We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

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Originally Posted by Bukachu

I mean, that's literally my point bozo, stop barking at me.

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"Hey man, I'm only pretending to make a point after I got backlash from being a toxic rat that isn't even max level"

Idk about y'all but I didn't learn all that much about rotations/weaves/proper ogcds/ect until I hit ShB. Anything at SB and below, it never really mattered, you can play a bit suboptimally and still breeze through the content. I'd be willing to wager that most people have simply.. played the game without really *learning* the game, so even onto higher levels they think they're doing fine. I certainly did. All I knew was W2W and hitting my mits = good run, didn't think about rotation or other proper etiquette.

People refusing to do essential actions is a whole other matter, that is just people BMing the others lol

Honestly i think this all stems from players needing to be willing to communicate when doing group content more so then player ability. Now going off what you said i doesnt seem like the communication ball was dropped by you because if you as the healer said you were having a hard time keeping him alive he should have been open to what can be done to make it work. Personally whenever i have tanked in groups i tend to do lighter pulls unless the healer says i can pull more so as not to stress them. When i heal normally sink or swim sometimes i work harder then other times.

Kupo, in normal dungeons you could spam one button (please don't lol) and still do fine. It might add a minute tops to your fight but *shrug* what is the rush? kupo <3

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Originally Posted by xenahawk

Honestly i think this all stems from players needing to be willing to communicate when doing group content more so then player ability. Now going off what you said i doesnt seem like the communication ball was dropped by you because if you as the healer said you were having a hard time keeping him alive he should have been open to what can be done to make it work. Personally whenever i have tanked in groups i tend to do lighter pulls unless the healer says i can pull more so as not to stress them. When i heal normally sink or swim sometimes i work harder then other times.

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The issue is that most players either ignore player communication or refute it. I had a very similar experience as a healer with a tank that wanted to pull a bit big but kept popping it at 10% which lead to it being useless. It was only after 5 deaths that he began to actually listen despite me framing it as "hey it's really difficult to heal you since you are not using mit at right time. I can do the big pulls but you need to keep 1 defensive up at all times until more of the mobs die". Why not just take the advice the first time it is mentioned. I learned how to tank and mit properly precisely because another player told me about how to mit properly and I promptly decided to follow their advice.

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Originally Posted by Doc_Seraph

Kupo, in normal dungeons you could spam one button (please don't lol) and still do fine. It might add a minute tops to your fight but *shrug* what is the rush? kupo <3

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It definitely adds more than one minute, especially in the later dungeons. At the same token, if you can go faster, why not? The way I see it is that if I play my absolute heart out on any role, it not only shortens the time in the dungeon/duty, but it also gives my fellow teammates and me more time in their day to do other fun things this game has to offer or get off the game earlier in the day so they can enjoy their life.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

It definitely adds more than one minute, especially in the later dungeons. At the same token, if you can go faster, why not?

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Grain of salt and I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are people in this world who don't do anything in a hurry. Trust me most days on my way home from work I end up behind them.

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Originally Posted by xenahawk

Honestly i think this all stems from players needing to be willing to communicate when doing group content more so then player ability. Now going off what you said i doesnt seem like the communication ball was dropped by you because if you as the healer said you were having a hard time keeping him alive he should have been open to what can be done to make it work. Personally whenever i have tanked in groups i tend to do lighter pulls unless the healer says i can pull more so as not to stress them. When i heal normally sink or swim sometimes i work harder then other times.

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Bigger issue is we can't communicate. If you comment dps feels a little low and ask if anyone's having any trouble, no matter how nice you are you'll get a lot of dismissive and whiny responses. Some even threaten to report or try to insinuate you're parsing in an effort to get you banned.

Players can't communicate and it's because of SE's draconian parsing policy. Then you add on the hyper-toxic player base of xiv and how they'll bend over backwards to excuse people doing as little as possible and you have the current state of EX duty finder.

you can't even filter by ilevel during odd patches because its so easy to max ilevel with welfare upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Grain of salt and I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are people in this world who don't do anything in a hurry. Trust me most days on my way home from work I end up behind them.

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Oh no doubt, which is why there needs to be a system that provides information that motivates a player to play better. Clearly, communication does not work, nor does just finishing a dungeon faster. Again a tiny extra reward provided via good play would go a long way to improve the overall skill cap of the player base AND by extension would make players going through the MSQ have a more enjoyable time since knowing that you are cranking your damage melds well with some of the awesome set pieces in fights. I had a lot of cool MSQ moments ruined because players sandbagged hard, taking me out of the story and focusing on player's mistakes. Zodiark and Endsinger stand out to me as being frustrating moments because I was able to grasp what needed to be done yet the majority of my team didn't, requiring multiple attempts until I could get back to the MSQ.

Honestly why are people this terrified of "bads" in Roulettes. I've had my fair share, heck I've even been the baddie myself in dungeons I wasn't familiar enough with. Shared a bunch of those stories in the Duty Finder thread. I'm really not saying that deliberately trolling or non-trying attitudes should be encouraged, but more like attempting to create this weird segregated hierarchy with MMRs and whatever is foolish AF. Snore through those extra 10 minutes, eat the penalty and just AFK for a bit, or nudge with some advice. Trying to run away from people who don't meet your standards as if they're the plague is silly.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Honestly why are people this terrified of "bads" in Roulettes. I've had my fair share, heck I've even been the baddie myself in dungeons I wasn't familiar enough with. Shared a bunch of those stories in the Duty Finder thread. I'm really not saying that deliberately trolling or non-trying attitudes should be encouraged, but more like attempting to create this weird segregated hierarchy with MMRs and whatever is foolish AF. Snore through those extra 10 minutes, eat the penalty and just AFK for a bit, or nudge with some advice. Trying to run away from people who don't meet your standards as if they're the plague is silly.

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seems to be mostly they consider it a waste of their time to add a couple minutes to a run. they have ALWAYS been perfect apparently

do I enjoy carrying "bads", of course not. never have. but I realize they are going to happen and dont stay awake nights thinking about it like some obviously do.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

It definitely adds more than one minute, especially in the later dungeons. At the same token, if you can go faster, why not? The way I see it is that if I play my absolute heart out on any role, it not only shortens the time in the dungeon/duty, but it also gives my fellow teammates and me more time in their day to do other fun things this game has to offer or get off the game earlier in the day so they can enjoy their life.

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Agreed fully kupo <3 im just saying nobody should really get 'stressed' over it kupo <3 but yes I agree faster is fun ^_^

I wonder if this is the same tank I had for the same dungeon that wouldn't put his tank stance on. I was a healer for that dungeon and got pulled in cause I guess the last healer quit the team when they were at the final boss. I thought "Sweet! I got a quick roulette"

I WAS WRONG

I noticed something was wrong but not immediately when I straight up died within a minute. I don't remember raidwides on that boss taking 80% of my health... ( I find out later it's cause a raid wide followed by an auto attack just hammering me )

Anyway I chalked it up that I did something wrong and apologized.

So round two...I'm dying...again. Then I noticed it...Tank has no stance and I am top aggro.

So now I'm extra healing to stay alive while trying to let the tank know stance was off.

die again...vote to abandon happens. I say no because I let the tank know so if they switch it on...we fine. Nah. Vote passes and we are all kicked...at the last boss.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Honestly why are people this terrified of "bads" in Roulettes. I've had my fair share, heck I've even been the baddie myself in dungeons I wasn't familiar enough with. Shared a bunch of those stories in the Duty Finder thread. I'm really not saying that deliberately trolling or non-trying attitudes should be encouraged, but more like attempting to create this weird segregated hierarchy with MMRs and whatever is foolish AF. Snore through those extra 10 minutes, eat the penalty and just AFK for a bit, or nudge with some advice. Trying to run away from people who don't meet your standards as if they're the plague is silly.

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Seems like a dumb game design then if the option is to quit rather than the player base be provided basic resources or understanding if you are the off tank to turn on your stance like 15-20 seconds into the fight in case the main tank dies and doesn't immediately start killing DPS and healers or to provoke a boss after you died since your threat reset.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

seems to be mostly they consider it a waste of their time to add a couple minutes to a run. they have ALWAYS been perfect apparently

do I enjoy carrying "bads", of course not. never have. but I realize they are going to happen and dont stay awake nights thinking about it like some obviously do.

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I mean I don't expect everybody to be cranking but when I do a dungeon on average within 14 minutes as a dps then play my tank and it suddenly takes 20 minutes with a group of non-sprouts and non-new players, its kinda sucks ass.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

This is absolutely true. I can count on one hand the number of times I've tanked an 80+ dungeon even though I've been level 90 on PLD for months and do roulettes almost daily. The game thinks that just because I've done them all on a different role (DPS) it means I know what I'm doing when going in as a tank. I once got tossed into the late-game dungeon in Radz, can't recall the name, and had a horrific time tanking; especially the last boss. I did what I could but felt horrible for the group and was extremely embarrassed because I was projecting the attitude of the OP and many others here onto the party members, thinking they must be feeling what the OP's expressed. The worst thing is I couldn't do anything but put my shield up, move forward, do what I could, and hope I didn't get kicked.

People automatically assume just because I'm level 90 and don't trip the "New Player" thing, that I've been tanking higher-level stuff forever, know every mechanic in and out, and know exactly when and where to use each skill for optimal effect. I'd love for there to be a requirement to directly queue and complete each dungeon separately on each role before adding it to the roulette for that role. At least I'd be able to say "This is my first time here" or "I'm inexperienced" without people thinking I'm trolling them.


OP- You said earlier that you had to use all your healing kit to keep that guy alive. I have to ask, why are you upset that you had to heal when you queued as a healer? Why did you find that boring? From what I can tell, most people think healing's tedious and boring as it is now, yet you actually had to engage in healing this run. Wouldn't that be a good thing as opposed to spamming a DPS skill and tossing an occasional heal?

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OP isn't complaining about need to put any heals on the tank. OP is saying that he/she shouldn't have to babysit a tank at a point where he or she should know their toolkit which is a very different thing. Mind you, some healers *would* get an adrenaline rush from that, just as some healers would also get a rush from asking a tank to take off half their gear, or themselves as well just so they'd get more of a healing challenge however I'd expect that applies more to experienced healers, and also that's between friends, not in a PUG.

However many healers would find it more fun to both heal and DPS in a dungeon, in that way a W2W pull can still be interesting and engaging for many healers especially as they level.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

The thing is that that SE could calculate DPS in a run, true healing done (not overhealing), overhealing, damage taken, damage mitigated themselves, and time completed. They could take all of that information, compare it other players internally, give you ranking WITHOUT assigning a percentile rank or showing the player the actual number of DPS/True HPS/Overhealing/Damage Mit/Damage Taken which is fundamentally what logs are giving you when you look at somebody's parse in a fight.

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Where do you get the idea that SE actually records this data for every single dungeon or raid instance for every single player for analysis? The data you see from third party parsers is externally recorded by a non-supported parser and manually uploaded to a non-supported website for analysis. The game itself will not support parsers, so why would they deliberately add an under-the-covers one in?

Forget personal 'rankings' reported 'only to the player'. The answer from the game's Producer is an indirect, but polite form of "No" in Japanese. That ship sailed 10 years ago, and the call and response for something like that is a semi-annual event.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Honestly why are people this terrified of "bads" in Roulettes. I've had my fair share, heck I've even been the baddie myself in dungeons I wasn't familiar enough with. Shared a bunch of those stories in the Duty Finder thread. I'm really not saying that deliberately trolling or non-trying attitudes should be encouraged, but more like attempting to create this weird segregated hierarchy with MMRs and whatever is foolish AF. Snore through those extra 10 minutes, eat the penalty and just AFK for a bit, or nudge with some advice. Trying to run away from people who don't meet your standards as if they're the plague is silly.

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I honestly don't care much. Warrior can compensate for bads in 4 man casual content since you can basically heal yourself and often do top dps anyway, as even good dps sometimes don't have much aoe kit. Whereas a dps that plays with bad tank and healer doesn't have much control. And a healer that plays with bads is die of stress by the first boss.

Never gonna happen as long as jump pots exist. Its always gonna be sprouts first dungeons, nevermind the fact its level 200 savage raid ilvl i dunno 2,000.

I wish this game was able to more regularly enforce skill checks in the way of Ivalice-level difficulty on the playerbase. The things that I still regularly happening at max level doesn't fill me with confidence for the depth of normal gameplay moving forward. Just because someone isn't stepping into EX or Savage doesn't mean they want minimal difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I remember tanking Sastasha in 2013.
1st dungeon Tanking and even said so and I was bad..
My group was so mean to me, so I learned to get good real fast xD
I'm not even looking at how people play anymore..
If I do I would be annoyed constantly, like why is that WHM Glaring when the Tank pulled 10 mobs etc

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It helps to turn off party battle effects so you can just focus on yourself and enemies.

Don't turn them off all the way though. You need to see those healer circles and doton. :p

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I wish this game was able to more regularly enforce skill checks in the way of Ivalice-level difficulty on the playerbase. The things that I still regularly happening at max level doesn't fill me with confidence for the depth of normal gameplay moving forward. Just because someone isn't stepping into EX or Savage doesn't mean they want minimal difficulty.

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Thats one gripe I have with the game. Regular content is mouth drool easy, and then you Savage or even Extreme where you can't reasonably expect to clear with randoms. The game needs some dungeons that require more skill than normal, but not such high skill that duty roulette can't do it. Maybe it's too late now, but we need content that encourages at least somewhat better play. With normal content the way it is, and being able to afk clear there is no reason or incentive to get any better if you never plan on going in to savage.

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Originally Posted by Stanazolol

Thats one gripe I have with the game. Regular content is mouth drool easy, and then you Savage or even Extreme where you can't reasonably expect to clear with randoms. The game needs some dungeons that require more skill than normal, but not such high skill that duty roulette can't do it. Maybe it's too late now, but we need content that encourages at least somewhat better play. With normal content the way it is, and being able to afk clear there is no reason or incentive to get any better if you never plan on going in to savage.

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Well... Hopefully Criterion/Variant Dungeons will fill that gap, everything sounds great but most things that just sound great never pulls through.

So heres to hoping.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Well... Hopefully Criterion/Variant Dungeons will fill that gap, everything sounds great but most things that just sound great never pulls through.

So heres to hoping.

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To me variant/criterion dungeons seem like they are going to have the same problem, variant will just be more repeatable content for very casual play when you are sick of the expert roulette and then criterion will fall between extreme and savage

We really need more BA esque content because that’s where the difficulty seems to work best

I have zero expectations of everyone. My life is much more peaceful that way. If you don't like the people you find in duty finder then form your own group with people that meet your desires. Don't expect anything. Nobody is in a position to judge others.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I have zero expectations of everyone. My life is much more peaceful that way. If you don't like the people you find in duty finder then form your own group with people that meet your desires. Don't expect anything. Nobody is in a position to judge others.

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How about if you can’t meet the most basic expectations of the way the game is designed to be played you okay with trusts rather than drag down three unwitting other players

It shouldn’t be up to competent players to self sort themselves into competent parties when this game can be played at an adequate level by a 5 year old

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I have zero expectations of everyone. My life is much more peaceful that way. If you don't like the people you find in duty finder then form your own group with people that meet your desires. Don't expect anything. Nobody is in a position to judge others.

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So it is fine for you that other Players waste your time cause they are to lazy to check Boss Mechanics or even their own Skills and what they do? I was 5 Minutes ago in Alexander - The Heart of the Creator as Healer, the second Healer Level 90, has not even known how to Rezz or what to do in that Level 60 Raid, in the End we wiped 3 times before I left.

I am every single Day in Raids, Trials, Alliance and Frontline and I see a lot Leechers, who do nothing and get Rewarded for that. God forbid if you dare to say please kick Player XYZ cause he is afk or does nothing. Then you get a Shitstorm of the Year.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I wish this game was able to more regularly enforce skill checks in the way of Ivalice-level difficulty on the playerbase. The things that I still regularly happening at max level doesn't fill me with confidence for the depth of normal gameplay moving forward. Just because someone isn't stepping into EX or Savage doesn't mean they want minimal difficulty.

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I think you misunderstand why those raids were "hard".

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

So it is fine for you that other Players waste your time cause they are to lazy to check Boss Mechanics or even their own Skills and what they do? I was 5 Minutes ago in Alexander - The Heart of the Creator as Healer, the second Healer Level 90, has not even known how to Rezz or what to do in that Level 60 Raid, in the End we wiped 3 times before I left.

I am every single Day in Raids, Trials, Alliance and Frontline and I see a lot Leechers, who do nothing and get Rewarded for that. God forbid if you dare to say please kick Player XYZ cause he is afk or does nothing. Then you get a Shitstorm of the Year.

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That's why you don't say anything, you just start the vote kick. A bad healer is VERY noticeable, by everybody.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How about if you can’t meet the most basic expectations of the way the game is designed to be played you okay with trusts rather than drag down three unwitting other players

It shouldn’t be up to competent players to self sort themselves into competent parties when this game can be played at an adequate level by a 5 year old

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First, lay off the toxic elitist bs. Second, the game is designed for people of various skill levels and experience to be playing together. The entire point of the roulette system is to encourage more experienced players to join activities that newer players are still progressing thru for the first time. That's the way the game is designed. How about if you can't meet that basic expectation, you play with trusts rather than drag down three unwitting players with your toxicity?

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So it is fine for you that other Players waste your time cause they are to lazy to check Boss Mechanics or even their own Skills and what they do? I was 5 Minutes ago in Alexander - The Heart of the Creator as Healer, the second Healer Level 90, has not even known how to Rezz or what to do in that Level 60 Raid, in the End we wiped 3 times before I left.

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Actually, it's expected and encouraged that players go in "blind" when they do a new dungeon or raid for the first time so they don't accidentally have the story spoiled in the process of looking up a guide or watching a video.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That's why you don't say anything, you just start the vote kick. A bad healer is VERY noticeable, by everybody.

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90% of the time it gets ignored. After all, if everyone knew and wanted to remove them, why would anyone complain that you mention it? No, they complain because they don't want them removed and don't want anyone to draw attention to it.

I'll let you attempt to deduce why that is the case.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

90% of the time it gets ignored. After all, if everyone knew and wanted to remove them, why would anyone complain that you mention it? No, they complain because they don't want them removed and don't want anyone to draw attention to it.

I'll let you attempt to deduce why that is the case.

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I don't see it get ignored most of the time, I see the vote kick go through.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

First, lay off the toxic elitist bs. Second, the game is designed for people of various skill levels and experience to be playing together. The entire point of the roulette system is to encourage more experienced players to join activities that newer players are still progressing thru for the first time. That's the way the game is designed. How about if you can't meet that basic expectation, you play with trusts rather than drag down three unwitting players with your toxicity?



Actually, it's expected and encouraged that players go in "blind" when they do a new dungeon or raid for the first time so they don't accidentally have the story spoiled in the process of looking up a guide or watching a video.

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Knowing how to play this game at a level beyond spamming Iron Jaws or Blizzard 3, using AOEs in packs of enemies, doing more than spamming Medica 2, is "toxic elitist BS"

Only in the bubble wrapped FFXIV community do you see these takes, folks.

The game right now its designed around pressing forward +mark target+ press 1,2,3 and dodge the occasional AOE, and yet people who put 200 hours in this game fails at doing so.

At level 60 the player needs baseline knowledge :
Gathering markers (line, single hit or multi hit),
Esuna (Healer)
tankbuster (cleave, single target, shared, AOE etc.)
mitigation(dps,tanks and healer)
AOE combos from bosses and how to dodge these,
Basic Rotation (when to AOE and when single target) and how the job works (Bard - Songs, Dancer - dances and partner etc)

If all of them or many of them are missing then yes the player is in the wrong and should play with trust or train. This is normal and nothing special and NOT HARD and it is not toxcic.

Also calling somebody toxcic/elitist for an opinion is not an argument it is an attack of the lowest level. If you want taken seriously stop doing that.
If you disagree -fine but calling names and say "oh you are this and that" is really not the way to discuss.

Also "going blind" was NEVER THE TOPIC. To the list of was NEVER THE TOPIC also belongs: playing on savage level/beeing the gamer god/etc. , beeing mean or disrespectfull, exclude payers or gate players

When you are going in the lvl 80 or 90 trial (normal) i expect the simple knowledge of the players, if your going at extreme i expect more but some players just dont want to learn or improve (still, this is not about a guide or not going blind). With basic competence i can simple tell you "it is multi hit gathering marker" and a normal player will remember this from lvl 60, 70 and so on. So i ak twice after that it is "kick" or "leave".

And something that annoys me to no end: At level 60 or above nobody is completly new in the sense of "he played only for a short amount time give him time". If you are not to be able to play at dungeon level (60 and above) you have no buisness in said dungeon.

I like how people act as if everybody expecting an extreme/savage performance from random folks. How do you perform such mental gymnastics for 4837598th times and not get tired from it…?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I like how people act as if everybody expecting an extreme/savage performance from random folks. How do you perform such mental gymnastics for 4837598th times and not get tired from it…?

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With how bad the game even explains how to play the damn game without looking at a dozen resource guides, yeah I wonder why casual players have a worse time actually performing their role :I This game literally makes you think you're doing a good job at playing your role until you actually need to know it somewhat in ShB. And even then, you don't really need to.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

With how bad the game even explains how to play the damn game without looking at a dozen resource guides, yeah I wonder why casual players have a worse time actually performing their role :I This game literally makes you think you're doing a good job at playing your role until you actually need to know it somewhat in ShB. And even then, you don't really need to.

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Some of the duties say otherwise, especially considering how many people were actually failing the Cape Westwind instance because they didn't realize they needed better gear.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

With how bad the game even explains how to play the damn game without looking at a dozen resource guides, yeah I wonder why casual players have a worse time actually performing their role :I This game literally makes you think you're doing a good job at playing your role until you actually need to know it somewhat in ShB. And even then, you don't really need to.

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I mean reading your tooltips tells you what to do, sure a few classes like MNK can be a bit confusing to do when you read the skills at level 1 but this thread is not discussing accidentally doing celestial revolution twice because you don’t understand beast chakra, it’s absolute bare basic things like thinking cure 1 spam is a valid playstyle, or not AOE’ing on a DPS or a tank not using damage reduction skills