YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Press Equilibrium on WAR.
Any strays will magnet to you.

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Heck, popping any (de)buff will pull off others any mob that is also technically engaged against you. All buff/debuff applications have a small amount of enmity attached, and that can be useful after being multiplied a dozenfold by tank stance. (This is also why HoTs' application can still pull off the facepuller even after the ticks' enmity has been removed... which facepullers can in turn pull back by popping any buff of their own.)

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Press Equilibrium on WAR.
Any strays will magnet to you.

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The Blue Mage school of threat management.

to me the issue with YPYT is that it can go both ways. I've seen plenty of people pull big groups then run around several bends in the map trying to collect more mobs while I the healer is still trying to catch up with them. (sprint is on cooldown from the last time they ran ahead) and so by the the time I can get the tank in my effective range they are basically dead and I can't heal them fast enough from that point with as big of a crowd they had pulled and then with mob of that size once the tank is gone there's no way to keep up the dps's and try to rez the tank at the same time with only one healer. or situations where me and one of my tank friends are working on a mob of the size we know we can handle and someone then brings in a whole bunch more monsters and it gets to be to much and again we end up going down. I've also seen situations where one person said they need to take a bathroom break so most of us are waiting for them to get back but then one guy decides to just pull them and we have to try fighting now one man down because they couldn't wait a few mins.

But I've also had those who will be downright rude to me if I don't follow their favorite pattern to a t, and of course don't let me know what that is those people I'm much more inclined not to help.

As a tank my job is to hold threat and survive. If I have not collected threat on the mob then that is problem for whomever did pull it. I pull based on my survivability and where my Cooldowns are at. YPYT is no more griefing then a DPS failing to target swap or a player refusing to stack. I play by my role and if you feel you can tank better; you will be happy to know that there are 2 tank jobs that don't even require you to start over. - pick up those jobs if you want to control the flow of progress in the dungeon is my advice.

As a tank I do not like folks trying to "rush" me - especially given that most dungeons are tailored now to 2 pack pulls max. Otherwise I would ask SE to bring out DPS meters so we can start reporting underperforming DPS....after all its THEIR job to make the mob dead. If we are going to start putting in a time restriction - then I do not want to see a second cast of reinforcements get off in the current end game dungeons.

Or we can just stop trying to force people to move outside their comfort zone because they are not up to someone elses standards - fortunately even the SLOWEST roulettes end in about 90 mins.

I got no issue with a RDP pulling mobs into my AOE cluster for example....but especially in low levels I seen more then a few GNB get destroyed because DPS knew best....and thats to say nothing of Aurum Vale.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

As a tank my job is to hold threat and survive. If I have not collected threat on the mob then that is problem for whomever did pull it.

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On that same thread, are DPS that single target large pulls griefing as well? What about healers that don't DPS?

Every player should play the game the way I tell them to :)

I mean if a DPS does not want to AOE who am I to stop them?
Ditto for healers; especially leveling whom often do not actually DPS while leveling up?

I would say similar thread - the difference being that I am not FORCING the DPS nor Healer to do something while I am tanking. A DPS pulling mobs is now dictating "my" job (as mentioned before especially newer tanks that do not have a good comfortable grasp of when they need what CDs)
If a DPS chooses to single target; thats their choice; its probably not going to get me killed.
If a healer chooses not to dps - likewise.

If they pull stuff I am not ready for or comfortable with pulling - then their actions force me to do something. The threads are similar however; and the comedy is that some people probably do think they are "in charge" of the group. Tanks are the ideal for tanking mobs; but 1 mob is not probably going to melt a dps anyways.

its a game you play with other people. so everyone in the group should do its best. everything else would be unpolite. of course that includes dps aoe and positionals, healer dmg (if they have time) and how much a tank pulls

i dont understand how people can defend beimg lazy (which means they push what they could do onto others)
i dont expect perfect gameplay, but trying to do its best for the group isnt too much.... mistakes are allowed, but so many people who dont grow because they stay in their little comfortable bubble

For my part on any dungeon I ask the healer if they want single, double, or wall to wall pulls, and then expect folks to abide by that, if they're a jerk about it and ignore the rate we agreed on at the beginning, I don't turn off tank stance but I ask them politely once, then second point, if the dps keeps at it I tell them next time I'm shirking to them, and the third time they do it I begin shirking onto them until I can initiate a vote-kick.

It's not about hard and fast ypyt, it's about what's fun for everyone in the party.

Ultimatly this is a team sport everyone has roles to do if DPS was ment to pull then they could pull wall to wall keep aggro and live, the tank and healer set the pace as if they can handle wall to wall they will its a communication thing and ive literaly been told by the DPS can pull crew they dont have to talk to anyone in the party and do what they want and if the tank dosnt like it dont tank or go to trust. im sorry but PULLING threat is what the tank dose i don't see DPS pulls in savages. if your in a group thats cool with it by all means but thats communication. I see from the pro dps pulling alot of excuses and justafication on why its ok, even though the trinity of groups has all ways been tank pulls threat, and the second the tank who trys to say i cant or dont like this can you let me the tank is evil an griefing i dont get it. im sorry but if your standered attituid is i can pull as a DPS even though your class is not desined to do so, lack or armor, smaller HP, no CDs you have defensive yes but not a CD and lack of threat generation means no you dont have the tools, your the toxic sorry. even boot camp in the game tells us the basic let the tank pull so they can group it all up for your aoe and not have to worry same with the healer if your pulling your taking needless dmg. but agian if your in a group and thier cool with do what your heat wants otherwise be apart of the team dont put the tank on the bench be the tank, dont tell them to go to trust thats just BS of the highest order.

'always been' eh?

yeah in other games. because in other games there are reasons for it.

1. pulling generates a LOT of aggro. so much its difficult to generate more aggro even for the tank. (especially since tanks often dont generate duch an overkill of aggro in other games)

2. adds do so much dmg they kill a dps in like 1 second.

3. there are so many enemies in one room (some of them moving around) which makes it necessary to pull very careful. otherwise you would have like 20 enemies attacking you at once.

these are the reasons why usually a tank is the one pulling... but NONE of these reasons apply to ff14.

tanks arent even the groups leader. everyone can explain stuff and lead the group through a dungeon.
but since HW, there isnt even a need to lead people through dungeons because they all are one way corridors anyway.

and because all of that its not really important who pulls. not like 1-2 attacks from the tank are enough to get the aggro. right?

now... because dungeons are simply corridors there shouldnt really be a reason for the dps to pull... every enemy stands on the way the whole group has to walk anyway.

but i guess its the tank who decides: 'i am the leader because... well... i am great. so i can decide to only pull one group of enemies. healers dont wanna heal anyway. and dps arent a factor in thrashpulls... like what could they possibly do to help?'

if the tank pulls there is no reasons for others to pull... if you pull too much to handle... well people dont get better if they stay in their comfortable little bubble. what could possibly happen? you die? oh no how terrible dieing in a game.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

If they pull stuff I am not ready for or comfortable with pulling - then their actions force me to do something. The threads are similar however; and the comedy is that some people probably do think they are "in charge" of the group. Tanks are the ideal for tanking mobs; but 1 mob is not probably going to melt a dps anyways.

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This simply isn't accurate. By level 50, you should be using the same suite of CD regardless of the pull size. It will be some combination of Rampart/30% followed by your short CD and so forth. Small pulls give a false impression tanks don't need CDs because the mobs do hilariously little damage. In fact, a DPS can outright tank three mobs entirely on their own with Second Wind and Bloodbath. The only person really impacted by pull size from 50+ is the healer.

Now at 50, we can exercise some leeway if they're fresh. By 60, there is simply no excuse to pull less than two packs if not the room entirely. You aren't new and every dungeon is essentially the same just with a different coat of paint. Pulling less than that means you aren't a tank. You're a gimped DPS. You've had 50+ levels to get "comfortable". If you're level 71 and baby pulling Holminster Switch, either go back to the early dungeons and practice or use Trusts. They're literally designed for players to move at their leisure. If you queue into DF, then be prepared to deal with DPS and Healers who aren't interested in a slow run because you're "not comfortable." Is it selfish? Yep. Just like you demanding they accommodate your pace because "I'm the tank" is equally selfish.

In the end, do what the majority wants.

Shoutout to the tank I had in the Aery that had a full melt down over me as a Scholar who had the audacity to run fast so I can hardcast Adloquim in his ass. Removed stance and shirked at 2nd boss. The other two DPS didnt tolerate his bullshit and we killed the 2nd boss without a tank. Kicked him after that.

Some mediocre tanks really do gotta be offended. It's a freaking normal dungeon. And tanks are literally overpowered. Do the party a favour and save us the 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

In fact, a DPS can outright tank three mobs entirely on their own with Second Wind and Bloodbath. The only person really impacted by pull size from 50+ is the healer.

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Not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure a DPS would get destroyed by three dungeon-difficulty enemies in short order unless a healer backed them up. I ducked into a level 50 dungeon (unrestricted, level sync) and sure bloodbath helps but you aren't taking down 3 mobs quick enough. I'm sure there are scenarios where it is possible, but it definitely isn't a sure thing to try and do this with a DPS with no backup heals.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure a DPS would get destroyed by three dungeon-difficulty enemies in short order unless a healer backed them up. I ducked into a level 50 dungeon (unrestricted, level sync) and sure bloodbath helps but you aren't taking down 3 mobs quick enough. I'm sure there are scenarios where it is possible, but it definitely isn't a sure thing to try and do this with a DPS with no backup heals.

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I think it's fair to say a DPS can tank a few dungeon mobs without external healing, just not typically also without other people helping burn the mobs down, since they'd need to die roughly within Bloodbath's duration.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

Shoutout to the tank I had in the Aery that had a full melt down over me as a Scholar who had the audacity to run fast so I can hardcast Adloquim in his ass. Removed stance and shirked at 2nd boss. The other two DPS didnt tolerate his bullshit and we killed the 2nd boss without a tank. Kicked him after that.

Some mediocre tanks really do gotta be offended. It's a freaking normal dungeon. And tanks are literally overpowered. Do the party a favour and save us the 5 minutes.

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It's only ever the mediocre players that get this mentality, too. Ever notice that? Players that are actually good (not that there's much of a difference in dungeons) tend to be pretty chill about the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure a DPS would get destroyed by three dungeon-difficulty enemies in short order unless a healer backed them up. I ducked into a level 50 dungeon (unrestricted, level sync) and sure bloodbath helps but you aren't taking down 3 mobs quick enough. I'm sure there are scenarios where it is possible, but it definitely isn't a sure thing to try and do this with a DPS with no backup heals.

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What Shurrikhan said. The assumption is you have another DPS and Healer dealing damage while the tank throws their temper tantrum. In such a scenario, three mobs will likely die within Bloodbath's duration. Admittedly, some leveling dungeons can be an exception to this.

This is not WoW.

• You don't have routes in your dungeons as every dungeon after ARR is just a "pull everything in one hallway, no you do not skip adds" tanking experience..
• You have effective and amazing cooldowns that are on the OGCD that are up every 30, 60, 120, 180 seconds (respectively).
• Every tank has a spammable cooldown that's up constantly and ridiculously strong (Sheltron, Bloodwhetting, Heart of Stone, and TBN), and only one of them is tied to your DPS resource (DRK).
• You have an immunity that you can just pop as a first cooldown in every first mass pull. Every tank has one, and they're all stopping you from dying for TEN WHOLE SECONDS.
• You don't even have to manage threat either. You turn on tank stance and throw two GCDs and keep autoattacking something and you will hold threat for at least 4-6 mins unless you have a cotank actually pressing GCDs.
• Your interrupts aren't even mandatory either. It's just a minor inconvenience if you don't interrupt skills in dungeons. Hell STUNNING mobs isn't a concept here because the dungeons are a joke.

So honestly, just tag the mob when somebody pulls. It's no biggie. A lot of dungeons stop you from pulling too much regardless anyway so this is the perfect game to try tanking out.

> YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role


I guess those DPS who do single target damage in AOE pulls are griefing too.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

> YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role


I guess those DPS who do single target damage in AOE pulls are griefing too.

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That's more akin to a tank who won't AoE, pop buffs, etc., while the mirror of YPYT would be more like gleefully dropping mechanics on others or stopping damage the moment there's an actual lethal dps check (if one could random an old dungeon that still has one).

But yes, if they're doing so out of neglect/disdain rather than any form of ignorance, that'd be griefing; the negative impact on the party far outstrips the negative impact of having to spam button [sequence] B instead of button [sequence] A. But, note that this exempts actual ignorance/unfamiliarity; else this would be called "playing the game while effectively blind irl is griefing," rather than "YPYT".

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Originally Posted by NightHour

> YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role


I guess those DPS who do single target damage in AOE pulls are griefing too.

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I mean... yeah, basically.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

> YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role


I guess those DPS who do single target damage in AOE pulls are griefing too.

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Yes, if you are knowingly playing bad with the intention of slowing Down the run, you are griefing

This is a discussion, I guess. I think if I had enough run-ins with malicious tanks to warrant frustration, I'd probably just be the tank myself.

You pull it you tank it

YPYT depends on the dungeon.

If I'm in Dzameal on the first pull after the first boss I will let an over-pulling dps die to the frog pull. They hit ridiculously hard and impatience there will cause a wipe. Without invuln (or even with it) too many mobs there are fatal. We just don't have enough mitigation and heals unless the entire party is on point.

For most other dungeons i don't really care. If a DPS knows thier salt they can survive a long time and apply slow with arm's length (or pop RpR crest). If I'm running ahead on NIN or RPR I'm not expecting to get stuff pulled off me for a bit, and if I bite off more than I dan chew its on my head.

Generally I run with my SO with one of us tanking anyway, so we just tell each-other when we're doing a DPS pull and adjust accordingly. He legit loves that U make hia job easier with my cooldowns and health bar both.

A dps pulling for a tank is kind of harassement. Its saying to the tank "you suck, you cant do your job, let me do your job for you"
Polite communication is key here.

I don't know if it's been said already in this thread but it's also not helpful for say, a ranged dps to hit mobs before a tank has threat. If I've hit sprint and am trying to gather mobs for w2w, a dps behind me hitting them before I drop an aoe on them means they are running the wrong way and I have to run back and get threat before I can pull more. And now my sprint has run out and the pull is a much bigger pain in the ass.

you dont have to go back. use your ranged attack or just finish the pull. the one having aggro will come to you... or he will kearn to sooner or later

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

A dps pulling for a tank is kind of harassement. Its saying to the tank "you suck, you cant do your job, let me do your job for you"
Polite communication is key here.

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Reacting to perceived toxic behavior with more toxic behavior doesn't end well. Personally, the latter is worse. If someone simply hasn't learned more efficient ways of playing their job, maybe they don't know any better. But acting like an a** and making it worse was a choice made by the other player.

I had an example from a few patches ago. First time I ran Court of Troia I got doomed by the 2nd boss. I recognized the eyeball mechanic but didn't rotate my character away from the 2nd set of eyeballs. I got doomed, noticed it. Asked for an esuna. Healer let me die. So my actions were "n00bing it up." I didn't get on the healer's case for not Esuna-ing me. However, after the boss died, the healer offered up "You can't cure stupid."

This was Day 1 of new content. People are going to make mistakes. So while maybe I was "toxic" in his eyes by getting greedy and trying to get in an extra hit, he choose to clearly be toxic by refusing to Esuna me and then refusing to heal during the next trash pulls. The latter is worse.

Most of these problems can be resolved by communicating. I know, wild idea to actually say something other than "hi" or " o/ " in duty finder. Of course, there will always be those "you don't pay my sub" type people. Can't do anything about them.

As a tank, I would be annoyed at myself for letting a DPS or healer run ahead of me during a pull. That being said if you pull ahead of the tank, at least have the decency to move the mobs into the tank's AoE. That's all I ask. If I have to chase you around, I probably won't.

As someone who tanks dungeons on the regular, I personally like it when someone with movement skills runs ahead and groups the mobs together for me. I don't consider it the tank's job to pull at all.

If I do the pulling as tank, I usually have to charge in, or in low level dungeons, facepull and hope they group up near me in order to hit them all with 1 gcd. Otherwise I'm looking at at least 2 gcds to get them all on me, and on packs that are more spread out, 1 healer hot tick at the wrong time can mean the mobs I missed go running off on their own. It's not the biggest deal, but it does slow you down, especially if you are chain pulling.

If someone else runs ahead and groups them all together for me, I can just slap them with 1 gcd on my way through without stopping.

That said, it IS annoying if someone BEHIND the tank hits the mobs before me. That sets 1 mob to running in the wrong direction, usually completely apart from the rest of the pack. That will slow you wayyy down on a wall to wall pull, and is very annoying.

They change how enmity works in ShB so that tanks can pull them easier, so yeah, tank is a puller role

First of all, communicate with your party. Easy and simple.

2nd, Tank/healer should control the pace. Maybe tank can't handed a group because of their skill, equipment, etc.
Same with healer. Maybe that can't heal a big pull cause of skill, equipment, etc.

And since you can't do a dungeon without them they should more or less control the pace.

I understand it's your daily and you want to do it as fast as possible so you can go about your day. But you should respect other people if they do not want to or unable to do the normal and do wall to wall pulls. Not everyone is at your skill level, equipment level or even have the internet, screen restate to handle big pulls.

4th, if a tank is really turning off tank stance cause a non-tanked pull. And it's causing people to die and wipe. Yeah, thats toxic. Report/block them.

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Originally Posted by kevin_satron

They change how enmity works in ShB so that tanks can pull them easier, so yeah, tank is a puller role

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Almost there, but not quite. Anyone can pull and thanks to the enmity changes in ShB. The tank can easily grab everything off of whoever pulled with a single AoE or two.

At the end of the day, everyone controls the pace (not just the healer and especially not the tank). The tank holds hate and mitigates, the healer heals the tank when necessary (otherwise DPS until then) and DPS make sure things die ASAP so the tanks and healers will still have resources for the next pull.

Reason why I say "and especially not the tank" is because you can do the dungeons without them if you pull packs one at a time (tanking is also the easiest role to play in FFXIV now that you don't have to juggle between DPS and Tank stance).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Reason why I say "and especially not the tank" is because you can do the dungeons without them if you pull packs one at a time (tanking is also the easiest role to play in FFXIV now that you don't have to juggle between DPS and Tank stance).

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Basically the biggest counter against the tanks insisting on single pulls in max level dungeons, your contribution is so minimal that a dps can do your job and we would probably get through this dungeon faster as well.

I think its a bit of a context rules kind of situation.

In general a non-tank pulling by accident the Tank should grab them. But if they are frequently doing it, to force a tank or heal to do more then they are comfortable with, then thats griefing.

End of the day, its about balance and no one has the right to force a singlular pacce on the rest of the party. If DPS dont like the pace. Well they can leave the option is up to them.

Obviosuly the reverse is also true. A tank refusing to tank because of a single accidental pull then thats griefing too.

Bottom line is there is no hard written rule about it either way, so you can either communicte and come to a decision or you can be petty about it.

Most duties are only 20-30 minutes anyway so if you dont have time for it when you queue, then thats on you. Either way i wish people would just accept it happens and move on after it does.

You are never going to get the player base to 100% conform to your way of thinking

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

You are never going to get the player base to 100% conform to your way of thinking

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It confuses that people expect this. For better or worse it doesn’t really matter how ‘objectively better’ one thing or the other is, there’s always going to be a small percentage of people who just don’t care and do what they want lol. Which is exactly why it’s better to discuss it with the party as/when it happens rather than complain on the forums about it

I could care less if you pull or w/e, I'm speed running wall to wall so it'll come back to me either way.

Old thread lol
Meh I could care less if anyone else pull BUT you better be running to the wall on top of tank because I'm not f*&ig chasing you.

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Old thread lol
Meh I could care less if anyone else pull BUT you better be running to the wall on top of tank because I'm not f*&ig chasing you.

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Best answer.

IMHO. You pull it.... To the tank. Everyone with enmity... Hate... Aggro... Run to the mother loving tank with it.

On the note of pacing, to anyone reading this. You can only be as good as your weakest player. Keep that in mind or just abandon the group.

all i'm saying is: if you believe ypyt is griefing, and you intentionally pull to stress the tank out with threat of reporting them, then its you who is greifing, be an adult and ask them to pull more or ask whey they are not pulling so much.. dont be that terminally online edgelord that has to prove a point to someone just trying to relax.

you are playing with people not your action figures.