FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line

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Originally Posted by klu

Yes. Because I have this idea that opening multiple threads on the same subject is unhelpful, and irritating.

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What is not helpfull ad irritating, is you polluting posts about subject that you don't care about. Let us discuss healers problems homewer we want and go elsewhere please.

Much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

What is not helpfull ad irritating, is you polluting posts about subject that you don't care about. Let us discuss healers problems homewer we want and go elsewhere please.

Much appreciated.

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Do that! I want you to!

In the thread thats already open on it.

Instead of polluting the forums with multiple "me too" threads.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

[...]Unfortunately the only way for them to stop "crapping up the forums" is if more people blocked them, but a lot of people think blocking means admitting defeat (instead of pest control) so around and around it goes.

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It also doesn't help that forum block list is as helpful as in-game's in quality. All it take is one person to reply to their post, then their supposedly unseen takes are laid bare before you lol.

Furthermore, supposedly in an ideal situation, everybody just congeal into that one page with 1000+ pages... need me to remind people that they too had a history of 'crapping' that thread with their performative care routine such as "Y'all still going on about this? ; Dev don't care lol stop necro'ing" (paraphrased)-replies. Round and roouuunnnd we goo lmao.

Also btw, asking people to convince you (general you, not specifically to you Aidorouge) in a forum of all place is a peak comedy. This is where people gather round to make their points & view upfront. People know your stance(s) already, there's only a very slim chance to convince a poster the otherwise. These posts of ForsakenRoe are meant for the dev and future readers - they are the main audience, to get them to agree and chime in; or disagree and present an idea of oppositions. There's no point in wasting time solely to convince a single individual in such space.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Unfortunately the only way for them to stop "crapping up the forums" is if more people blocked them, but a lot of people think blocking means admitting defeat (instead of pest control) so around and around it goes.

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I personally don't block people like those because I find their circular logic and obvious hypocrisy to be fascinating to watch. I constantly wonder how long it'll take for them to realise how much of an embarrassment they're being in public.

Idk, it's just funny to watch.

It’s hard to claim credibility for “put it in the megathread” when all your posts in said megathread are various ways of saying “shut up”

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Originally Posted by klu

Do that! I want you to!.

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Don't give me order kid.
Throwing tantrum and giving order like a 5 years old child get you nowhere in life.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Don't give me order kid.
Throwing tantrum and giving order like a 5 years old child get you nowhere in life.

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I am ordering you, while having a tantrum, to respond to this post.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s hard to claim credibility for “put it in the megathread” when all your posts in said megathread are various ways of saying “shut up”

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Disingenuous representation of what I said, but go on.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That too, for someone who seems to HATE healer talk, they seem to show up in every topic about healing lately, and even in the healerstrike topic its self they had nothing but mockery and whining to dole out even very early on. (IE: They don't have a problem with people bringing up the topic several times, they hate that anybody brought it up at all.)

Here's hoping that the various parts of the game they're personally critical of (and there's plenty it seems) remain equally unresolved for years to come, maybe they'll discover some empathy in the process instead of trying to be the "postapo" around here, lol.

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I'm clearly more interesting to talk about than your endless rehashed, "let's make a new thread that surely won't be endless and rehashed" discussions of healing and its issues.

Oh, and for the record, i do NOT wish that the aspects of the game you enjoy are riddled with unresolved issues for years to come.

I guess you kinda have to attack me personally though. I get it. You don't have an argument for why you should crap up the forums, and thats sad for you.

Imagine healers actually being the future of all jobs in this game.
4 buttons, the rest being all about moving around DDR style.

You know what, I'll toss you folks a bone. From today's date, I will stay out of all healer threads for one month.

No, really. I won't comment on anything.

So in one month, I'm sure I'll see that having lemme count...

Three active threads about #healerstrike (lmao) open was in fact totally the right call, and ever so much fresh and worthwhile, game-changing discussions were had, and ill know i was in the wrong.

Ready, set, go.

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Originally Posted by klu

You know what, I'll toss you folks a bone. From today's date, I will stay out of all healer threads for one month.

No, really. I won't comment on anything.

So in one month, I'm sure I'll see that having lemme count...

Three active threads about #healerstrike (lmao) open was in fact totally the right call, and ever so much fresh and worthwhile, game-changing discussions were had, and ill know i was in the wrong.

Ready, set, go.

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Your “criteria” for being wrong is something that literally nobody but you cares about

Either you come back in 1 month and go “SEE I WAS RIGHT” or “okay I admit I was wrong” and either way nobody but you cares because nobody but you has these grievances

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Originally Posted by Daudream

But onto something worth while....

This is actually a fun idea, anything that brings back water to WHM is gold in my book, also must say a lot of your ideas for healers resonate with me whenever I see you post them. Because the one thing that would help the role a lot is more and varied DPS rotations to make the jobs feel distinguished from one another as well as more fun in solo content like MSQ duties but also in healing downtime, I also also will voice my appreciation on you taking time to try and make these ideas not overburden lower skill/newer healers as well.

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Thank you for reading! IMO, one of the biggest priorities in potential adjustments/reworks, is to make sure that, even with added complexity to optionally interact with, the base kit is reliable and simple, such that a newer/less-practiced player can fall back on something that they know will do the healing job. By doing so, it gives said player more confidence in trying to stray outside of the tried-and-tested comfort zone they're used to, and experiment with more of their kit. And hey, even if they decide they want to stay in the comfort zone and not experiement, the potency balancing on things can be tuned such that doing so is less costly to their damage (compared to currently)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Thank you for reading! IMO, one of the biggest priorities in potential adjustments/reworks, is to make sure that, even with added complexity to optionally interact with, the base kit is reliable and simple, such that a newer/less-practiced player can fall back on something that they know will do the healing job. By doing so, it gives said player more confidence in trying to stray outside of the tried-and-tested comfort zone they're used to, and experiment with more of their kit. And hey, even if they decide they want to stay in the comfort zone and not experiement, the potency balancing on things can be tuned such that doing so is less costly to their damage (compared to currently)

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Well, i posted soùething like this on the other thread. it was on the spur of the moment so

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Yeah... Instead of spamming Glare III ad nauseam we will have : Aqua VII turning into Aero VIII turning into Stone IX which proc Glare X which nourish your Blood Lilly.... hey.... Not bad for something made up on the spot Oo

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Seriously, i writed this on the spur of the moment.... Now i think about it it's not bad at all.
The proc of Glare X stay up for 15S, or maybe 30S like the RDM and is instant, which fix some of the mobility issue of the WHM.
Also it's a splash AOE with 50% less damage after the first target.
The combo Aqua/Aero/Stone work a bit like a melee combo Aero do 40 potency more than Aqua and Stone do 80 more potency than Aero.

It would be not bad at all.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Well, i posted soùething like this on the other thread. it was on the spur of the moment so

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So it'd be a 1-2-3 combo (like PCT), which procs a 4th button (like PCT's White Paint), which then gives a 5th button after 3 uses? Hmm, I could see them doing the first part, but I think the second part (charging Blood Lily) wouldn't work out so well, because the whole point of the Blood Lily is to be a refund mechanic to remove the 'punishment' of healing with Lilies. This would massively increase WHM DPS, and might also cause them to want to avoid pressing their Lily heals again (after all, why would you want to use a GCD on gaining a charge, when you could spend that GCD on either Glare X which does damage and gives a charge, or the 1-2-3 combo that does damage and progresses you towards another use of the Glare X)

As for my personal take, while a 1-2-3 combo could 'work', I much prefer the granularity that a 0-100 gauge offers, and how much more precise the gauge build rate numbers can be tuned with it. That's just me though

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Originally Posted by MetaBoi

Maybe a way to "save" a card would be good. I would change redraw so that it switches the positions of the front and back slots so that you can save a card you want like Bole for a repeated TB or get rid of Arrow on the back first as you might have Spire with Empower planned for 20 seconds later becuase your summoner is getting back to their Bahamut again..

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Also, this is a good idea and there's room on the hotbars to add it, so it is now added (Sleight of Hand, level 45). I was thinking about re-adding Nocturnal Sect too at some point

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

So it'd be a 1-2-3 combo (like PCT), which procs a 4th button (like PCT's White Paint), which then gives a 5th button after 3 uses? Hmm, I could see them doing the first part, but I think the second part (charging Blood Lily) wouldn't work out so well, because the whole point of the Blood Lily is to be a refund mechanic to remove the 'punishment' of healing with Lilies. This would massively increase WHM DPS, and might also cause them to want to avoid pressing their Lily heals again (after all, why would you want to use a GCD on gaining a charge, when you could spend that GCD on either Glare X which does damage and gives a charge, or the 1-2-3 combo that does damage and progresses you towards another use of the Glare X)

As for my personal take, while a 1-2-3 combo could 'work', I much prefer the granularity that a 0-100 gauge offers, and how much more precise the gauge build rate numbers can be tuned with it. That's just me though

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Like i said, it was really on the spur of the moment, i can be greatly improved. But i don't think that a second gauge, and even less another 0-100 is the right thing for the WHM.
And i disagree for the Lilies. Since you have additional way to generate them, you can mix healing and DPS to have acces more quickly to Aflatus Misery, so clearly upping your DPS and your mobility during the DPS phase.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Well, i posted soùething like this on the other thread. it was on the spur of the moment so

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One minor thing, the reason we don't have spells that go above IV is because the Japanese version doesn't use numbers, they use the more commonly seen base>-ra>-ga>-ja suffixes, it's why we didn't get Blizzard V and Fire V, but rather High Blizzard and High Fire, there is no spell tier above -ja, so they use a new spell instead.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

One minor thing, the reason we don't have spells that go above IV is because the Japanese version doesn't use numbers, they use the more commonly seen base>-ra>-ga>-ja suffixes, it's why we didn't get Blizzard V and Fire V, but rather High Blizzard and High Fire, there is no spell tier above -ja, so they use a new spell instead.

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Which is honestly really sad we don't get those spells
As someone who has played a lot of the older final fantasy games, it would've been cool to have that

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

One minor thing, the reason we don't have spells that go above IV is because the Japanese version doesn't use numbers, they use the more commonly seen base>-ra>-ga>-ja suffixes, it's why we didn't get Blizzard V and Fire V, but rather High Blizzard and High Fire, there is no spell tier above -ja, so they use a new spell instead.

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It's the same for the French version (extra/mega/giga)

[Edit]
The only exception is SCH, because Broil is called Loi de l'ébulition in French (Boiling law) and since it's already long, it get number

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

Which is honestly really sad we don't get those spells
As someone who has played a lot of the older final fantasy games, it would've been cool to have that

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There is an argument to be made that numbered spells are also traditionally FF since early localizations had to use numbers due to a very strict character limits of 4 on spell names, which led to numbers being used, you didn't even get Fire 2, you got FIR2 and you had to like it, perhaps that mood is what the localization team was aiming for.

https://i.imgur.com/dsK20bt.png

But I agree with you, the -ra/-ga are used in so many more games, and while -ja is sparsely seen, it's more that the final tier of spells is sparsely used period.

Something I find interesting is that, where FFXIV uses suffixes or numbers depending on region, FFXI actually uses both at once, by having the number after the spell denote its 'rank' (eg Cure 3 is stronger than Cure 2), and the '-aga' suffix denotes that the spell is AOE (so you could have both at once, eg: 'Curaga 2'). So the problem we sometimes hear of in FFXIV, where some players mistakenly believe that Cure 3 is better than Cure 2 'because the number is bigger', wouldn't happen in FFXI because it'd be called Curaga. It might sound odd to us because we're not used to it, but it could have actually solved a lot of things over the years if we had such a system here too. For example, we wouldn't need to invent 'High Fire', because it'd be 'Firaga 2' (with the spell we currently call 'Fire 2' being called 'Firaga'), same for High Blizzard, it'd be Blizzaga 2. And the Thunder line, instead of being 1/3 for Single Target and 2/4 for AOE, would be Thunder/Thunder 2, and Thundaga/Thundaga 2. On WHM, on top of the Curaga example above, we'd also have had Aeroga (Aero 3). And for things like RDM and PCT, 'Firaga in Red' instead of 'Fire 2 in Red' or VerThundaga instead of VerThunder 2 (but VerThunder 3 goes back to being singletarget)

Reason I find it interesting though, is that SE were very obviously trying to make 'FFXI, but again' when they released FFXIV 1.0, so obviously in fact, that we didn't have access to female Roegadyn or Male Miqote on launch because those options aren't a thing in FFXI either. So, if they were sticking so rigidly to their previous playbook, what made them deviate on spell naming nomenclature, of all things?

Even that runs into some likely points of confusion, though. Elsewhere, the norm was -Ra for AoE, -Aga for nuke, and -Aja for a yet more limited but powerful nuke/special-feature action (where said special feature may or may not be that it's AoE). Elsewhere still, being AoE may count as just another special feature, such that even -ra could be anywhere from a bonus DoT portion to a longer duration to the normal DoT ticking to the skill becoming multi-target or applying vulnerability, though usually at commensurate extra cost.

But yeah, especially given that we're in a game where the vast majority of horizontally slashing attacks are nonetheless AoE, a simple AoE vs. non-AoE designation would make sense, even if until recently things like Fire 1 and Fire III differed in function while remaining nonredundant.

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So, if they were sticking so rigidly to their previous playbook, what made them deviate on spell naming nomenclature, of all things?

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Tbf, even weirder, 1.x still had some -ra/-na and -ga suffixes mixed in with its 1, 2, and 3. Yoshida then them swapped entirely to -ra / -ga only to then swap purely to I/II/III/IV with ARR... ???

(Was also interesting to find unimplemented mechano-arcanist (Distaff-user), Gunner/Musketeer, and some sort of mace-user abilities among the mined 1.0 database just now. : o)

I think it was -aga : AoE centered on target -ra : AoE centered on caster

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Like i said, it was really on the spur of the moment, i can be greatly improved. But i don't think that a second gauge, and even less another 0-100 is the right thing for the WHM.
And i disagree for the Lilies. Since you have additional way to generate them, you can mix healing and DPS to have acces more quickly to Aflatus Misery, so clearly upping your DPS and your mobility during the DPS phase.

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The ideal play would not use any lily heal (unless downtime), or you would use a lily heal in their burst to use two Afflatus Miseries in the burst window. But I like 1-2-3 combo for healers. Simple enough but can add something to keep track of.

Well, I went ahead and added Nocturnal Sect back to the AST. The Macrocosmos idea is definitely a meta-shaper at the power level it currently sits at, but hey, potencies aren't set in stone, numbers are subject to tuning, and job effectiveness may vary according to player skill. It'd also definitely have massive synergy with WHM's Liturgy of the Bell, allowing you to effectively 'ignore' the damage of any one mechanic (at the cost of only being able to do such 'ignoring' once per 3min)

Also has to be remembered that certain mechanics would function very differently because of it. For example, while the current Macrocosmos (which is 'Diurnal' here) was able to delete the mechanic in P3S (due to the party taking 10m damage beforehand, leading to Macrocosmos 'compiling' 5m worth of healing), trying the same thing with Nocturnal Macrocosmos would not only not work, it'd be a death sentence for the party (as while it would reduce the 10m to 5m, it'd also store a DOT of 5m over 15s, or 1m per tick, impossible to heal through). This would mean that a Diurnal and Nocturnal AST would have to approach fights from completely different angles, and use their actions in very different ways, despite being the same job at their core