"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

Yeah, they are just fully making up stuff at this point and pinning a "bruised ego" on the tank when in reality it's just "I want to do what I want and how dare you say otherwise".

Can't really talk to someone who isn't objective. The moment they break into perceived efficiencies outside a static setting, it's a joke lol.

Edit: Reached my daily limit!
Can't sit on the forums all day and the one fun person stopped responding to me. So good luck trying to compel a playstyle out there!

If you get me in a dungeon, let's have some fun! <3

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Wait crap was I the one fun person? I'm sorry, I was eating a taco!

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...68907974_5.png

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

Yes and that's the problem. Tanking is exceptionally easy once you get it. But it does have a learning curve to get used to.

Inconsiderate players like you, thinking everyone is the same and learns at the same pace is the reason for the TOS update in the first place lol. Honestly, I'm glad the GMs and devs care, even when a selfish minority of players don't.

Just try to remember to be kind to people, you have no clue what it's like for them.

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You're making a lot of very silly assumptions about me, considering I spend the absolute majority of my time on FF teaching the game to other players. You're endorsing actual, genuine griefing that extends harm beyond not just the person you feel has slighted you, but to the rest of the party as well. I promise you are significantly more likely to receive a GM visit than I ever will be.

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

Just try to remember to be kind to people, you have no clue what it's like for them.

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This is also really amusing to read coming from someone who has been so hostile and abrasive towards virtually everyone they've talked to in this thread, while endorsing griefing. In fact, if I were to play the silly assumption game, I'd assume that you're in an FC that's stacked with your own alts because other people probably find you difficult.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

So, you admit that you find loopholes to avoid getting in trouble (ie. just not admitting it in chat) while going on and on about how you respect and follow the ToS and how important they are. If you can't admit you did it in chat, it's because you know it's a bannable offense. But don't worry, you follow the ToS. Those mental gymnastics, though.

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It doesn't matter whether they admit it or not or how people go about getting things accomplished. At the end of the day if people want to spread hatred and intolerance they will become lawyers to justify and rationalize any behavior they want.

The only thing that really matters is that players should strive to be intrinsically good people with empathy for others. Because the level of empathy and patience varies some circumstances are unavoidable but the majority can be peaceful. The real enemy here is people wanting to get something done a very specific way and willing to ignore everyone else. If this turns into an issue they will use whatever rhetoric they can to destroy the opposing side.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

It may not be griefing, but this behavior comes from a place of annoyance at the perceived pace of the dungeon. I highly doubt this all started because one DPS said let me try to optimize the party and make the tank's job easier. This started from a place of annoyance of pace, then got a bunch of people onboard via echo chamber.

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I'll speak from my experience since I legit tanked every dungeon in the MSQ, I didn't properly learn how to w2w until like maybe like late SB and struggled with it still when I was on ShB, I can't really recall a time where dps/healer were annoyed and omega pulling ahead of me, I explained that I was still a noob at tanking & they understood fine and some gave some good advice I follow to this day lol. there were times when either the dps or I took too much for me to handle and we wiped, but at the end of the day it's just a learning experience. just relax, say something if you need to go slower than w2w, and let the party do its thing. at the end of the day you're the one in control anyways. the more u relax on it the more tankxiety goes away I tend to find (although I still get it on p3n lmao).

now that I finally bothered to learn dps and watch other tanks, i feel it's just tankxiety and being afraid of big pulls, but u gotta learn someday tbh. at least for me I just force myself to remember to wait on the tank, it's easy to see when the tank is a newer player so I just go w/ the flow

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Therefore, if you want a slower pace for whatever reason, the onus is on you to say something because you're the one harboring different expectations.

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Would you make up your mind? You JUST faulted the Sage in my example for doing exactly this.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Actually the mistake the tank made here was being rude. The way to turn this around and get the people pulling for you banned is to change the words from "you pull, you tank" to "I'm still practicing this job and need to go slower, sorry". Any other comment they make pressuring you to go faster can be answered by "no thank you, still practicing" and DPS dying because the tank didnt grab aggro can simple be attributed to the tank getting used to his job with written evidence of the tank being polite.

Since the GMs only have the chat log and the reports all you have to do is go to the support desk and report them for kicking and this will turn into them getting banned for imposing a playstyle. It doesn't matter if you are new to the game or not and it's a polite and otherwise unprovable statement so there's actually little the DPS or anyone else in the party can do without being toxic and breaking TOS.

So really, all you need to do is be silent, keep those keywords in mind if they harass you and move on.

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I understand what you are saying, but I do want to make a correction. You can't be banned for kicking someone. Difference of playstyle is a 100% legitimate reason for kicking and you cannot get in trouble for it.

There is a difference between telling a level 15 tank to pull more in Satasha and getting mad at them when they don't, and asking a tank to pull more at level 70+ and they won't. You can't claim tankxiety at high levels. And if tanking makes you that scared, don't tank higher level content. I don't think that is unfair to ask.

I know I have been accused of being a pulling DPS, but honestly, I don't. I will start running toward the second group, jump a few times. If they don't move, I sigh and start attacking the mobs they pulled. I don't even say anything in chat. But if you decide to single target, adamantly refusing to pick up mobs, verbal admittance or not, because you are under the mindset of "you pull, you tank", you are the toxic one. End of story.

This is a team game. Once you start working against your team, you are making it difficult for everyone else. Refuse to tank, let a dps pay the price for ruffling your feathers, your party is now at less than 75% and your healers focus is split. Instead of communicating, you threw a tantrum and acted like an entitled child.

A team is more than working as a unit, but communicating when necessary. Switching to single target is not team play. Letting a member die because you decided to be hostile is not team play.

Wall to wall is also the meta. Most peoples runs are wall to wall. They have come to expect it. If you can’t handle it for whatever reason, maybe state that before the walls drop in a duty. Or, maybe learn to better your play style. Become more efficient. Meta; most efficient tactics available. Become efficient. Stop holding yourself back and in turn, keeping the party down

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Would you make up your mind? You JUST faulted the Sage in my example for doing exactly this.

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No I didn't? I said the Sage in your example essentially has a win/win scenario. If they can't handle the pull size when a DPS dragsin extra, they can blame them since they asked beforehand. If they can handle it, then they've just learned they're more capable than they thought.

As for being blamed. Ignore them. Who cares? I've been blamed for several wipes that weren't my fault. I could care less if someone thinks otherwise. Now if they can point to a problem or a mistake I made, I'm all ears. If they want to blame me cause say, they ran around the arena like a headless chicken or were a Bard out in Narnia that somehow missed Assize. I'll tell them why they died and how to do not do that.

So funny story about an expert roulette I had. My wife and I run as tank/dps pair most of the time, and if we're clearing packs fast enough, we'll start staggering our sprints so that she can run ahead of me and pull packs while my sprint is still cooling down. Works pretty well, makes dungeons go by super fast.

We're doing that in Stigmascape, making incredibly good pace and - when suddenly the red mage pipes up with "stop pulling ahead and let the tank pull". And I'm like, "nah it's fine, it's faster this way" then the healer - a mutual friend also says it's fine.

And in response? the red mage leaves the dungeon right before the final boss. Absolutely baffled by some players in this game.

Well, this is good reading material.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Well, this is good reading material.

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You love it
I do too.

This is why I only either queue with friends or as tank when I do dungeons. As a warrior I literally don’t need the other 3 players for any content past 56 but it def speeds things up.

But I generally avoid dungeons in general and just hunt A/S ranks for tomestones.

The best way to avoid people you don’t like to play with is to simply never interact with them.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Well, this is good reading material.

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OP was like:

https://i.imgur.com/O8TQ44g.gif

Don't pull. Issue done. /end

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

skiros is this the only way you can get people to talk to you

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I like talking to random people on the Internet. My IRL friends can be a bit unexciting... They're wonderful people, but sometimes I need that spice. This forum has that spice. It's exciting!

Don't worry I'll probably be bored soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

https://i.redd.it/7af4tcw75ci81.jpg

Lol, I frankly did not expect this. I was just blurting out my unfiltered thoughts since I saw that one tank meme on a subreddit and I found it funny. I expected some cries of me trolling and a few people disagreeing. But I did not expect people to say things like "I'm a tank, I'm a leader" or for this to reach 20 pages. That "tanking is being a leader" shit was funny and made my day.

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The response to this on Twitter was phenomenal. Herbal essences!

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

It is all down to lack of communication isn’t it.

It is the job for the tank to tank and the tank know how many he/she can handle.

If anyone feel the pull is too small, the first thing should ask the tank and heal if they can do a bigger pull.

There are no norm, it is a party decision.

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When ever I tank I always and always make sure with the healer if they prefer I go big or take chunks never know if someone is new to a raid and are unsure of mechanics not everyone will be on the same page.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

IM the warrior of light, not you ffs what do you dpses and healers not understand about this??

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No, I'm Spartacus.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No I didn't? I said the Sage in your example essentially has a win/win scenario. If they can't handle the pull size when a DPS dragsin extra, they can blame them since they asked beforehand. If they can handle it, then they've just learned they're more capable than they thought.

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You said you didn't understand the logic and are pretty much okaying the dps just pulling anyway even if the healer says something in chat. In your view, they can just be safely ignored because they might learn from it.

But in the tank example, you say the onus is on the tank to say something if they want something different. Implying that you think they shouldn't be ignored.

Why would one role be ignored and the other not? Either both can communicate in chat if they want something different and be respected or neither can.

This kind of telling tanks where they can and can't be new isn't a new thing for you, either. I remember when I was talking about learning tanking basics cause I had leveled for amaro but wanted to get things down. I said I was sticking to baby dungeons so I didn't inflict my inexperience on others. You told me that was just unacceptable because those poor vets in those dungeons just wanted to get their roulettes done.

So that's tanks can be inexperienced in baby dungeons, tanks can't be inexperienced in 71+ content, tanks can't learn big pulls in a live experience in higher level dungeons and should just stick to Trusts for that when Trusts often let you die doing that, tanks can't withhold tanking because the impatient dps can't keep it in their pants a second, 50 dungeons are okay to new tank in because that's where *you* learned, and healers can't ask for smaller pulls because Twelve forbid they want to learn healing at their pace.

Honestly, Forte, in this and other threads I've just gotten the impression you don't think people should be allowed to be new or inexperienced or uncertain if it's ever going to cause a run to go slower than what you personally expect. But that's going to happen because we have a wide range of experience and ability levels and we all get mixed up together when we get randomly matched. The best we can do is be considerate of each other and set our egos and expectations aside for a just a little bit so we can finish a run with people we'll probably never see again.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You said you didn't understand the logic and are pretty much okaying the dps just pulling anyway even if the healer says something in chat. In your view, they can just be safely ignored because they might learn from it.

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This is you inferring something I'm neither saying nor implying. What I said is simply why fuss over a DPS pulling ahead in the specific scenario you outlined where it absolves the healer (or tank) of any responsibility should things go wrong? Never once did I say it wasn't rude of the DPS to pull given the circumstances. So put bluntly, don't put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So that's tanks can be inexperienced in baby dungeons, tanks can't be inexperienced in 71+ content, tanks can't learn big pulls in a live experience in higher level dungeons and should just stick to Trusts for that when Trusts often let you die doing that, tanks can't withhold tanking because the impatient dps can't keep it in their pants a second, 50 dungeons are okay to new tank in because that's where *you* learned, and healers can't ask for smaller pulls because Twelve forbid they want to learn healing at their pace.

Honestly, Forte, in this and other threads I've just gotten the impression you don't think people should be allowed to be new or inexperienced or uncertain if it's ever going to cause a run to go slower than what you personally expect. But that's going to happen because we have a wide range of experience and ability levels and we all get mixed up together when we get randomly matched. The best we can do is be considerate of each other and set our egos and expectations aside for a just a little bit so we can finish a run with people we'll probably never see again.

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Once again this is a complete contradiction to what I've actually been saying and you're merely inferring what you want to believe. I specifically said several times now if you're new or inexperienced to practice at lower level dungeons. Which is the precise opposite of what you're accusing me of now.

And no, you aren't new at 71+. By that point you'll have gone through over 30 mandatory dungeons starting from Sastasha at least once. If you haven't learned how to double pull and rotate CDs during that process it's because you aren't trying. If you're leveling through PotD, HoH, Bozja or unlocked GNB as your first tank, the onus is on you to go into these lower level dungeons and practice. Or! There is this novel feature at level 71 called Trusts. They're specifically designed for players who want to take things slow. When Thancred can handle double pulls and Urianger can deal a whopping 12k in an AoE pull at 89, asking the tanks to double pull and the healers to DPS is effectively asking they keep up with basic AI coding. Don't believe me the Trusts can pull that off? Try it yourself.

now that I finally found it, some of y'all remind me of this particular screenshot:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...g5huf1ab81.png

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Originally Posted by Padudu

IM the warrior of light, not you ffs what do you dpses and healers not understand about this??

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um ackshually youre not the warrior of light, i am!
the scions said so!!!

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

So funny story about an expert roulette I had. My wife and I run as tank/dps pair most of the time, and if we're clearing packs fast enough, we'll start staggering our sprints so that she can run ahead of me and pull packs while my sprint is still cooling down. Works pretty well, makes dungeons go by super fast.

We're doing that in Stigmascape, making incredibly good pace and - when suddenly the red mage pipes up with "stop pulling ahead and let the tank pull". And I'm like, "nah it's fine, it's faster this way" then the healer - a mutual friend also says it's fine.

And in response? the red mage leaves the dungeon right before the final boss. Absolutely baffled by some players in this game.

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This is some strange ego at work. I feel like that rdm tanks a lot, with the idea only tanks no matter what should pull and you two somehow greatly offended his sensibilities.

Makes me wonder if some tanks just play it to rp some kind of commander that must absolutely control all aspects of movement in a dgn.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Padudu

now that I finally found it, some of y'all remind me of this particular screenshot:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...g5huf1ab81.png

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Holy shit...I rest my case loooool.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

now that I finally found it, some of y'all remind me of this particular screenshot:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...g5huf1ab81.png

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This.....this is too much. That ego is mind boggling, I tank a good 95% of the time and I’ve never felt the urge to act like this. That’s wild.

Yes I can playfully let dps sweat a little with pulls but I’d always get the aggro back. It’s not that serious.

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Originally Posted by Ultaniku

This.....this is too much. That ego is mind boggling, I tank a good 95% of the time and I’ve never felt the urge to act like this. That’s wild.

Yes I can playfully let dps sweat a little with pulls but I’d always get the aggro back. It’s not that serious.

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He has to be trolling, I can't imagine someone would seriously think like that lol. It's something I would do if I was feeling goofy.

Edit: Just noticed that he's the one who said LMFAO at the end. Definitely trolling.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

If a DPS or healer pulls in front of you as a tank, refusing to grab aggro and watching them die (or not; sometimes the healer or DPS can survive easily) is just petty. It's basically a temper tantrum. It's an "I gotta teach them a lesson" sorta attitude that is frankly kinda cringe.

That's just my opinion! Tanks shouldn't do this!

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I did this few days ago in dungeon. Second dps and healer were slow to arrive to boss, maybe they wanted to grab chest or something I dunno. Popped veil for healer as the slowpokes suddenly found their sprints and just sprinted in pulling the boss. No veil. No chance for me comfortably pull the boss.

I am sorry if I didn't have patience for bs like that. I really didn't.

Despite stepping out the game eventually forced me to boss fight as it does and only then I took aggro and saw party kill the boss before I willingly took the penalty and left. The trashpulls before bossfight have been so and so, I am 99% I would have died at least once if I didn't have clemency'd my ass both in that boss and at trash.

Honestly no matter how people try to twist it. I just have no patience.

Healers and dps who know to bring trash back to me if they slip are whole different thing. I like you.

I remember at one point I was on heals and the tank told me that I'd have to tank if I pulled, so I did. Apparently WHM is very good at tanking 50/60/70 roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I remember at one point I was on heals and the tank told me that I'd have to tank if I pulled, so I did. Apparently WHM is very good at tanking 50/60/70 roulettes.

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Yup, had this happen many times. Being the tank doesn't give a player an excuse to ego trip and derail a run. It's griefing.

If Thancred can wall to wall, then so can players. I will absolutely pull ahead to nudge a tank along and they'll either get with the program, or I'm leaving. I will not enable tanks who don't know how to do their job properly in level 50+ content. Playing with actual players is supposed to be faster than npcs, not slower.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Yup, had this happen many times. Being the tank doesn't give a player an excuse to ego trip and derail a run. It's griefing.

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I have a feeling people with this issue must come from another, more traditional MMO. I can't imagine anyone who played the game for a couple years would still have the "I'm special" mentality. The multi-class system means most players would have tried out and play all the roles at some point or at least trying them out. And once they did, they would realize none of the role are special, and everyone can do it, at least in casual contents.

In fact, it gets even better in savage content where the difficulty is actually Tank < Healer < DPS. So yeah, tanks with an ego either gotta be new to the game who used to the status privilege from other MMO, or people with privilege issue in general.

When my teammates aren't sprinting, I'm the one that usually runs ahead since I'm a Ninja. I'll either come to a full stop when I'm getting near the adds or I start walking so that the tank goes ahead. I'll never be the one to pull aggro and it is not my job to do so. I always shake my head in disapproval whenever I see a DPS and/or a Healer intentionally doing the Tanks job. I see this more often in Alliances. In 4-mans, in my experience, the tanks always make sure that they're the ones up front.

That's very true, never been a fan of doing that, usually telling the player that's doing it that it's getting annoying stops them a bit, but I am a wall to wall or 3-4 packs in ARR dungeon kind of guy, so it doesn't happen often to me.

BUT, so is running ahead of tank because they aren't to your speed, or refusing to heal someone specifically because that someone said something you didn't like, but it doesn't stop people from doing it.

if you're really into pulling, you just go play tanks

I'll always side with tanks in such situations, even if i'm a dps or a healer.

If I'm a heaer, I will stop healing the dps who does the pulling when I see the tank has no intention of doing big pulls

If I'm a fellow dps, I will only target those enemies targeted by tanks.

As a Tank main, DPS and Healers are free to pull all they like

Just please don't subsequently run off to Narnia, it makes generating snap aggro difficult

Arms Length and Holy are your friends too

DPS and healers pulling that crap is why I stopped pug tanking a LONG time ago.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

DPS and healers pulling that crap is why I stopped pug tanking a LONG time ago.

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On behalf of the pug community, allow me to thank you for stop tanking for us.

Seriously, the less ego centrist players I run into, the better. So if you have that mentality, you're doing god work by just sticking to your niche.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

On behalf of the pug community, allow me to thank you for stop tanking for us.

Seriously, the less ego centrist players I run into, the better. So if you have that mentality, you're doing god work by just sticking to your niche.

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I find dps/ healer who does the pulling without tank fits into description of ego centrist too

Fortunately by 7.0 most story dungeons will have trust compatibility added. If you want to go slow and take your time, they will be an option! Which means if you're single pulling outside of trusts, then that's not going to fly.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I find dps/ healer who does the pulling without tank fits into description of ego centrist too

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First, you edit the word: you used seft-centrist in your original post, not ego-centrist, which is what I use, and there is a difference.

While they are both about self, there is no issue with the former if it conform to the will of the majority. In this context, while each person (except the tank) all selfishly want to go faster, as a whole they form the majority. The tank, however by demanding everyone to conform to his/her own selfishness, and decide to "teach anyone who not obey a lesson by letting them die" is strictly an ego issue, which as a reminder, the whole point of the OP.


Second, to be clear:

- When I don't tank, do I pull even if the tank is slow? No.
- When I tank, do I want it when other people pulled for me? No.

But this is the important bit (or rather, the point)

- When I tank, do I take issue with other people pulling ahead of me? A big fat NO.

The thing I always wall to wall and run ahead the party anyway, the other members can't pull for me even if they try. In almost a decade playing this game, that had happened probably a handful of time that I can remember. And each time I just grab the mobs off them and move, no problemnemo ... not like tanking in this game is hard.

So un-suprisingly, I rarely, if ever has reason to be frustrated at my party behavior. On the other hand, if someone run into issues so often that it 'cause them to swear it off (like the other poster I replied to above) then I think a moment of self-reflection is warranted. And again, ego tend to get in the way of doing that.


If you constantly have a problem with the universe, then the problem is not the universe, it's you. That's pretty much EGO 101.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Yes, but not for the reason you stated.

As a DPS, I'm focusing on dealing as much damage as I can. This also means that I will actively attack the mobs to start building gauge ready for the tank to gather all the mobs and burst them down. I will NOT simply walk beside the tank staring at my screen until he gathers everything. I'm actively AoEing the mobs within my range as the tank is pulling. Yes, sometimes a mob or 2 will slip from the tank. But I'm following the tank and once he gathers all the mobs in one spot, 1-2 AoEs from him and he'll have aggro on all the mobs.

The "Hold your DPs until I gather everything" is not needed. Not in this game because tanks don't have aggro management.