Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by Lhun

I'm not talking about story mode, and this isn't my first character. If you have less then or near a max of 7.3k total health at level 50 on hardmode titan and your healers don't have time to max you before he fires it (HE GIVES YOU SO MUCH WARNING!!) you are very bad at the game and have terrible gear. Also, you can immediately convalescence and fire every one of your self heals from monk and WAR the second it lands. Your "issue" isn't an issue.

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lol
i have 7250hp with relic and af2 head

are you telling all the other warriors not to do titan HM until they get more than 2pieces of af2??

apprarently your just talking out of your @ss

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Originally Posted by fledrel

So far the only content I have heard of that a WAR just can NOT tank is Coil turn 5. Is that 1 reason enough for you to not play WAR? if so then you obviously don't play WAR because you like the job... Also DRG was always good(the wyrvrn did kinda suck though), the buff they got never changed any of that, just the stigma around the job diminished. FFXI was an elitist game really. I see no reason why this will be any different. However, playing with friends to enjoy the game would mean you get to try new things and find ways of making it work.

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Tell me something, WHY should a Group Use a Warrior, when with a Paladin its alot easier?
Even Hardcore Progress Guild say that, that all Content is alot easier with PLD as MT.


Its funny, almost every Gladiator say "Warrior are good".... Play a Warrior and then we Talk again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3S8w0yT6no

warriors can do titan hm fine

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Originally Posted by hola

lol
i have 7250hp with relic and af2 head

are you telling all the other warriors not to do titan HM until they get more than 2pieces of af2??

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Congratz on your Equip, still, a Paladin in Darklight Equip Need less heal then you....

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3S8w0yT6no

warriors can do titan hm fine

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When everyone knows the fight and there are no panic moments and the only thing to do is heal the tank through predictable damage and the raid through predictable stomps, Warriors are fine.

Unfortunately, when you're progressing on something, not everything goes perfect. Paladins can get a kill with a ton things going wrong due to their piles of cooldowns and less damage taken. Warriors don't have it that easy.

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Originally Posted by Colyo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3S8w0yT6no

warriors can do titan hm fine

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sure they can, but again... and i think i wrote this my 10th time now....
Warrior can Tank til Titan and beyond.... but with a Paladin ist alot easier..... and thats the main Point.

Ahh people. Let this discussion end. WAR and PLD should probably be played together. Yes, PLD can take more of a beating. I am down with that as a WAR. People who rolled WAR knew what they were in for. I mean, ffs, I rolled the tank that doesn't use a shield. I made my bed, I will sleep in the mofo. Do I care that PUGs may not want me? Nope, I got a FC that keeps me very busy. They have no intention of dropping me off at the gates of the Coil. If the PLD tanks, so be it. If I tank, so be it. I don't think either of us care. I hope every WAR roles to another class. I would be perfectly happy as the only "angry trashcan with an ax" on the server.

That said. Wait till there are bosses that have a healing mechanic... then watch all these two PLD groups scramble like mad to gear up a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Tell me something, WHY should a Group Use a Warrior, when with a Paladin its alot easier?
Even Hardcore Progress Guild say that, that all Content is alot easier with PLD as MT.


Its funny, almost every Gladiator say "Warrior are good".... Play a Warrior and then we Talk again....

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As I have said the only content that a WAR has not successfully tanked that I know of is the absolute last raid/dungeon available right now, coil turn 5.
As for why? maybe there are no PLD available, or you like a challenge. OR your not an elitist prick. My view is this, They both can do it. If you choose the PLD over the WAR that isn't a game choice, it is your choice. You are choosing to use the PLD over the WAR. And why is that? Because you want the content to be easier. That is ok too.

Also I have every intention of leveling WAR after I finish my Relic. I want to be prepared for future content with having all tank jobs leveled. I actually am greatly looking forward to playing WAR after doing so much content with PLD, and seeing good WAR tanking.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrK

It could also mean that they simply feel the player base is in content they do not feel they should be in at this phase of the game. That is what mostly makes sense to me. I could see Yoshi sitting in an office thinking, "Well, they shouldn't be in Turn 5 with ANY tank. It would be ridiculous to buff warriors yet... We told them 3 months to complete Coil."
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I would agree with this sentiment 100%. This isn't WoW, you arnt expected to farm up the entire raid in less then a week's worth of time and sit there and complain. There are tiers of content, we were missing a rung on the ladder and everyone just kept climbing up w/o realizing we need it.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Congratz on your Equip, still, a Paladin in Darklight Equip Need less heal then you....

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thats what i was trying to say
a bosss that can be done by pld with half lv60greens

why warrior needs af2 to do it?

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Originally Posted by Bayman

Ahh people. Let this discussion end. WAR and PLD should probably be played together. Yes, PLD can take more of a beating. I am down with that as a WAR. People who rolled WAR knew what they were in for. I mean, ffs, I rolled the tank that doesn't use a shield. I made my bed, I will sleep in the mofo. Do I care that PUGs may not want me? Nope, I got a FC that keeps me very busy. They have no intention of dropping me off at the gates of the Coil. If the PLD tanks, so be it. If I tank, so be it. I don't think either of us care. I hope every WAR roles to another class. I would be perfectly happy as the only "angry trashcan with an ax" on the server.
That said. Wait till there are bosses that have a healing mechanic... then watch all these two PLD groups scramble like mad to gear up a WAR.

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your right, still, i like to hear "bring the Player, not the class"... but right now ist "bring Paladin, Warrior Need to much heal"

thats waht sucks.

I was always Tank the last 7 years in every MMO that i played, but right now i feel me Kind of useless. sure, i can Tank Titan, but ist alot harder for my grp/healer to Keep me up, and thats my Problem. atm i feel me like a Half backed Tank with alot HP but nothing to Keep them up.

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Originally Posted by Bayman

Ahh people. Let this discussion end. WAR and PLD should probably be played together. Yes, PLD can take more of a beating. I am down with that as a WAR. People who rolled WAR knew what they were in for. I mean, ffs, I rolled the tank that doesn't use a shield. I made my bed, I will sleep in the mofo. Do I care that PUGs may not want me? Nope, I got a FC that keeps me very busy. They have no intention of dropping me off at the gates of the Coil. If the PLD tanks, so be it. If I tank, so be it. I don't think either of us care. I hope every WAR roles to another class. I would be perfectly happy as the only "angry trashcan with an ax" on the server.

That said. Wait till there are bosses that have a healing mechanic... then watch all these two PLD groups scramble like mad to gear up a WAR.

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This. Let's ignore these dolts and stick to our FC's that realize that the tank class you need is situation based, and mostly on the composition of OTHER MEMBERS of your party.
These people are having so much trouble because they're not playing with friends and getting owned by singleminded, expecting easymode Pug groups who fate grinded to 50 and just now realized they should finish storymode to get access to end game.

Their heads might explode when they find out that GLD is a better tank in every way to PLD. haha.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

your right, still, i like to hear "bring the Player, not the class"... but right now ist "bring Paladin, Warrior Need to much heal"

thats waht sucks.

I was always Tank the last 7 years in every MMO that i played, but right now i feel me Kind of useless. sure, i can Tank Titan, but ist alot harder for my grp/healer to Keep me up, and thats my Problem. atm i feel me like a Half backed Tank with alot HP but nothing to Keep them up.

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I feel your pain, because I was there once. Don't rely on others to show you how to play -> Find out how to fix what's not working in the groups you're in. FFXI taught me: to be most effective, don't play how others think you should play. Think how SE WANTS YOU/EXPECTED you TO PLAY IT, and you will surprise people left, right and center.

you can be a badass Player, if your class just sucks, you cant do much about it.
Anyway how good you Play your Warrior, Bloodbat and Stormspath just sucks, and Inner Beast just heals good for once all 2min, after that all 16sec "ok". u dont have much more...

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Originally Posted by fledrel

So far the only content I have heard of that a WAR just can NOT tank is Coil turn 5.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nb1DKH9XwA

The warrior tanking 2 adds lives longer than the PLD.

War's need some love to be brought up to par no arguments there, but I have seen a WAR tank every turn of the coil. I am rolling both tank jobs so I will be able to use the best for the situation just like any tank that wants solid progression should be doing.

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Originally Posted by Relics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nb1DKH9XwA

The warrior tanking 2 adds lives longer than the PLD.

War's need some love to be brought up to par no arguments there, but I have seen a WAR tank every turn of the coil. I am rolling both tank jobs so I will be able to use the best for the situation just like any tank that wants solid progression should be doing.

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You missed 3 things the paladin took the main add the warriors popped convalescense and the warriors health dipped lower quicker so the only healer alive was already mid cast on the warrior.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

as it should. Also, 120~150 EVERY 7 seconds, with a chance to crit every time. My previous point still stands. All you guys care about is a number. You don't know what "over time" means.

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Coil bosses laugh at your "over time" comment with their ability to dump 10k worth of damage on you within a few seconds.

Paladins pop a cooldown and laugh back

Warriors just....die

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Endgame bloodbath should only be used with vengeance, in my opinion.

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O.O

Excellent idea Why didn't I think of this? A tip of the hat to you my good sir. I think you just solved my "Self-heal during Pacification" problem.

Heck you may have solved my KITING problem.

Holy Cow...

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Originally Posted by Kexual

Here is what Yoshi had to say about Warriors, as translated by Reinhart:

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y: some were asking isn't warrior weaker/harder than paladin?
y: in development environment devs are really strong with marauder
y: so I think you'l find them out soon
y: they are really strong
y: for those that really want to show off, i recommend warrior

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Does this mean that Yoshi is telling us buffs are on the way, or Warrior is shining with the content that's coming? I'm not sure.

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He's telling us, politely: L2P Noobs, we pwnz U! :P

I would generally agree with him based on my read, and only read, of the complaints, the class, and the posts by those NOT having problems. I note that the people with problems and the ones without seem to be looking at the class and its meta in near opposite ways.

The folks with issues are trying to recreate a mitigation tank on a class with... no defensive ability...
The folks without trouble are trying to recreate the meta that eventually evolved for the City of Heroes "Brute" class...


The Brute was a class with the threat gen abilities of the 'tanker', but the armor abilities of a trash mob... By the end of City of Hero's life-cycle, it was the go-to tank option in the places I frequented. But for the first few years, it was considered a useless class. The devs there never changed it - somebody who figured it out just finally got his memo listened to by the other players. The Brute was the proto-WoW DK, and proto-WoW Monk. It stayed up despite taking hits that should have killed it, by using very active play of a series of gimmicks and by being played by players who glued their eyes open so they didn't ever blink and wipe... :) You played like a madman, insane, and you won. One second of caution, and you faceplanted.


Here's Yoshi's fuller quote:

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y; Earlier today, I was told by a player that Warriors are weaker than Paladins
y; They are harder to play
f; It’s more technical
y; You need to bring in a lot of the the additional (skills?) to get it fully out
y; But really, in development team, warrior are really strong, and it’s more stable
y; So right now it looks like Paladins can hold the enmity and tank, however
y; honestly Warriors are really strong.
y; Players haven’t researched enough so I would like players who are up for a challenge to stand up and play.
y; We the development team really recommend Warriors

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http://gamerescape.com/2013/09/20/tg...h-translation/

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Originally Posted by Bayman

That said. Wait till there are bosses that have a healing mechanic... then watch all these two PLD groups scramble like mad to gear up a WAR.

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They use the same gear...

guys correct me, my english i not the best and i never got it at School, but when i read this again:

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y: some were asking isn't warrior weaker/harder than paladin?
y: in development environment devs are really strong with marauder
y: so I think you'l find them out soon
y: they are really strong
y: for those that really want to show off, i recommend warrior

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Doesnt that mean, we will see a strong Warrior soon? so maybee we get a Buff?

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Endgame bloodbath should only be used with vengeance, in my opinion.

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so bloodbath can heal you for extra 10hp everything the boss hit you?

GTFO...

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Originally Posted by Conna

You missed 3 things the paladin took the main add the warriors popped convalescense and the warriors health dipped lower quicker so the only healer alive was already mid cast on the warrior.

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Yeah agreed PLD was main tanking and PLD's are preferred currently. Again not saying warriors don't need love, because they DO! But trying to show it is still being done obviously not as easy, but people saying no possible way please take a look.

Question. Does Defiance healing % benefit only affect Cure magic or his self heals?
If I heard right Covalescence does not affect his self heals.

If I get it right, Paladin is stronger because Shield oath takes five 1000 dmg hits for 800 each, mitigating 1000 damage excusing other cooldowns
Meaning to be "on par" Marauder has to be able also mitigate and/or heal 1000 damage.

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Originally Posted by Zanther

They use the same gear...

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Um, Ax and my myth is very different. But thanks for playin'

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Question. Does Defiance healing % benefit only affect Cure magic or his self heals?
If I heard right Covalescence does not affect his self heals.

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Defiance:

Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity.
Effect ends upon reuse.
Using certain actions while under the effect of Defiance will grant Wrath. Each unit of Wrath increases critical hit rate by 2% and and HP recovery via curing magic by 3%. When five units are stacked, you will become Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when Defiance ends.

Heavy Allagan Armor
Body
UNTRADABLE UNIQUE
Defense
158
Magic Defense
158
Strength +29
Vitality +33
Parry +24
Accuracy +34


Warrior's Cuirass
Body
UNTRADABLE UNIQUE
Defense
158
Magic Defense
158
Strength +29
Vitality +33
Parry +34
Accuracy +24


Valor Surcoat
Body
UNTRADABLE UNIQUE
Defense
158
Magic Defense
158
Strength +29
Vitality +33
Parry +34
Determination +17

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Originally Posted by Bayman

Um, Ax and my myth is very different. But thanks for playin'

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Uh huh.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

He's telling us, politely: L2P Noobs, we pwnz U! :P

I would generally agree with him based on my read, and only read, of the complaints, the class, and the posts by those NOT having problems. I note that the people with problems and the ones without seem to be looking at the class and its meta in near opposite ways.

The folks with issues are trying to recreate a mitigation tank on a class with... no defensive ability...
The folks without trouble are trying to recreate the meta that eventually evolved for the City of Heroes "Brute" class...


The Brute was a class with the threat gen abilities of the 'tanker', but the armor abilities of a trash mob... By the end of City of Hero's life-cycle, it was the go-to tank option in the places I frequented. But for the first few years, it was considered a useless class. The devs there never changed it - somebody who figured it out just finally got his memo listened to by the other players. The Brute was the proto-WoW DK, and proto-WoW Monk. It stayed up despite taking hits that should have killed it, by using very active play of a series of gimmicks and by being played by players who glued their eyes open so they didn't ever blink and wipe... :) You played like a madman, insane, and you won. One second of caution, and you faceplanted.


Here's Yoshi's fuller quote:

Quote:

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y; Earlier today, I was told by a player that Warriors are weaker than Paladins
y; They are harder to play
f; It’s more technical
y; You need to bring in a lot of the the additional (skills?) to get it fully out
y; But really, in development team, warrior are really strong, and it’s more stable
y; So right now it looks like Paladins can hold the enmity and tank, however
y; honestly Warriors are really strong.
y; Players haven’t researched enough so I would like players who are up for a challenge to stand up and play.
y; We the development team really recommend Warriors

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http://gamerescape.com/2013/09/20/tg...h-translation/

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Thank you ^_^

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Thank you ^_^

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I believe most people are already aware about that part of the interview and it's why they're worried.

The point the concerned WARs here are trying to make is: what exactly is he expecting us to research? It's not like there's this huge list of abilities for people to try out. Do you seriously think there's this magic combination of abilities that's going to close the gap between the two classes? Because beyond the discrepancy created by Shield Oath, Rage of Halone and wearing a shield, there's all the defensive cooldowns that WAR doesn't appear to have much answer for either and I don't see where some magic bullet is going to come from that can make up for all that.

Really, the only cross class ability I see that doesn't get much mention is Haymaker. It's a relatively weak ability on the GCD that's only usable after a dodge that can apply Slow. Are there a lot of difficult bosses that can be slowed? Does Slow not have DR or something?

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Thank you ^_^

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translate

im very very happy to hear that yoshida is not gonna buff warrior.

The group that i play with went all the way up to BC turn 4 with 1 WAR and 1 PLD. Our WAR decided to reroll PLD and now we have turn 4 down lol. (Beat turn 4 last week)

All in all, I do think some changes have to be done to Warriors. Just not mitigation because that would defeat the purpose of the class.

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Originally Posted by Altsein

The group that i play with went all the way up to BC turn 4 with 1 WAR and 1 PLD. Our WAR decided to reroll PLD and now we have turn 4 down lol. (Beat turn 4 last week)

All in all, I do think some changes have to be done to Warriors. Just not mitigation because that would defeat the purpose of the class.

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I don't think some additional mitigation will defeat the role of the class. If you were to, say, add an ability similar to sentinel that would allow a WAR to take heavily reduced damage over a short period of time, it wouldn't all of a sudden turn them into mitigation tanks because they have one ability that mitigates dmg. Hell, you could make it eat wrath for "flavor" if you need to. PLD would still be more mitigation centric and WAR would still be more self-healing centric.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I don't think some additional mitigation will defeat the role of the class. If you were to, say, add an ability similar to sentinel that would allow a WAR to take heavily reduced damage over a short period of time, it wouldn't all of a sudden turn them into mitigation tanks because they have one ability that mitigates dmg. Hell, you could make it eat wrath for "flavor" if you need to. PLD would still be more mitigation centric and WAR would still be more self-healing centric.

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I can see that working. What i meant by not adding mitigation though, is more along the lines of how PLDs are able to take less dmg passively compared to WARs.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I believe most people are already aware about that part of the interview and it's why they're worried.

The point the concerned WARs here are trying to make is: what exactly is he expecting us to research?

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^ This post. It's a good post.

There are only a few ways to change your character: Stat Allotment, Materia Melding, Additional Abilities, and Gear.

Stat Allotments have been tried up and down differently. Nothing is been conclusively proven about how to allot for WAR other than -> VIT or STR. (I lean towards VIT)
PLD and WAR share all the same Gear options outside of their main weapon - even their AF/AF2 gear sets are similar. PLD can Parry/Block - WAR can only Parry.
Melding Materia is to enhance additional stats not already present in the gear make up - much of the endgame gear is not meldable.
Additional Abilities for WAR add no mitigation -> a single self heal and more chance at crit? Here - Evade/Crit Rate/Evaded ~ Slow/Healing +20%/ Healing +5%/1 Time Heal based on ATK/Savage Blade are our options.

Yoshida says players haven't researched - but what is there to try? I'd be wholly confused if they do not intend to change the WAR job in any way whatsoever.

I'm starting to think in 8 man WAR should simply act as a DPS and only tank OT - when the PLD goes down cover the boss just long enough for the healer to raise them and get them ready to go again because we don't seem to last long otherwise.

blind developer worship sums up pretty much all of the hilarious opposing views in this thread

never any actual data or points, just theory

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

The point the concerned WARs here are trying to make is: what exactly is he expecting us to research?

Because beyond the discrepancy created by Shield Oath, Rage of Halone and wearing a shield, there's all the defensive cooldowns that WAR doesn't appear to have much answer for either and I don't see where some magic bullet is going to come from that can make up for all that.

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I'd wager that, in looking at the defensive cooldowns, you're looking left when you need to be looking right. Warrior is not a mitigation tank - so, survive elsewhere.

Hiir Noivl's posts here seem to have it down. If you're trying to mitigate - wrong class.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I'd wager that, in looking at the defensive cooldowns, you're looking left when you need to be looking right. Warrior is not a mitigation tank - so, survive elsewhere.

Hiir Noivl's posts here seem to have it down. If you're trying to mitigate - wrong class.

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I look at both sets of cooldowns and abilities in order to determine what's the best way not to die. Mitigate, self-heal, improve healer effectiveness, whatever.

You can look at PLD and see all the dmg reduction abilities or the improved convalescence and see how effective it is in keeping the PLD alive.

Now take a look at the suite of abilities available to a WAR, and even what benefit you can get from other classes. I mean, Hiir Noivl's really pushing what a WAR is capable of, stacking certain stats, maximizing cooldown timings, maximizing group abilities and even kiting while tanking. The problem is it STILL doesn't sound like he's matched the baseline ability of a PLD not to die. A little extra DPS from a WAR does not make up for that in a group setting where your primary jobs are to A) keep the enemy focused on you and B) don't die.

I'm fine with there being a "hard mode" tank where the class is more intricate and you need to be more careful and reactive to what's going on in any given fight. But when you work harder to be a less effective tank, that's just dumb, and it certainly looks like how it's playing out at most levels of the game.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I'd wager that, in looking at the defensive cooldowns, you're looking left when you need to be looking right. Warrior is not a mitigation tank - so, survive elsewhere.

Hiir Noivl's posts here seem to have it down. If you're trying to mitigate - wrong class.

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We don't want more mitigation. We want our self heals that suck (storm's path and bloodbath) not to suck, and we want our +healing from defiance moved to defiance itself instead of having it depend on the amount of wrath we have. We don't want new or paladin skills, we just want what we have to work up to par with PLD skillset in terms of efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I'd wager that, in looking at the defensive cooldowns, you're looking left when you need to be looking right. Warrior is not a mitigation tank - so, survive elsewhere.

Hiir Noivl's posts here seem to have it down. If you're trying to mitigate - wrong class.

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Someone who thinks he has a 1.25 second global cooldown probably sounds less stupid to a level 26 who doesn't yet know that such a thing is entirely impossible. Blind leading the blind.

Please tell people doing Coil how to play the game when you have absolutely no basis to even form an idea of how the class functions.

I just did a great Garuda Run. We had a PLD who knew his stuff and with me We just stayed together and both tanked Garuda. I was able to freely DPS. When she was about to do Aerial Blast I lowered my DPS to make sure he had hate and then I took the red beam sister and just destroyed her HP and let the Party finish her off and went right back to Garuda.

It was one of the best runs yet with Garuda. I was taking some damage but I could heal myself for plenty and not take a whole lot of heals from the PLD.

Maybe people are swinging too far in favor of PLD? They should at least try to include WAR tanks with their set ups.

I believe that is the research Yoshi P is suggesting.

No silly I'm saying I might have a less than 2 but not 1.25. It might be exactly 2 or right around 2.1 but it certainly isn't close to 2.5. And this is with Fey light mind you.

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Originally Posted by Zanther

Bragging about how awesome you are at garuda is like saying how awesome you are at killing lvl 16 story bosses while wearing DL gear. Garuda is at the point where my 7 year old nephew can beat it as everyone is geared for it now.

But continue to ignore my coil comments on how bad warrior tanks are on things that require both hands to beat.

Honestly, its getting harder to hear you all the way up here in turn 5.

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I'm not bragging. What you just did is bragging. I swear I'm talking to school kids were every time I open my mouth it's

NO NEVER NUH UH FORGET IT YOU'RE DUMB :PPPPPP

In fact, I can do Garuda with 0 tanks. No healers. No DPS.

I can solo Garuda... Asleep

So there. :P

You like to throw troll bait in my direction instead of contributing you and others like you while, later on, you'll be playing WAR.

Look dude. Just because you can't tank WAR on Turn 5 doesn't mean it's not possible. Like I said, the level of hubris is way too high.