Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I think kicking and deporting people from the party if they are objectively not playing up to the requirement to pass the duty, or if their performance doesn't meet the ascribed reason for the party forming in the first place (e.g., parsing or farm parties) - Then this is OK, I don't think it is inherently toxic to do so.

"You did xxxx dps I want uyyyy dps"

"You did xxx dps, but my values are ( insert ridiculous figure ) so you didnt do enough"

And,....the oldie but a gooidie

" You won the roll but I dont think you did enough dps so Im giving iut to this person ( insert name of buddy or friend or girlfriend"

DPS meters have what I call a cascade effect, you do xx dps they say they want y dps..you do that and they want more..and more and more until it becomes a sick joke. People become fixated on "performance metrics" and "throughput" and key performance" and "acceptable dps vs arbitrary figure they pull out of their rear"

Thats not a game

Thats a job.

No.

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Damn that's crazy, if only you could host your own groups that dont do silly things. Together with all the other normal gamers that also dont want to do silly things and instead just chill and have fun.

Obviously this is very tongue in cheek but if a group is forming with a specific set of expectations and you dont meet those expectations then you have no place in that group. You cant force a static to include you.

I find this doomsaying very weird because if we assume most people dont treat the game like a job in terms of performance metrics right now but at the same time claim that open parsing would mean this enormous increase in toxic parsing then we have to realize that the evil elistists arent nearly enough people to cause that. Instead we have to assume that this huge increase has to mainly come from casual players.
Which again leads me to the same conclusion I come to many times: all people can do is project.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yes. I do. Your response is why. it can be and has been and will be abused.

So you are again proving my point.

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No one is saying it will not be abused so what point exactly? Thing why are you so against this but not other things that can and have been abused and promote "toxic" behavior? This selective way the community goes about things is just ZZZ.

Still I bet you cannot say with a straight face and while telling truth that majority of your encounters in WoW were negative since if they were no way you would have played as long as you did.

Unless you are saying 1 time is too many then so be it, but if that is your standard why are not advocating to remove other elements of the game. Parsing seems to be expectation where blame is placed on the tool instead of the player. Why is that?

End of the day from simple numbers POV it is disingenuous to say parsing will have increase to a point where it will negatively impact a vast majority of players. You are simply advocating the barring of a tool to protect the minority.

Also say if it was magically added what is stopping you from not using or requiring them in your own groups?

He'll even a simple break down after a dungeon would be neat

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No one is saying it will not be abused so what point exactly

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So why put a feature into a game that you know will be abused?

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Still I bet you cannot say with a straight face and while telling truth that majority of your encounters in WoW were negative since if they were no way you would have played as long as you did.

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Over eight years? More than I can count.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

So why put a feature into a game that you know will be abused?


Over eight years? More than I can count.

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Why put any feature into the game that we know will be abused? Oh right, because of the gameplay benefits.

I seriously, HIGHLY doubt those supposedly "more than you can count" runs outnumber the good runs you've had, nor come anywhere close and you're probably just remembering the bad runs because bad things tend to stick out in our minds more often. And anecdotal evidence is useless, I can honestly say my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. I'll admit there MIGHT have been one or two dungeons where someone pulled that crap, but the vastly overwhelming majority of my dungeons have at worst been completely silent, and I've run a metric crapton of dungeons. Why should we value one anecdotal, unprovable evidence over another? (we shouldn't)

Some of the concern I've been seeing in these posts is people will be able to more easily harass others or exclude people from parties. A few problems with that:
People can't suddenly break TOS, like... you start getting harassed in a dungeon over your DPS, that's an easy report that'll hopefully get that idiot removed from the game. Win. However, I'm willing to bet that given how people in dungeons barely talk as it is (often for fear of being reported for harassment...), any amount of abuse of a damage meter will be on the extremely low side. People are insanely adverse to vote kicking problem party members already, it's gonna be a hard sell for me that harassment is going to increase any noticeable amount.
The TOS can be modified to account for an in game damage meter to cover bases.
Exclusions and things from PF? THAT ALREADY HAPPENS. Literally all the time. Ridiculous ilvl requirements for non-parse focused groups are quite common. People who worry about DPS capabilities enough to exclude jobs are already going to do that with ACT/FFLogs. And you know what? As dumb as it is, *that is the SE given right of the party leader*. Don't like it? TOO BAD, you're not entitled to be able to join every single group on PF. That's not harassment. Stupidity, in some cases sure, but it's not harassment. And SE can easily limit damage meters to just savage/ultimate content anyways so the potential for abuse in casual content is non-existent. I'm not sure why everyone's acting like it's an all or nothing implementation.

So, what exactly would the benefit of adding a DPS meter to casual content be? I'm having trouble envisioning it, as 99% of this games casual content does not have real DPS checks and failure is borderline impossible.

I think a DPS meter that is exclusively restricted to high-end duties ala Duty Recorder would be a much more reasonable request, though I would still personally oppose it.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I'm not sure why everyone's acting like it's an all or nothing implementation.

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I think it's because the original premise of the thread mentioned commendations specifically, which would imply it would be accessible in Duty Finder content.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yes. I do. Your response is why. it can be and has been and will be abused.

So you are again proving my point.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

So why put a feature into a game that you know will be abused?



Over eight years? More than I can count.

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So why have housing? Why have party finder? Why have jobs so different amounts of damage? All of these can lead to a form of abuse, exclusion, harassment etc . . .

Also the more times than you can count is a cop out answer. You know you cannot say most your encounters were negative unless you were the common factor if that is then I do better understand your position.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

So, what exactly would the benefit of adding a DPS meter to casual content be? I'm having trouble envisioning it, as 99% of this games casual content does not have real DPS checks and failure is borderline impossible.

I think a DPS meter that is exclusively restricted to high-end duties ala Duty Recorder would be a much more reasonable request, though I would still personally oppose it.




I think it's because the original premise of the thread mentioned commendations specifically, which would imply it would be accessible in Duty Finder content.

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I don't really think there'd be a significant enough benefit to dungeons, trials, and alliance raids to add them. MAYBE a case could be made for extremes? But dungeons literally do not matter as long as people are pressing their buttons and at least *trying* to play properly, and it's usually easy enough to tell if someone's not pulling their weight anyways (free cure fishing no DPS healers, DPS not using AoEs on W2W pulls, tanks not cycling mits, etc). Alliance raids are typically so chaotic that I don't know how useful the information would even be.

I note that this is one of dozens of threads that have had the same result

Nothing.

Same old arguments hashed and rehashed. It isnt happening.

Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I note that this is one of dozens of threads that have had the same result

Nothing.

Same old arguments hashed and rehashed. It isnt happening.

Deal with it.

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It is a forum people are free to discuss, and even if it will not happen as stated many times it is nice to see why people feel the way they do. Though it is hard when people just say parsing is bad that is why. Lol

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

This just in: Harassment will suddenly be allowed if damage meters were added to the game.

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wot next? boss mechanics "will suddenly make Harassmet be allowed"? coz u can wipe on it?
removing a feature, coz some people cant behave is not an argument.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I note that this is one of dozens of threads that have had the same result

Nothing.

Same old arguments hashed and rehashed. It isnt happening.

Deal with it.

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Of course it isn't, we all know that. I doubt anyone here is actually expecting SE to add damage meters to the game. Doesn't mean we can't talk about it, on the public forums no less. We're still gonna talk about it. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Remolia

wot next? boss mechanics "will suddenly make Harassmet be allowed"? coz u can wipe on it?
removing a feature, coz some people cant behave is not an argument.

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No, the leader just disbands the pt silently, lmao.
Can't get in trouble if you don't say a word~!

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

No, the leader just disbands the pt silently, lmao.
Can't get in trouble if you don't say a word~!

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Or better yet!? Add that name into some public spreadsheet to make more people aware! It’s fine! It wasn’t done in-game, nothing is said in-game too! It’s working as intended, have a nice day! Great community, by the way! /s

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Or better yet!? Add that name into some public spreadsheet to make more people aware! It’s fine! It wasn’t done in-game, nothing is said in-game too! It’s working as intended, have a nice day! Great community, by the way! /s

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*looks at the guy with the lewd twitter screenshots*
*looks at the guy who streamed with auto-placing markers*
Nah, they will still go after ya. :/

If we are all being honest we all know the most toxic part of our community is the RP side. The horror stories I have been told, geez RP'ers make raiders seem like petty mean girls in the grand scheme.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

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See the reality is, that many people just want to ensure that people are performing just adequately to the expectations of the party finder. Now, you can argue this is a toxic thing to do if you really want to stretch your imagination, but really, this is something that already permeates pretty extensively in real life anyway. What people do with their own party is their own prerogative, which is OK to do so, provided they are not using this prerogative to be a clown, something that the latter part of my paragraph addressed. There is absolutely nothing that stops you from creating your own party.

I don't see why a person should be in a party created exclusively to farm, if they cannot adequately contribute, or if they do objectively hold back the group, really, unless you're joining a party that is going in there exclusively to do logging, the probability of you jumping into this scenario is not really all that high. At least not really as high as you're making this out to be. Most people just care about the extent of the damage is sufficient enough to skip a major mechanic (e.g., 2nd Astral Eclipse)

In reality, the only people that care about performance metrics to a fixated degree, like you're trying to portray are those that are logging parties. Now, my question to you or anyone is... Why would you feel inclined to join these parties in the first place if your objective is not pushing the boundaries of your job? Most farm parties just want the consistency to reliably farm a particular piece of content without unnecessary wipes, or, well, they set the expectation in advance of the party (e.g., must skip xyz)

Again, there is nothing that stops you from making your own party completely and utterly devoid of all requirements or expectations whatsoever. Heck, you can even make your own party for no job stone dungeons if you like and nobody will care -- Because it is your party and you've set those expectations and goals. -- The only time anything is troublesome is when people use this to shame and harass people for unnecessary reasons without just kicking them. Harassment is a far, far greater issue than people making parties with their own expectations that are already pretty clearly outlined in the first place.

wow now that theirs blood in the water here come the troll sharks to feed.

Think if they ever were to add flat out meters or something like pvp scoreboard it'll likely only reveal your personal score to you so it would be something at least...

When it comes down to it, whether damage meters will be implemented depends on whether it promotes player toxicity which SE does not want in its community.

You can't not ignore at the elephant in the room which is WoW and honestly tell me that it doesn't.

Existing promotes toxicity tbh.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...sdefault_2.jpg

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Originally Posted by DeNada

When it comes down to it, whether damage meters will be implemented depends on whether it promotes player toxicity which SE does not want in its community.

You can't not ignore at the elephant in the room which is WoW and honestly tell me that it doesn't.

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Why do people paint WoW as some toxic hell scape? WoW's level of toxicity does vary that much from FFXIV's or really any other community. Breathing promotes toxic behavior. Some people are just assholes tools or no tools, if we go by your logic then SE best start removing a lot of features cause they promote players being toxic.

Let us be real there is a reason why great community BTW is a meme.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Why do people paint WoW as some toxic hell scape? WoW's level of toxicity does vary that much from FFXIV's or really any other community. Breathing promotes toxic behavior. Some people are just assholes tools or no tools, if we go by your logic then SE best start removing a lot of features cause they promote players being toxic.

Let us be real there is a reason why great community BTW is a meme.

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Because it literally is. Barrens chat was more than just a meme (and the trade channel now a days is just as bad) and I've lost track of the amount of nonsense that goes on in dungeon runs. I can't really recall a single time someone was vote kicked out of a dungeon in XIV unless they were just outright afk or dc'd and that was rare. In WoW, seeing the vote kick prompt was something that I would literally see occur at least once a day and sometimes more for the most ridiculous reasons.

WoW is 100% a toxic hell scape.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

No, the leader just disbands the pt silently, lmao.
Can't get in trouble if you don't say a word~!

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Then that’s not harassment??? The he group can remove you at any time for any reason. They just can’t harangue you about it.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because it literally is. Barrens chat was more than just a meme (and the trade channel now a days is just as bad) and I've lost track of the amount of nonsense that goes on in dungeon runs. I can't really recall a single time someone was vote kicked out of a dungeon in XIV unless they were just outright afk or dc'd and that was rare. In WoW, seeing the vote kick prompt was something that I would literally see occur at least once a day and sometimes more for the most ridiculous reasons.

WoW is 100% a toxic hell scape.

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Any "global" channel inevitably turns into a complete and utter cesspool due to the GIF Theory:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...intfuckwad.jpg


Anonymity + audience + lack of repercussions = people spouting nonsense for attention.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because it literally is. Barrens chat was more than just a meme (and the trade channel now a days is just as bad) and I've lost track of the amount of nonsense that goes on in dungeon runs. I can't really recall a single time someone was vote kicked out of a dungeon in XIV unless they were just outright afk or dc'd and that was rare. In WoW, seeing the vote kick prompt was something that I would literally see occur at least once a day and sometimes more for the most ridiculous reasons.

WoW is 100% a toxic hell scape.

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Oh boy here we go again with anecdotal evidence like it actually proves anything.

Really curious what trade chat you're looking at because I play on a pretty active server and trade chat is almost silent, and what IS said is usually game relevant. And I highly, HIGHLY doubt you'd see a vote kick a day for stupid reasons, when dungeons in WoW are quite often as silent as 14 dungeons.

And the reason you don't see people get kicked in 14 dungeons is because people in this game are insanely adverse to kicking even when someone is being stupid, and people barely talk because of the risk of getting reported. Stop thinking 14 is some pristine, amazing community, it's just as toxic as WoW, people just have to be more subtle about it.

The day they will introduce damage meters and another WoW-style nonsense, will be the day the game stops being fun and I’ll leave.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Oh boy here we go again with anecdotal evidence like it actually proves anything.

Really curious what trade chat you're looking at because I play on a pretty active server and trade chat is almost silent, and what IS said is usually game relevant. And I highly, HIGHLY doubt you'd see a vote kick a day for stupid reasons, when dungeons in WoW are quite often as silent as 14 dungeons.

And the reason you don't see people get kicked in 14 dungeons is because people in this game are insanely adverse to kicking even when someone is being stupid, and people barely talk because of the risk of getting reported. Stop thinking 14 is some pristine, amazing community, it's just as toxic as WoW, people just have to be more subtle about it.

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Pretty much anytime I get an itch and go back to wow for a month or so, Trade chat has become the default LFG chat and is going extremely fast.

NA server though, Mid population, YMMV.

Doesn't explain, why people clear savage raids without it... there is people on consoles out there, and they even use Duty Finder in Japan to get game going with.

If your ilevel is there and you put in the materia, maybe bring some food.... rest is just learning how to use your job... then you need to find out how to pull that off the best during the boss fights... and that is also easy to figure out.

But people is stuck on the crouch ACT and Cactbot I guess?

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Doesn't explain, why people clear savage raids without it... there is people on consoles out there, and they even use Duty Finder in Japan to get game going with.

If your ilevel is there and you put in the materia, maybe bring some food.... rest is just learning how to use your job... then you need to find out how to pull that off the best during the boss fights... and that is also easy to figure out.

But people is stuck on the crouch ACT and Cactbot I guess?

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Of course you can clear without it. Doesn't change the objective fact that ACT still offers useful information that can help someone improve.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Doesn't explain, why people clear savage raids without it... there is people on consoles out there, and they even use Duty Finder in Japan to get game going with.

If your ilevel is there and you put in the materia, maybe bring some food.... rest is just learning how to use your job... then you need to find out how to pull that off the best during the boss fights... and that is also easy to figure out.

But people is stuck on the crouch ACT and Cactbot I guess?

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If you’ve ever done savage or even extremes, look yourself up on FFlogs. People are recording your performance without you even knowing it. If Nothing happened it’s because you weren’t a drain on the party.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Oh boy here we go again with anecdotal evidence like it actually proves anything.

Really curious what trade chat you're looking at because I play on a pretty active server and trade chat is almost silent, and what IS said is usually game relevant. And I highly, HIGHLY doubt you'd see a vote kick a day for stupid reasons, when dungeons in WoW are quite often as silent as 14 dungeons.

And the reason you don't see people get kicked in 14 dungeons is because people in this game are insanely adverse to kicking even when someone is being stupid, and people barely talk because of the risk of getting reported. Stop thinking 14 is some pristine, amazing community, it's just as toxic as WoW, people just have to be more subtle about it.

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Ya so anecdotal that most people that talk about WoW have the exact same experiences. WoW didn't get its toxic reputation for no reason at all.

14 didn't get a meme made about its toxic environment for no reason either and yet here we are. Our poop doesn't smell any better than WoW's and peoples' tendency to treat WoW like a boogeyman doesn't suddenly make it worse than it is.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Ya so anecdotal that most people that talk about WoW have the exact same experiences. WoW didn't get its toxic reputation for no reason at all.

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Oh noes the bads were called out

We dont need an official damage meter. We need better tutorials for new players to learn the game better outside of a super casual setting XD

yeah. they could add a tutorial how to read tooltips and how aoe dmg works.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

yeah. they could add a tutorial how to read tooltips and how aoe dmg works.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

We dont need an official damage meter. We need better tutorials for new players to learn the game better outside of a super casual setting XD

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Honestly true. And since SE seems weirdly adverse to removing the traps that are Cure 1 and the like, make it clear that those abilities ought not to be used once you get their upgrades. And make it so tanks realize it's not some crime unto God himself if someone pulls mobs instead of them because they have the most braindead tanking of any MMO I've ever played. And make DPS understand the very barest of basics of their jobs (I'm talking crap like how dual cast works for RDM, how dance partner works for DNC, etc). Man, if only...

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because it literally is. Barrens chat was more than just a meme (and the trade channel now a days is just as bad) and I've lost track of the amount of nonsense that goes on in dungeon runs. I can't really recall a single time someone was vote kicked out of a dungeon in XIV unless they were just outright afk or dc'd and that was rare. In WoW, seeing the vote kick prompt was something that I would literally see occur at least once a day and sometimes more for the most ridiculous reasons.

WoW is 100% a toxic hell scape.

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What server do you play on? I wish to see this toxic hell scape. I wonder if the people that thought WoW was a hell scape of toxicity were also the same players that did not bother to read their tooltips and were lfr heroes that tried to step into M+ but got shunned because of their level of performance, and now WoW is a toxic hell scape. I wish I saw this overly toxic community that people speak of, but all I found was a community that expects a general level of competence past leveling content.

I'd settle with them taking a less hardline approach to mods in general. Sure ban the guy using damage numbers to be toxic, but don't ban people for simply saying they exist or showing them on a stream.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I'd settle with them taking a less hardline approach to mods in general. Sure ban the guy using damage numbers to be toxic, but don't ban people for simply saying they exist or showing them on a stream.

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No, Streamers are the reason why AddOns gets used in a Game where AddOns are forbidden.
Every Streamer who shows 1 AddOn, should be punished for it.
Cause Players who watch those Streams are the first ones who are searching for those shown AddOn's.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

What server do you play on? I wish to see this toxic hell scape. I wonder if the people that thought WoW was a hell scape of toxicity were also the same players that did not bother to read their tooltips and were lfr heroes that tried to step into M+ but got shunned because of their level of performance,

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You don't see the toxicity because you are the toxic one lol.