or a main attraction. Otherwise you'd have mics on every player on the field to keep up.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I also think there's a difference between being a "bad sport" and "trash talking". I'm not referring to actual personal insults either, when I refer to "trash talk". Many in this game take any sort of criticism of the story, or characters as a personal slight. Even simply asking another to play at an adequate level is a lot of the time considered a personal attack here!

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Then you're strawmanning the heck out of what kind of "trash talk" people have a problem with. The issue is when it DOES actually become personal attacks or denigration. "we're going to win" or "you guys suck" are harmless trash talk. Sure. Telling someone "hey could you do basic AOE rotations"? .. Fine.

"God could you guys kill stuff any slower?"

not fine.

The community here (in the forums) is especially touchy, I can concede that. But in game? Most of the time people just ignore you if you're a jerk. The game community just is a game community. It's not this hive of two-faced secret bigots or a wonderland utopia. Generally I personally find I encounter more nice than not people and my personal past experiences with some other MMO's have skewed the other way slightly. I'll agree that advertising FFXIV as some sort of carebear "we wuv evvwy buddy!" land is wrong. But it's pretty bad to present it as "everyone who think's it's a nice place and has had a good experience is just fooling themselves" as well.

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Originally Posted by linayar

No, it doesn't. A great community should be an overall judgment, taking into account that there are exceptions to the rule. Wanting to keep the community "pristine" or "pure" or whatever leads to the fear of the likes of Asmongold coming in. So people can't complain about that kind of reaction and then want to say at the same time that people being toxic in the community calls into question how great the community is. If people want to be welcoming of others, then accept that this community has people of differing attitudes and behaviors and opinions, some of it good, some of it not so good. That doesn't make it not great.

That's only a problem if you think the rule isn't being enforced well, but that's a different issue.

Leaderboards and races are PvP elements, and the problem is that mixes two different expectations. If everybody agrees on what they sign up on, then that's fine. But when they don't, and in the context where the game doesn't force competition, that's where expectations should be aligned to the nature of the content.

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Yes, and many could probably come to the conclusion that the FFXIV community isn't necessarily a "great community". On the surface some might think that it is, due to how ToS enforcement is handled, but this is just people getting banned and/or having a some self-control. One could say it only resembles a "great" community, because players are afraid of getting banned, and instead act passive-aggressively in-game, and show their true colors third-party.

Competition with one's self could also be a form of competition in PvE. Improving at the game, and overcoming the odds of whatever piece content they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

While I agree physical assault isn't WARRANTED, it's one of those things you have to risk if you're going to start badmouthing someone to their face and is likely a factor in keeping in-person trash talk at least about the game. However I'm also speaking of watching the facial expression and result of verbally destroying someone as well. LOTS of people will not do this if they actually have to watch someone crumble. It's easy to take down someone if you can reduce them to text and a game character, much harder to deal with an actual human being getting hurt by your actions (mentally or physically) and reconciling with yourself what you just did.

All in all the argument that "it's just trash talk" goes out the window when it's admitted that if you tried saying the same things to someone's face, you wouldn't be willing to deal with the consequences.




You mean the ones where the two guys then proceed to beat the ever-living stuffing out of each other? ... Yeah I'm thinking maybe using the same standard for a video game isn't very honest. Trash talking when not associated with then violently physically harming another person is usually just about the current game being played and while accepted isn't encouraged or a main attraction. Otherwise you'd have mics on every player on the field to keep up.


Then you're strawmanning the heck out of what kind of "trash talk" people have a problem with. The issue is when it DOES actually become personal attacks or denigration. "we're going to win" or "you guys suck" are harmless trash talk. Sure. Telling someone "hey could you do basic AOE rotations"? .. Fine.

"God could you guys kill stuff any slower?"

not fine.

The community here (in the forums) is especially touchy, I can concede that. But in game? Most of the time people just ignore you if you're a jerk. The game community just is a game community. It's not this hive of two-faced secret bigots or a wonderland utopia. Generally I personally find I encounter more nice than not people and my personal past experiences with some other MMO's have skewed the other way slightly. I'll agree that advertising FFXIV as some sort of carebear "we wuv evvwy buddy!" land is wrong. But it's pretty bad to present it as "everyone who think's it's a nice place and has had a good experience is just fooling themselves" as well.

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Frankly, if someone is "crumbling" over being called bad at a video game, they need to grow thicker skin. Like, I'm just saying. Nobody should have to worry about being physically assaulted either. If the other person cannot control themselves, they should probably go into anger management, or face potential jail time. If anyone would be facing "repercussions" in this scenario, it's them.

Trash talk isn't restricted to one sport, and for that matter, both parties in MMA agreed to whatever they are getting into. On top of there being medical personnel on standby, and regulations in place. Usually both parties understand what is said is just trash talk, and actually respect each other, and the sport. It's completely different from somebody with no modicum of self-control pummeling another person for trash talk.

How exactly is "God could you guys kill stuff any slower?" worse than "You guys suck"? It's the same thing in my eyes. Also, how is "we're going to win" trash talk? I suppose if the person saying "we're going to win" is being sarcastic, but even then.. [EDIT] [Oh, do you mean in regards to the other team? I was thinking in FFXIV context. Never mind here then. I'd BARELY consider that trash talk though.] And "hey could you do basic AOE rotations?" isn't even trash talk, that's just asking a player to use their kit.. :confused:

My prior response probably covers this.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Frankly, if someone is "crumbling" over being called bad at a video game, they need to grow thicker skin. Like, I'm just saying. Nobody should have to worry about being physically assaulted either. If the other person cannot control themselves, they should probably go into anger management, or face potential jail time. If anyone would be facing "repercussions" in this scenario, it's them.

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Again you're choosing something that I've already said isn't the problem. People using language they wouldn't use in person is the problem. If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it to someone you don't know. If you goad someone and then cry when they react, you're the problem. If you goad someone in a vicious matter because you know for a fact they cannot retaliate and you're "safe", you are implicitly admitting that what you're doing is not acceptable behavior. When you can see that what you're doing, in a reasonable situation, could result in a reasonable person losing their cool, MAYYYYYYBE you can see how you're the problem? THAT'S my problem with most people who say "it's just trash talk". They're usually using that excuse after they've been threatened with consequences they didn't think they'd have to face like say being reported for doing it too often and to the wrong people.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Trash talk isn't restricted to one sport, and for that matter, both parties in MMA agreed to whatever they are getting into. On top of there being medical personnel on standby, and regulations in place. Usually both parties understand what is said is just trash talk, and actually respect each other, and the sport. It's completely different from somebody with no modicum of self-control pummeling another person for trash talk.

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Then the "trash talk" in MMA is a spectacle and shouldn't be considered part of the "sport". It's all presentation. And again, I am not saying getting physical as retaliation is OK. I'm saying if you're taking your trashtalk to the level at which , in real life, you'd worry about someone losing their cool, you're not trash talking anymore, you're just being a jerk.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How exactly is "God could you guys kill stuff any slower?" worse than "You guys suck"? It's the same thing in my eyes. Also, how is "we're going to win" trash talk? I suppose if the person saying "we're going to win" is being sarcastic, but even then.. And "hey could you do basic AOE rotations?" isn't even trash talk, that's just asking a player to use their kit.. :confused:

My prior response probably covers this.

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Sorry, that one should have been clarified more. "You guys suck" when speaking to say an opposing team. There is an expectation of adversity there. "We're going to win" in the same context, when saying it to the other team.

"Hey could you do basic AOE rotations?" ISN'T trash talk, it's just being really passive aggressive. But still it's within reasonable conversation.

But once you get to "god could you guys kill stuff any slower" you're just being insulting for no reason and it's not productive. It can't be excused as trash talk because there's no competition to have. There's no reason to insult party members. None. Even if they're the worst players you ever encountered you don't need to go there and you shouldn't.