Say no to Cross-world group finders

Please no cross-server parties. It will be just like multiplayer white knight chronicles which built no comradery with other players.

On a different note, simultaneous lfg flags for a number of classes you're willing to party on would be AWESOME!

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Originally Posted by Bled

My second point was based on the political science theory of the Collective Action Problem. If you are really interested in it look it up, it is a very interesting theory and much to deep for me to really lay out and explain on a forum post which id rather not do lol.

The basic premise of it though is unless there is coercion or some other special device to make individuals in a group act in their common interest, rational, self-interested individuals will not act to achieve their common or group interests. By implementing cross server ques for instanced dungeons you are decreasing accountability because after said instance the antagonist will never see that group again, and if that group wanted to spread the word of that persons actions they couldn't because everyone is from a different server.

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Ah right, in some small senses, you could still spread word, and hope that when that character comes back to do the cross-world event again, he will be spotted and ignored? Minimal chance but very possible with their only being specific events he'd want to ninja from (and most likely limited instances).

Also to justify, even if you were able to tell people and spread the word, what good would it do? If you your friends, me my friends, and maybe some randomers all went to do an event and some big loot dropped, if it landed in my pool (because theres not lotting) and I just take it, you could say thats ninjaing, but it did land in my pool, the game gave it to me.

If we had discussed who got what first and it landed to me and I took it, then fair enough but then if you spread the word im a loot ninja who is going to remember after a month or 2? And why would I care people think this as I do not need to ever rely on them in the future? People ignoring me or not playing with me would affect my gameplay in no ways at all due to the style the game is taking.

I could play by myself or with some friends, be the biggest douche and still be able to do everything this game has to offer, so reputation is only as big as one ego's or pleasure. But in overall practice has no valuable aspect.

This is why I believe ninja looting is not a good enough excuse to dislike cross-server because the subject will not change regardless of weather cross-server is implemented or not.

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Originally Posted by viion

Ah right, in some small senses, you could still spread word, and hope that when that character comes back to do the cross-world event again, he will be spotted and ignored? Minimal chance but very possible with their only being specific events he'd want to ninja from (and most likely limited instances).

Also to justify, even if you were able to tell people and spread the word, what good would it do? If you your friends, me my friends, and maybe some randomers all went to do an event and some big loot dropped, if it landed in my pool (because theres not lotting) and I just take it, you could say thats ninjaing, but it did land in my pool, the game gave it to me.

If we had discussed who got what first and it landed to me and I took it, then fair enough but then if you spread the word im a loot ninja who is going to remember after a month or 2? And why would I care people think this as I do not need to ever rely on them in the future? People ignoring me or not playing with me would affect my gameplay in no ways at all due to the style the game is taking.

I could play by myself or with some friends, be the biggest douche and still be able to do everything this game has to offer, so reputation is only as big as one ego's or pleasure. But in overall practice has no valuable aspect.

This is why I believe ninja looting is not a good enough excuse to dislike cross-server because the subject will not change regardless of weather cross-server is implemented or not.

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You are treating ninja looting like it is the only outcome of a collective action problem in gaming, ninja looting is only one problem out of many. I agree with you if the Dev keep the same loot system in their new dungeon set up then yes it is less of an issue.

But just because you have cured one side effect does not mean you have cured the disease its self. Cross serve que is the disease.

WoW cross server group for instance:

1. Invited to group with random people.
2. lay down ground rules set up a plan; HOPEFULLY, majority of groups don't even do that.
3. you eventually start to get bored with the instance that you are running for the 151st time.
4. You finally make it to the end boss, you struggle, and rather then stick around and work things out, a person leaves in the middle of combat.

FFXI end content:

1. Invited to group of friends or most likely people who have played with before.
2. lay down ground rules set up a plan.
3. you eventually start to get bored with the content that you are running for the 151st time. However because you are all friends or acquaintances you enjoy each others company.
4. You finally make it to the end boss, you struggle, you choose to stick it out because you are held accountable in your group.

Why do you change number 1 in both WoW and FFXIV

When in both games you can both? You can play with randomers or with guild/ls friends. And in both games if you go with randomers, they may or may not do number 4.

I've been in many situations where random people got bored and left events in XI.

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Originally Posted by Bled

WoW cross server group for instance:

1. Invited to group with random people.
2. lay down ground rules set up a plan; HOPEFULLY, majority of groups don't even do that.
3. you eventually start to get bored with the instance that you are running for the 151st time.
4. You finally make it to the end boss, you struggle, and rather then stick around and work things out, a person leaves in the middle of combat.

FFXI end content:

1. Invited to group of friends or most likely people who have played with before.
2. lay down ground rules set up a plan.
3. you eventually start to get bored with the content that you are running for the 151st time. However because you are all friends or acquaintances you enjoy each others company.
4. You finally make it to the end boss, you struggle, you choose to stick it out because you are held accountable in your group.

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That #4 in both instances seem to hinge on both the concept of accountability (as you mentioned), but also I think a lack of respect for the other players in the group, as well as lack of professional courtesy.

In general, people (including MMO players) forge friendships with others because of respect for that person, and maybe also a small amount of admiration. In order to establish either of those, there must be a common history between the two.

Now in the absence of a common history, there are people who behave civilly with one another due to their personal sense of professionalism and common courtesy. That, given time, will allow for a common history between the two to begin generating, and mutual respect to start to build.

Cross-Server Grouping appears to inhibit the building of the "common history" by short-circuiting the process of social grouping. Yes, it is expedient and probably a more efficient method of grouping. But in order for the group to function properly, every member MUST have a high degree of professional courtesy. That is not statistically likely to occur if the process is random or "first come, first served".

So from my reasoning, the positive benefits of Cross-Server Grouping do not outweigh the negative effects of it.

/signed ! DONT WANT CROSS SERVER GROUPING! Will kill community for sure!

DONT DONT DONT!

My thoughts on your points:

"1) It destroys communities: With the mix and match cross world system, it will destroy the union between players from their own world. It will be like 5k players playing their own solo games"
-----This cross server idea allows for casual players to have the ability to have their adventures when they want it. I can see why it rubs non-casual players the wrong way, but ruining the community, doubtful. It simply makes it possible for players to have adventures when their LS mates or friends are not available to go with them. I have heard from other posts that one can't build comradeship with cross server players, well that is because most of the time there is no system to keep in contact with that cross-server person whom you partied with. An option to add them to friend list, ability to chat cross-server, and the ability to know when they are flagged for cross-party seek can solve that. SE probably realized that server populations are so low that there aren't enough people in the same rank range, online at the same time, and want to party at the same time to make it happen. I for one want to party and fight monsters all the time, but there aren't enough in the server community who share that feeling and be online at the same time to form a party with. This cross-server system would allow me to have my adventure rather than standing around shouting for hours to form a party. I mean, who actually enjoys seeing tons of party recruit shouts for hours on end. So if server population is an issue, we can either consolidate server populations onto fewer servers, or make the game more appealing to casual players (increase populations in general). The latter makes more business sense by having more revenue potential, so I think that is why SE is considering cross-server partying. Cross-server partying does not destroy communities because those who care about their own server community will continue to party within the community. Are you are saying that by introducing this system, the players whom you regularly party with may betray you and use this cross-server seek system? You have nothing to worry about if the union between players is already strong in your community.

"2) gives oportunity for ninja's:
With less responsability for player reputations, you can and will come across people who see this as an invitation to take advantage of the situation and rob the party of everything they worked for. However, this does have a flip side and gives some players the chance to shout "ninja" every time they do not get their own way, regardless of what may occour."
-----This problem can be made less significant by disabling cross-server LFG for dungeons and raids that drop the best gear. If we use cross-server LFG for menial rank up parties it should be fine. It would be a good way for players that were left behind and outranked by their friends to make up the SP gap on their own time. I cannot expect my LS mates to always be online at the same time when our LS leve-link parties (where most of the rank ups happen) start.

"3) player conduct: Again, with less responsabilities for player reputations. Cross-world groups makes people think they have a right to pretty much treat everyone else like dirt. No amount of racist, homophobic, sexist or otherwise derogitory name calling (often having the F word seperate every other word) has gone unheard when this feature has been implimented in other games."
-----If by other games you include Wow, I can tell you from experience that it is not as bad as you make it out to be. Such prolific profanity was rare. A player would really have to be a *ick to get that kind of treatment. Such as AF-following for free exp, or trying to get the party killed. But that was usually resolved with a vote, and a swift kick, then you just have the system replace them. Now if SE implement an option that allows us to blist cross-server players, that may help. An example would be you are the leader and create a cross-server LFG group and the system would populate your roster with players who are not on anyone's blist. For each member already in the party, the system would check their blist and avoid recruiting those names.

"4) It has been tried, and has failed:
In other games, this feature is VERY unpopular, and has often made players leave said MMO's. I will not give the names, but i am pretty sure we each have our own examples of this. So, if it has failed and is unpopular in other games (often for reason above) why is it going to be implimented here?"
-----It was quite popular when first implemented in WoW, allows for players to continuously rank whatever jobs they want. It is a means to an end. A player can rank any job quickly if they put in the time. This allows them to catch up to y friends who have already reached the level cap. I rather have my buddies catch up to me so we can go do things together than have them looking from afar wishing they were there. Yes this cross-server LFG shortens the status quo gap by reducing the time it takes to catch up on ranks/levels. But on the positive side, it is a means for friends to stay within a level range even though there is a time schedule difference.

Aria, sorry, you're wrong. I don't feel like explaining why because it's been mentioned before, but to anyone who wants an instant dungeon finder, go play a FPS, diablo2, vindictus, or any other lobby game please.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Aria, sorry, you're wrong. I don't feel like explaining why because it's been mentioned before, but to anyone who wants an instant dungeon finder, go play a FPS, diablo2, vindictus, or any other lobby game please.

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It is an idea, a discussion, no wrong or rights. Asserting your opinions and views while closing eyes and mind to all other possibilites, that will not get us far. It sounds like you simply toss out any ideas given as soon as you confirm the person sounds like a casual player. Well the player base for this game is not all core players, SE knows this and cannot disregard all the casual players. You have already stated in a previous post you wish all the casual players would go somewhere else, so I will just leave it at that and not kindle the fire from here.

That being said, I have read your posts and there is only one suggestion/solution you have actually contributed to the topic. It is

" let us search for parties on jobs we aren't currently on and on multiples jobs at once and stuff."

That indeed does work, as I've experienced in 11. It can take hours longer, but SE fixed that with level sync. But alas, we do not have such conveniences...yet.

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Originally Posted by Veridian

My thoughts on your points:

"1) It destroys communities: With the mix and match cross world system, it will destroy the union between players from their own world. It will be like 5k players playing their own solo games"
-----This cross server idea allows for casual players to have the ability to have their adventures when they want it. I can see why it rubs non-casual players the wrong way, but ruining the community, doubtful. It simply makes it possible for players to have adventures when their LS mates or friends are not available to go with them. I have heard from other posts that one can't build comradeship with cross server players, well that is because most of the time there is no system to keep in contact with that cross-server person whom you partied with. An option to add them to friend list, ability to chat cross-server, and the ability to know when they are flagged for cross-party seek can solve that. SE probably realized that server populations are so low that there aren't enough people in the same rank range, online at the same time, and want to party at the same time to make it happen. I for one want to party and fight monsters all the time, but there aren't enough in the server community who share that feeling and be online at the same time to form a party with. This cross-server system would allow me to have my adventure rather than standing around shouting for hours to form a party. I mean, who actually enjoys seeing tons of party recruit shouts for hours on end. So if server population is an issue, we can either consolidate server populations onto fewer servers, or make the game more appealing to casual players (increase populations in general). The latter makes more business sense by having more revenue potential, so I think that is why SE is considering cross-server partying. Cross-server partying does not destroy communities because those who care about their own server community will continue to party within the community. Are you are saying that by introducing this system, the players whom you regularly party with may betray you and use this cross-server seek system? You have nothing to worry about if the union between players is already strong in your community.

"2) gives oportunity for ninja's:
With less responsability for player reputations, you can and will come across people who see this as an invitation to take advantage of the situation and rob the party of everything they worked for. However, this does have a flip side and gives some players the chance to shout "ninja" every time they do not get their own way, regardless of what may occour."
-----This problem can be made less significant by disabling cross-server LFG for dungeons and raids that drop the best gear. If we use cross-server LFG for menial rank up parties it should be fine. It would be a good way for players that were left behind and outranked by their friends to make up the SP gap on their own time. I cannot expect my LS mates to always be online at the same time when our LS leve-link parties (where most of the rank ups happen) start.

"3) player conduct: Again, with less responsabilities for player reputations. Cross-world groups makes people think they have a right to pretty much treat everyone else like dirt. No amount of racist, homophobic, sexist or otherwise derogitory name calling (often having the F word seperate every other word) has gone unheard when this feature has been implimented in other games."
-----If by other games you include Wow, I can tell you from experience that it is not as bad as you make it out to be. Such prolific profanity was rare. A player would really have to be a *ick to get that kind of treatment. Such as AF-following for free exp, or trying to get the party killed. But that was usually resolved with a vote, and a swift kick, then you just have the system replace them. Now if SE implement an option that allows us to blist cross-server players, that may help. An example would be you are the leader and create a cross-server LFG group and the system would populate your roster with players who are not on anyone's blist. For each member already in the party, the system would check their blist and avoid recruiting those names.

"4) It has been tried, and has failed:
In other games, this feature is VERY unpopular, and has often made players leave said MMO's. I will not give the names, but i am pretty sure we each have our own examples of this. So, if it has failed and is unpopular in other games (often for reason above) why is it going to be implimented here?"
-----It was quite popular when first implemented in WoW, allows for players to continuously rank whatever jobs they want. It is a means to an end. A player can rank any job quickly if they put in the time. This allows them to catch up to y friends who have already reached the level cap. I rather have my buddies catch up to me so we can go do things together than have them looking from afar wishing they were there. Yes this cross-server LFG shortens the status quo gap by reducing the time it takes to catch up on ranks/levels. But on the positive side, it is a means for friends to stay within a level range even though there is a time schedule difference.

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Ok, A+ post, Thankyou VERY much for this :) (I even gave you a like 'cuz your post was so fantastic, thankyou for the breath of fresh air which is, discussion :D )

1)I do see why the more casual gamer (or gamers with more limeted time) would prefer this. Cross-server chat sounds like a good idea. But if they are going to impliment cross-server chat/grouping, would it not be easier to merge the lesser populated servers? Also, there DOES need to be a line in the sand to which an MMO is bending the mechanics of its very own genre to cater for it's fans. For example, how many mortal combat style games do you know which impliment a killing blow in one button mash? or, How many C&C do you see where you can complete every level with a handful of men? (exxluding cheats of course haha)

Also, why not plan ahead. If with rl friends, there are rl ways of communication. If not, why not rqttle up a system to post on here for events (eg: running x dungeon on sat, 21:00gmt) ppl can post yes/no on attendance, and any issues can be ironed out way before the event takes place.

2) not a bad idea. I can get on board with this if it was simply a way of polishing off those few SP points. The thing im concerned with tho, if your idea was implimented, ppl would push to have the full experience implimented. Thus, ninjas all around lol. I do think alot of my concern is that SE may be thinking small on this, but the demand for it will push it in unsafe territory.

3) The way i see it (yus, i played wow) is that lfg finder is still unpopular. Due to those very reasons. Take for example, these forums. Not many ppl would speak that way to another persons face with little concern for consequence. I find the ones that od that mostly on the forums dont have a sig of their ingame caracters lol. (more of a majority than a rule btw)

I consider myself a reasonable person. However, I draw the line when i am being insulted AND im paying a monthly subscription. I imagine a large number would have the same line on that. Also, even if the "rager" was not around for the daily antics, the groups tend to be near silent, only a few simple notes "ok, aggro that, debuff this. Oh, buff plz". In my opinion, that is not in the spirit of an MMO, that is close to clicking commands at an NPC

4) in ither games you may have a point, it is always nice to catch up with a friend quickly. However, with the rank system as it is, There is always the option of one friend changing rank to meet his/her other friend. I admit, this is not always possible, but even if LFg was implimented, one friend stilll has to grind like crazy. Either way, it seems like a bus-pass to the end game. I imagine many would follow suit if they knew of this "short cut"

Glad to respond to this,

Kimiko x

ps: we are in the same server, lets hook up some time :D

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Originally Posted by viion

Why do you change number 1 in both WoW and FFXIV

When in both games you can both? You can play with randomers or with guild/ls friends. And in both games if you go with randomers, they may or may not do number 4.

I've been in many situations where random people got bored and left events in XI.

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It is not all or nothing my post of events was just a simple example, the question is "does cross server gue's for instances help or hinder community relations and positive group dynamics".. you keep missing my point entirely and i can only think that you believe i am attacking you which i am not.

Is ninja looting currently possible in this system? - no, but keep in mind they have not mentioned the looting system yet for instances.

Are there rude people in every game you come across? - yes of course.

my point is this and i hope i am laying it out more clearly now for you:

DOES CROSS SERVER QUE'S HELP OR HINDER GROUP DYNAMICS AND OR ALL AROUND GAMING COMMUNITIES? my opinion is that it hinders. My above posts throughout this thread explain quiet vividly why it hinders IMO.

If you have a system that inspires ninja looting, and you fix ninja looting by changing the looting system that still does not change the mentality of ninja looters, and when i say ninja looters i all so mean all around TROLLS!

Hey guys the reason why cross server grouping is good because, people are not as willing to help. I recall alot of times in ffxi, WoW, Aion where I needed help or saw someone who needed help, and they and myself would get ignored. Pre dungeon finder, getting help with quests in the dungeons was almost impoosible. No one would be willing to help or join to group up. And I recalled when I did get help ppl just up and left me in the dungeon (i didn't do anyway wrong they just got gear they wanted).

If you do not want cross server grouping, do your part. Help anyone and everyone who needs it, group and grind random leves or on mobs. Stop sticking with your LS and do stuff with other players. What really leads to cross server grouping is lack of community. AkA no one in helping those out who ask for it. If you guys do not want that do your part.

"1. Invited to group with random people.
2. lay down ground rules set up a plan; HOPEFULLY, majority of groups don't even do that.
3. you eventually start to get bored with the instance that you are running for the 151st time.
4. You finally make it to the end boss, you struggle, and rather then stick around and work things out, a person leaves in the middle of combat."

this happens alot with or with out cross server grouping. Seen it tons in ffxi and WoW (pre dungeon finder).

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

Hey guys the reason why cross server grouping is good because, people are not as willing to help. I recall alot of times in ffxi, WoW, Aion where I needed help or saw someone who needed help, and they and myself would get ignored. Pre dungeon finder, getting help with quests in the dungeons was almost impoosible. No one would be willing to help or join to group up. And I recalled when I did get help ppl just up and left me in the dungeon (i didn't do anyway wrong they just got gear they wanted).

If you do not want cross server grouping, do your part. Help anyone and everyone who needs it, group and grind random leves or on mobs. Stop sticking with your LS and do stuff with other players. What really leads to cross server grouping is lack of community. AkA no one in helping those out who ask for it. If you guys do not want that do your part.

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Hmmm there is no way to empirically present to these forums that you receive no help. In my own personal experience joining a helpful LS was easy, and when the LS couldn't help me majority of people in the area would help. So now we have conflicting views that cant be proven, unless a poll was created for the community.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Hmmm there is no way to empirically present to these forums that you receive no help. In my own personal experience joining a helpful LS was easy, and when the LS couldn't help me majority of people in the area would help. So now we have conflicting views that cant be proven, unless a poll was created for the community.

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What If i didn't want to join a LS right away and I shout for groups chances are I got a nice 3+ hour wait on me.

Like I said to you in the other post. Don't complain. I wasn't looking for anything about my situation which others have experienced. Getting people to help or join should be the easy part. Not the other way around.

Which is what happen in WoW, getting groups with random people wasn't easy due to the ninja looting excuse. People on WoW are anti-pug from the servers I was on. Giving the same excuses you guys are giving. People got irritated about lack of grouping which is why they added the systems in.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

What If i didn't want to join a LS right away and I shout for groups chances are I got a nice 3+ hour wait on me.

Like I said to you in the other post. Don't complain. I wasn't looking for anything about my situation which others have experienced. Getting people to help or join should be the easy part. Not the other way around.

Which is what happen in WoW, getting groups with random people wasn't easy due to the ninja looting excuse. People on WoW are anti-pug from the servers I was on. Giving the same excuses you guys are giving. People got irritated about lack of grouping which is why they added the systems in.

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"Getting people to help or join should be the easy part" that right there is why WoW dev implemented the feature they wanted the EASY way to get people to group for instances. the easy way is not all ways the best way please stop confusing the two.

Signing in for this! no to Cross-world group finders!

Kimiko you are cmopletely right.

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Originally Posted by Bled

"Getting people to help or join should be the easy part" that right there is why WoW dev implemented the feature they wanted the EASY way to get people to group for instances. the easy way is not all ways the best way please stop confusing the two.

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sorry but that is the dumbest thing ever. No one should have to sit and wait for hour till people to join them. That is so boring, pointless and dull.
You guys really need to look at the bigger picture. These things you claim is true happens either way. Why should people get skrewed over because you guys are uppity?

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

sorry but that is the dumbest thing ever. No one should have to sit and wait for hour till people to join them. That is so boring, pointless and dull.
You guys really need to look at the bigger picture. These things you claim is true happens either way. Why should people get skrewed over because you guys are uppity?

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Making friends should not be difficult, if you have trouble with that it is not up to the developers to implement solutions for your social downfalls. If you want cross server grouping on the sole basis of easy access, play WoW no one is stopping you. With each post you make a weaker platform for cross server grouping; not even in my wildest dreams did i ever think someone wanted cross server grouping just because they have a hard time making friends in a social game.

People ignore you Kilta because your a DD rdm... and you still dont play 14 right? Your opinon doesnt matter.

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Originally Posted by Jeronlmo

People ignore you Kilta because your a DD rdm... and you still dont play 14 right? Your opinon doesnt matter.

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She still has every right to give her opinion, she has purchased a copy of the game. With that in mind she has every right to post on these forums. Se on require an account from the user to access and post on these forums, she has one.

Secondly, her opinion does matter. Just because she has yet to play the game, it does not deem her views as obsolete. To think otherwise is rude and narrow minded.

Instead of judging someone by if they play the game or not, consider that a point of view from someone who has yet to play the game is a point of view that possible future players may be sharing.

Kimiko x

We also have the right to ignore the opinion of those who prove to have nothing valuable to say (which obviously is also up to opinion). Hence why she's on my /ignore. I still have to put up with seeing 4-10 "Kilta posted something" messages in a row which gets somewhat irritating, but it's better than the alternative.

Which is why I would suggest that anyone who doesn't care for Kilta's posting/argument-style (or lack thereof), just put her on ignore. You'll save a lot of headaches.

Don't just brush someone's post off because they don't play the game (yet). They have a valid argument and you are just looking for ANY reason to discredit them because you think you are right.

On the point of world cross over, I am for it in the respect that it is an option and not a required way of making parties. Whatever content they would add that could have world cross over, I would also like to be able to do with just a party on my server, or possibly solo, if I wanted to. More options the better for the happiness of people.