Do you think bard desired a nerfing soon.

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Originally Posted by Elegance

I hope you realise the healer LB isn't exactly a plus?
In almost every case you'd want a dps LB, there is a reason melee claim they are solely brought for their LB.

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Now there are those crazy cases where it comes in handy. During our first titan kill bombs came out and killed everyone that wasn't already dead except for me and the tank at around 10%. The tank was able to pop hallowed ground as i repeling shot myself into the center and aoe rezed the entire raid 1 second before the floor plumes came out. This was the sole reason we got our first titan kill. If I would have had a DPS limit break, that may not have happened. I realize that its an extreme case, but there are times where the healer is dead or too occupied to be able to get off the required cast time for the LB without the tank dying or everyone is already dead. This is where having a non healer with the heal LB comes in handy. Although, I've already said Id much prefer a BRD based buff LB.

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Originally Posted by Elegance

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Oh no, Haha. I completely agree with you. What I said was concerning the LB and all were to mock the posters lamebrained argument :)

So, basically, this thread has taught me a few things. 1) Most consider Bard DPS too high, but love their support. 2) Most Bard responses against the call for their DPS nerf boils down to, "Get on my level."

Bards have to be considered a Support class before they're a DPS class. If not, then they are DPS class before they're a Support class--which no other DPS class can claim to be. So, why should a class who primarily, or otherwise, is a Support class ALSO be the top DPS?

Seems like Bard DPS will get a nerf. If you're a "Bard Loyalist" and can't handle that, jump on the next DPS Bandwagon like you know you will. Don't even lie about it. You have a DPS Bandwagon Pass, you ride it so often. No? Bard's utility/support literally sings to you? Well you're in luck, that shouldn't be touched--it may even be expanded upon. So, what were some "Bards" arguing against again?

TL;DR:
You simply can't have your cake and eat it too. Just deal with it.

I still don't understand why a class has to be exactly like it was before? Does it take a great amount of skill to play a bard? No, Is it a fun class for beginners to the series that don't care about the previous installments of how the bard should be played, of course. Way I see it SE wanted the BARD to be a class that everyone could play, to people complaining about a challenge then go try another class...heck call everyone who plays a bard a pew pew noob, I don't care, just let me play my pew pew class in peace.

Also to those saying BARD will get a nerf, wouldn't count your chickens before they've hatched, given SE track record if we DO get a nerf its half a year away.

Main thing is, most of the earlier fights are not that long or extremely difficult to the point that BRDs rarely use any song other than Foe if they even use one. As the duration and difficulty of boss increase, BRDs will need to maintain a much higher uptime on MP/TP songs which will greatly reduce their output. The reason for our dps being as high as it is, lies in the fact that SE wanted BRD dps to not to be, mediocre at best, due to song dps nerfs and be in line at the end of the day with other dps classes.

Unfortunately, for fights were song up time is of non issue, BRD dps seems unproprtionally high. I believe SE designed BRD for the difficult long winded fights, not the arbitrarily simple and short ones.

Because on the flipside, if SE goes the "BRD is support route" and makes BRD dps equivalent or less when not singing and even worse when singing, then on fights, again, where song uptime is of no importance, people will prioritize other classes in place of BRDs because their songs are of no real use. This would cause groups to not wanna take BRDs.

To possibly combat this situation, SE could nerf our baseline "not in song" DPS to bring it inline with other dps classes and then remove dmg reduction caused by singing completely. Its a bit harder to balance a class that has a dps dependance on how often and how long they use their songs for. This would cause major fluctuations in where exactly to put the BRD baseline and for this reason I think they are designing BRD around dps values if BRDs sing a MP/TP song almost exclusively everytime they have the mp to do so.

again as healer, I am looking at this from a different perspective... but so they nerf bard, then someone else will be top, then they nerf that one, then someone else... the grass is always greener on the other side of the fense for you DPS.. from a team point stand point, nerfing anyone sucks... maybe give dragoons a pet to do more dps, and some special abilities, and monks, well don't know that class enough to suggest something, but lets talk to square about BUFFIng people, not nerfing them... nerfing a class hurts us all...

Again, there are many discussions on the Healer forums about scholars and white mage, but I have never heard anyone say NERF white mage... its always about buffing or fixing scholar....

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Originally Posted by Blaste

Its not as simple as throwing a switch or hitting a big nerf button, with a game like FFXIV that is already walking a fairly thin tightrope putting a nerf out on a class could have serious consequences. Some of which could result on a mass number of players just leaving

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And the flipside of that is that everyone who DOESN'T want to play the OP to the max fotm bard may decide the game is not worth their time. Then you're stuck with palas, healers and bards..oh wait lol that's the optimal setup for EVERY situation. Nvm game can do without all other classes. Cya back in wow!

God melee players sound bitter in this game. Nerf the Bard twice if you want, I can imagine you will still be out trying to change things in the game to the way you want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Jayded

And the flipside of that is that everyone who DOESN'T want to play the OP to the max fotm bard may decide the game is not worth their time. Then you're stuck with palas, healers and bards..oh wait lol that's the optimal setup for EVERY situation. Nvm game can do without all other classes. Cya back in wow!

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Which is why we need to find that middle ground. One would be just nerfing the Bard's damage a little (10% maybe?) while removing the 20% damage output reduction the songs give. It encourages using the Bard as support, while getting rid of that thin line between OP and completely nerfed. This is in no way, shape, or form completely thought through as an idea, btw, since I have no clue how other DPSers compare other than Pugilist, which I'm about to start working on again.

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Originally Posted by BrodyAlgana

snippity-snip

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In a perfect world, sure. Buffing would be better than nerfing. The ones who were suppose to get nerfed, don't get nerfed, and everyone else gets a buff. Good times all around.

However, the reality is this: You either nerf one class, or buff the rest of the game around said class. Not just the other classes, but the game itself, since content will now have to scale accordingly to everyone being stronger. If not, content becomes too easy. SE is running a business, not a charity. They'll nerf one thing before spending the resources to buff everything around that one thing to balance it. Can a class be powerful? Sure, for a time. That is subject to the ebb and flow of patches throughout a MMO's life. No class should be overpowered.

Generally, if you are passing content because a class, any class, is OP, then should you really be passing the content to begin with?

Buffing another 4 class is more harder than nerfing one. the only issue for nerfing is crying. For MMO, that is not an issue.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Buffing another 4 class is more harder than nerfing one. the only issue for nerfing is crying. For MMO, that is not an issue.

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There's another issue that Guild Wars 2's developers have made apparent to me...overnerfing. The developers at Anet have a horrible problem with overnerfing things to the point where they're useless. It may be possible SE could do that here...which I think is the main thing most of us are worried about. It's a thin line between undernerfing and overnerfing.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Buffing another 4 class is more harder than nerfing one. the only issue for nerfing is crying. For MMO, that is not an issue.

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This being my fist MMO, crying seems to be a huge part of the genre.

I used to play SWTOR. I was a Shadow tank. What we learned over the past year or so is that devs don't always 'balance' classes with nerfs. Sometimes the crush them. This is especially bad when 'balance' passes are only made once every few months.

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Originally Posted by Sithlord006

I used to play SWTOR. I was a Shadow tank. What we learned over the past year or so is that devs don't always 'balance' classes with nerfs. Sometimes the crush them. This is especially bad when 'balance' passes are only made once every few months.

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I really think more developers need to do bi-weekly patches. Accidentally overnerfed something? It'll get fixed within 2 weeks. Otherwise you're stuck waiting for 1-3 months, such as in SWTOR and Guild Wars 2.

Get accurate parses, as for oh no bards can do 100% damage at all times with no penalty therefore they will always top dage/dps, all i have to say to you is go look at where hunters are at atm in wow compared to melee.
Even with cast timers they can still move at all times and constantly be on the move to avoid melee range aoe and all those other things. Compare them in pvp and arena as well. Im PRETTY sure they arent topthere despite havong all these same advantages bards have. Now im not advocating a no-nerf/nerf policy, but at least look at how these classes relate in other MMOs compared to melee and watnot before spouting about movement being the thing because they can dps 100% of the time.
Also dont go on about oh but melee cant hit moving targets 90% of the time thats something SE needs to work out ontheir end not something to punish bards for.
Incidentally i dont care if bards do get a nerf ill still play it just dont overnerf it, balance over nerf. Imo my ideas help that.

the bard don't need a nerf on it dps, it need a nerf on him freedom of movement. the bard can continue to dps while moving and that what make it soo strong. they need to add cast time on some skill. will make it less powerfull and more balanced.

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Originally Posted by KupoMania

Get accurate parses, as for oh no bards can do 100% damage at all times with no penalty therefore they will always top dage/dps, all i have to say to you is go look at where hunters are at atm in wow compared to melee.
Even with cast timers they can still move at all times and constantly be on the move to avoid melee range aoe and all those other things. Compare them in pvp and arena as well. Im PRETTY sure they arent topthere despite havong all these same advantages bards have.

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Actually they pretty much dominated pvp for a LOOONG time until repeated nerfs brought them down to everyone else's level recently.

1: i dont care if bards are nerfed or not ill play it either way.
2: i was using hunters from wow as a referance point for the fact that u can have a class thats 100% mobile withought being op in pve or pvp situations, NOT, as u said for an excuse to make/keep bards op. (refer to point 1)
3: in pvp hunters were strong because of the pets they could use and watnot but that was addressed as gallows said, but again all the reasons classes arw changed in wow is related to pvp 80% of the time.
4: i never said just because melee can hit in other mmo's makes it ok for them not to be able to in ARR, i said that if they cant then its an issues on SE's end that needs to be resolved, and if it is it should make melees numbers better than they are atm.

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Originally Posted by KupoMania

some stuff about melee being better than ranged in wow

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Yea hunters in wow are competitive in both, but they are not as op as bards will be in this game. Hint: Melee can not hit moving targets in ffxiv even if we are inside of them slamming action buttons. Yea.

Simple tests comparing BLM, SMN, and BRD DPS would show you that at higher item levels, bards DPS does not stand up. One of the easier tests you can do is take a competent bard and a competent (SMN, BLM, MNK, DRG) and have them split DPS a gargoyle. Unless the Bard pops all cooldowns as the pull goes, he will not win any of those fights except for maybe against Dragoon.

Your DPS meter application is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Saisha

Simple tests comparing BLM, SMN, and BRD DPS would show you that at higher item levels, bards DPS does not stand up. One of the easier tests you can do is take a competent bard and a competent (SMN, BLM, MNK, DRG) and have them split DPS a gargoyle. Unless the Bard pops all cooldowns as the pull goes, he will not win any of those fights except for maybe against Dragoon.

Your DPS meter application is wrong.

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So in a situation where the playing field is completely even; no moving nor dodging AE and the mob is immobile, affording everyone to perform as best they can, melee can hit flank or rear attacks without fail and casters don't have to worry about spell interruptions = Bard is not top DPS. I see and I understand.

Too bad there is no situation like that in the game, nor likely will ever be.

Potentiality and Actuality, your situation application is wrong.

The crux of Bards being OP is many fold, not just solely based upon their DPS potential; it is the fact that they can perform every single one of their offensive abilities at maximum efficiency while unhindered by positional requirements and being completely mobile coupled with having the best utility in the game.

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Originally Posted by Jayded

Yea hunters in wow are competitive in both, but they are not as op as bards will be in this game. Hint: Melee can not hit moving targets in ffxiv even if we are inside of them slamming action buttons. Yea.

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Sounds like its design issue, not a balance one, then.

@ guy below me

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

sure...
http://oi43.tinypic.com/9kx8ax.jpg

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If we're going by parties most of mine have 80% healer/tank....

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

7 is wrong. Dragoon is most popular.

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sure...
http://oi43.tinypic.com/9kx8ax.jpg

This is only my 2 cents. If we take away the freedom of movement from BRD, where is the unique job design? May as well swap over to mp and just give us magic attacks if that is the approach everybody wants. This is the only thing I am addressing because it seems to be the most popular in this thread.
In regards to other aspects of BRD, we do in fact bring a multitude of utility to the party base, but what's wrong with that? Seems to me like most of the QQ in here is due to the fact that BRD has a uniqe design to it compared to some other jobs.
In response to one of the other posts, why can't melee attack a boss that's moving? I see it done. Maybe you just aren't that good at playing a melee?? Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

No, newest data show bard had most population and 60% people second job is bard.

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The number of DF i get with 2 dragoons disagrees. And most are terrible players(not sure why).

According to Yoshida and the developers blog, PvP will require completely different gear and come with a completely different set of skills for each class.
So I'm not really sure you can claim that Bards will be OP in PVP before even seeing the new skillsets or gear...

Source:
FFXIV Developers Blog

By what i have been reading bards don't want a change to there class at all but they need to stop and think what they bring to the table as far as damage and utility with and without their songs on they have Blood for Blood 20% damage increase and 25% damage taken for 20s every 80s, internal release 20% crit up for 15s every 60s and raging strikes which is 20% more damage for 20s every 120s.

But lets ignore that and focus on the main issues songs shouldn't stack and if they stay the same they need a down side one bard should be enough for the groups mp and tp needs. If 2 -3 bards is becoming a meta something needs to changed 2 locked positions out of 4 for 5 dps is a bit much in my opinion. I would rather not see a class get a damage nerf this early.

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Originally Posted by KupoMania

2: i was using hunters from wow as a referance point for the fact that u can have a class thats 100% mobile withought being op in pve or pvp situations

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People have a tendency to over simplify issues by pointing at just one aspect of the whole. It's true that 100% ranged mobility does not alone make a class op, but it is obviously a big advantage. What makes bard op is the combination of all the factors. When a class with the best utility in the game is also the one with the easiest and most convenient form of dps then it clearly is op. This is for pve only because pvp will be completely broken if we get it without fixing the current net code issues.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

According to Yoshida and the developers blog, PvP will require completely different gear and come with a completely different set of skills for each class.
So I'm not really sure you can claim that Bards will be OP in PVP before even seeing the new skillsets or gear...

Source:
FFXIV Developers Blog

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I dont think they can completely change all skills. one thing I am worry is Yoshida may only play bard just like Jay only play barb in diablo 3. when director didn't play all the class, the class balance is not easy. bard is well designed, only support class with top DPS. Make them high demand over tank and healer for end game content.

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Originally Posted by traja

People have a tendency to over simplify issues by pointing at just one aspect of the whole. It's true that 100% ranged mobility does not alone make a class op, but it is obviously a big advantage. What makes bard op is the combination of all the factors. When a class with the best utility in the game is also the one with the easiest and most convenient form of dps then it clearly is op. This is for pve only because pvp will be completely broken if we get it without fixing the current net code issues.

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Why is it every other class but Bards seem to grasp and comprehend the issue at large?

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Originally Posted by t00nc3ss

Why is it every other class but Bards seem to grasp and comprehend the issue at large?

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I grasp it, my problem is that I don't have access to the code to fix it. We need certain moves getting charge times like Heavy Shot and Bloodletter (for examples, because both moves already show a charging up for the animation), and an overall damage output drop (hopefully 10% at the most). I just hope they also make the songs more useful and get rid of that damage reduction on them in return, because for right now I see no point in using any of them, and for a support class, it makes no sense that all of my support abilities are that useless until endgame. Not once have I continually used a song since becoming a Bard, and that makes no sense.

Maybe it is possible Square intended and thought people would use songs more (so that 20% loss in damage would be more noticeable). If a song was up 80% of the time, figure in 20% loss to those numbers everyone is talking about and the dps would be closer. What they really need to do is completely restructure it, ive decided. And have a DPS Archer - call it Ranger or something, and a support Bard - two advanced classes not just one. Have the Ranger do DPS on par with other DPS, and while the bard can still do DPS some, can have one buff song and one debuff song on mobs at the same time, for certain amounts of time (so they have to be recast). I personally like my bard friends just the way they are now, but the QQing is getting horrible. (Again, i havent heard anyone say nerf WHM in comparison with Scholar..... It isn't about making WHM worse, its about making scholar better and fixing pet UI)

Meh dont bother, many people come here because they failed with their class and come here blaming other classes that are simple.

Here you can see a top monk dps on titan, also many monks are saying that they can do even more dmg near 300dps...i always go to coils and have a friend monk who rapes caduceus.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Showcase-Guide

There are several good points on both sides here but I am still failing to see why everyone has a problem with it. Is it simply because of Party make up and DF Q'ing???? If not for that...what are you complaining about?? If someone will not play with you because of your class then don't play with them...join a LS or FC where people will be fair to you and not be jerks. In the FC I am part of we let anyone in the party who wants to play assuming we are not trying to take like 5 tanks or something silly like that and we do just fine clearing content and have not had any issues so far. So sound off and tell me why you want it changed so bad? How is it hurting you I guess is what I am looking for. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

... How is it hurting you I guess is what I am looking for. Thanks.

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So imbalance is fine because you can just play with people who don't care about performance? To me that is ridiculous but of course everyone is free to have their own opinion. But if that is truly the position you hold then why would you oppose changes? If class performance makes no difference to you shouldn't you be completely neutral on the subject? I mean nerfs won't affect you at all so why go through the effort of opposing them?

You guys talk about stuff you clearly didnt tested. BRD in coil is fine, other dps destroy us on parser. MNK, BLM's and DRG usually do better then us damage wise. Our job is to dps and give the song utility to the raid. 90% of the people talking and whining here is still wiping on titan.

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Originally Posted by Arkh

You guys talk about stuff you clearly didnt tested. BRD in coil is fine, other dps destroy us on parser. MNK, BLM's and DRG usually do better then us damage wise. Our job is to dps and give the song utility to the raid. 90% of the people talking and whining here is still wiping on titan.

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i know...most of this people dont even have relic -_-

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

I dont know if nerfing dps is necessary. In PvE, a weaker bard means having a weaker group. The issue is not so much that Bard is too strong, its that melees are not really wanted in endgame groups, so they have to change those classes and make them more desirable.
When they change bard, they should focus on aspects that makes it less desirable to have MULTIPLE bards and instead pick other classes for spot 2-4, so probably less stackable skills/songs.

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One of the more sensible posts in this thread. +1 for you, sir!