Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

perhaps there is a middle ground between worshipping the ground the devs walk on and demanding yoshidas head on a pike for bad decisions in a video game.....

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yoshi-P: Just don't be a jerk.

The entire internet: Whaaaaa?

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Exactly this.

Yoshi-P: The devs are people, so please treat them like people.

Internet: This is an outrageous standard that will destroy the game and violate my First Amendment rights.

Disappointing, but entirely predictable.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

You are bashing things off feelings and not facts. Show me proof the devs are literally lazy as you claimed! And bozja and eureka are literally content we didn't have before. It's content. It may not be what you WANT but that doesn't mean it's not content.

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We already had zones and fates. There are 6 additional zones every expansion that contain fates. We already had multiple fate grinds with the relic weapons quest. So tell me how it was content we did not have before? Critical engagements were no different than a boss fate you got teleported to. Adding additional zones with fates and a tacked on leveling system in the zone is the lazy crap Blizzard does and I am not sure if you have recently seen whats happened with there game recently but its failing pretty bad. You keep saying these are feelings but this is fact that this sort of content already existed doctored to make it look new.

Back to why I called the dev team lazy I have already explained this in a previous post. I could go even further and state that Yoshi P is potentially a liar as he said he and the devs also play the game and clear the savage content. If that were true then they would not rely so much on feedback from the Japanese forums as they would experienced the problems players face first hand. The only way I can see this being true is if they are only playing together on a private test server, which again I seriously doubt. You have to take what the devs say at face value actions speak louder than words. At the end of the day they are trying to promote the game and sell the game. You can quote Yoshi P saying he plays the game all yall want, but where is the evidence of him and his dev team playing the game cause it is not in the class design that is for sure.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the transparency the dev team has with the community and I think they do great work with the expansion releases. How ever that does not change that the dev team appears lazy with the content lately, as well as class design.

And to everyone that says I am what Yoshi P is talking about. If you think someone saying you are lazy is mean it isn't, it is actual feedback. If an employer states you are lazy it means that you are under performing compared to others. Some of this community has got to get it together and stop sticking up for everything about this game so hard. And now with this statement any negative feedback is going to get the band of Yoshi P worshippers up in arms to not be mean to the devs.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

We already had zones and fates. There are 6 additional zones every expansion that contain fates. We already had multiple fate grinds with the relic weapons quest. So tell me how it was content we did not have before?

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Is a 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > final boss dungeon content to you? We have tons of them in the game already so the formula isn't new, it's just in a new location with new scenery.

That's exactly the same as having FATEs in all of the new zones. Eureka and Bozja, just like new dungeons, were new zones with encounters to do and new background stories. They were absolutely new content as they didn't exist in the game prior to their introduction.

If you're expecting the dev team to come up with completely original encounter mechanics with every new expansion and patch, I'm afraid you're out of luck. There are only so many ways to have players interact with the world within the framework of class and zone design. FATEs are one of the better, if not the best, way to provide group content in an overworld/non-dungeon zone as the level sync put everyone on the same page and provides some level of challenge that wouldn't be there if highly over leveled players went in and deleted everything in 10 seconds.

It's not lazy development. It's using available assets as effectively as possible to give the dev team more time to work on other things as well.

Having worked in Japan I can guarantee the people in CBU3 aren't lazy in any way a Westerner would consider it from a workflow/productivity stand point. In fact, the most productive/hard working people here in the US are on the lower tier of performance expectations in Japan.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

Is a 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > final boss dungeon content to you? We have tons of them in the game already so the formula isn't new, it's just in a new location with new scenery.

That's exactly the same as having FATEs in all of the new zones. Eureka and Bozja, just like new dungeons, were new zones with encounters to do and new background stories. They were absolutely new content as they didn't exist in the game prior to their introduction.

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When Yoshi P says they are giving us less dungeons per patch for better casual content, and the result is another zone with fates, you cannot tell me that is a not bit of a let down. And no Bozja and Eureka were not exactly new its just a zone with fates and a weird progression system attached to it. In the end this was a relic weapon grind zone where we do as we always have done for the relic weapon, grind fates. Which I will not be surprised if we do again in this expansion. Also your whole explanation of a dungeon being 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > final boss shows laziness as well. Everything is so formulaic because it is easy to copy/paste/edit code then write new code for something different and more unique.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

If you're expecting the dev team to come up with completely original encounter mechanics with every new expansion and patch, I'm afraid you're out of luck. There are only so many ways to have players interact with the world within the framework of class and zone design.

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And yes, seeing how I pay for a monthly subscription, pay for each new expansion individually I don't see any reason why I should not expect to see original mechanics and design. I think the new savage fights are actually interesting and have cool mechanics to them. Kudos to that keep up the good work on some of these fights.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

FATEs are one of the better, if not the best, way to provide group content in an overworld/non-dungeon zone as the level sync put everyone on the same page and provides some level of challenge that wouldn't be there if highly over leveled players went in and deleted everything in 10 seconds.

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Obviously you did not do Chi the first couple of weeks of Endwalker where it was deleted with in 10 seconds due to the number of players in the encounter.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

It's not lazy development. It's using available assets as effectively as possible to give the dev team more time to work on other things as well.

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Reusing assets is both considered lazy and efficient. The two can be synonymous as typically the laziest people in the world come up with the most efficient methods of completing tasks.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

When Yoshi P says they are giving us less dungeons per patch for better casual content, and the result is another zone with fates, you cannot tell me that is a not bit of a let down. And no Bozja and Eureka were not exactly new its just a zone with fates and a weird progression system attached to it. In the end this was a relic weapon grind zone where we do as we always have done for the relic weapon, grind fates. Which I will not be surprised if we do again in this expansion. Also your whole explanation of a dungeon being 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > boss > 3 pack > final boss shows laziness as well. Everything is so formulaic because it is easy to copy/paste/edit code then write new code for something different and more unique.



And yes, seeing how I pay for a monthly subscription, pay for each new expansion individually I don't see any reason why I should not expect to see original mechanics and design. I think the new savage fights are actually interesting and have cool mechanics to them. Kudos to that keep up the good work on some of these fights.




Obviously you did not do Chi the first couple of weeks of Endwalker where it was deleted with in 10 seconds due to the number of players in the encounter.



Reusing assets is both considered lazy and efficient. The two can be synonymous as typically the laziest people in the world come up with the most efficient methods of completing tasks.

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You keep repeating they are lazy, why? This thread is about how to communicate without being insulting and you want to come into it and change the subject and insult every chance you get why? Does your forum name reflect the image you are trying to project? You can convey without the name calling and still convey what you want. But I think you are just determined to find fault and call names because you don't want to be told it's WRONG. It's wrong to continue to attack anyone by insulting it never works out for the person who does it. People don't want to read your insults. Just stop because this thread and your constant flow of insults are negative and no one in their right mind wants to continue to read that. Sorry not sorry.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

You keep repeating they are lazy, why? This thread is about how to communicate without being insulting and you want to come into it and change the subject and insult every chance you get why? Does your forum name reflect the image you are trying to project? You can convey without the name calling and still convey what you want. But I think you are just determined to find fault and call names because you don't want to be told it's WRONG. It's wrong to continue to attack anyone by insulting it never works out for the person who does it. People don't want to read your insults. Just stop because this thread and your constant flow of insults are negative and no one in their right mind wants to continue to read that. Sorry not sorry.

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If I replace lazy with I wish the dev team would show more effort, activity, and care would that make you feel better?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

If I replace lazy with I wish the dev team would show more effort, activity, and care would that make you feel better?

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It honestly would be a more civil way to say it, yes. Because I know in your mind you know that no one wants to be called lazy. You know that.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

When Yoshi P says they are giving us less dungeons per patch for better casual content, and the result is another zone with fates, you cannot tell me that is a not bit of a let down. And no Bozja and Eureka were not exactly new its just a zone with fates and a weird progression system attached to it. In the end this was a relic weapon grind zone where we do as we always have done for the relic weapon, grind fates.

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I prefer casual content, am happy with how they've done it, and was not at all let down by Eureka and Bozja. To me, FATEs in those zones had more purpose than FATEs in the regular zones, which is an improvement in my book. The boss fight FATEs are the functional equivalent to Trials where we go, kill a boss, and leave. Again though, they had a purpose such as getting a raid to spawn, which was better than just doing FATEs with less of a goal.

We're always going to have relic grinds, that's just how it is, and grinding FATEs is a good way for a player to not have to spam dungeons if they don't want. Options are good for the game.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

And yes, seeing how I pay for a monthly subscription, pay for each new expansion individually I don't see any reason why I should not expect to see original mechanics and design. I think the new savage fights are actually interesting and have cool mechanics to them. Kudos to that keep up the good work on some of these fights.

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There you go. Savage raids are new content, with new mechanics, and new design. Please continue doing those to meet your need for original things.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Obviously you did not do Chi the first couple of weeks of Endwalker where it was deleted with in 10 seconds due to the number of players in the encounter.

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A massive number of people attacking something will, of course, cause it to die quickly. I got tired of waiting for an hour for Chi to spawn to get a mount I really don't care about so I stopped. Doing the FATE for the frog suit was the same thing; tons of people were attacking it so it died quickly. You don't see 50 people hitting normal overworld FATEs, so the comparison doesn't really stand up.

Let's not forget that one healer thread that in the title called the dev team hack frauds basically.

Also I am glad someone brought up the Gunbreaker issue, because it is one that truly boggles my mind. It is framed as a broken promise, but that premise only makes sense if there ever was a explicit, written promise like that, but that ... that does not exist!. Just pick and choose the best combination for the moment, there is zero issues here. If it violates your comfort, sorry but adjust. Like what, game devs bad because thing changed and now I must find a new comfort zone? Cmon. People HAVE to be able to not overstate the amount of harm some of these things do.

For the poster who enjoys using the term 'lazy':

Do you develop software for money?
Do you work as a project manager or a lead developer for a software team?
Do you have any idea, whatsoever, what goes into the development process for a piece of software?

Or are you an armchair developer with no real experience?

Just asking about your usage of the word 'lazy', since it tumbles so smoothly from your keyboard.

tl;dr Do you even code, bro?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Stuff I'll get to in another reply. As it's actually quite of bit to reply too.

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This here is just a quick reply to your last point. You don't need to be MEAN to the devs to get your point across. Or do you think you can be mean to them? I mean you said it. Let me quote you. "And now with this statement any negative feedback is going to get the band of Yoshi P worshippers up in arms to not be mean to the devs." You can have negative feedback I hope noone is telling you that. What I'm saying is you can give that feedback without insulting them. Thats why you're getting so much pushback here in this topic. It's not the issues you have, it's the TONE in which you speak them. I mean that's what this thread is about.

Its really surprising to me how vicious and bitter some of this community is towards the dev team. Here I thought a lot of folks are respectful or have a bit of faith towards them considering the amount of work and effort they do between each expansion and keeping the general crowd happy.

We just got the best community award... Like you can provide feedback and be polite at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its really surprising to me how vicious and bitter some of this community is towards the dev team. Here I thought a lot of folks are respectful or have a bit of faith towards them considering the amount of work and effort they do between each expansion and keeping the general crowd happy.

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Your mum is respectful, have a wonderful day.

I can see vile comments towards the devs on say a great deal over general discussion but when it comes to discussing job classes it's more venting frustration on why the jobs function as is and have some glaring issues in relation to other job classes of the same role.

There are very valid complaints across all 3 roles. I can sympathize with their frustration. And I don't think putting on a fake filter for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings just isn't going to get the point across. And when Yoshi P wants to claim he plays his own game and you get design problems on a multitude of classes because they weren't extensively tested. You can say they were. They weren't.

Over the years I haven't seen much interaction from the forums actual staff. The Hempen Camise example mentioned earlier claimed they looked into it and their response was they will not give any race access to all the racial designs under the pretense that they want to keep the races unique but in actuality it is because it's used as incentive for players to buy fantasia potions for race swaps so they as a company can make more money. All it is really.

Furthermore the most recent action we've seen from the staff is a massive purge of posts from the media tour blowout when all the content and information leaked and spread like a plague before the NDA lifted.

So they are capable of taking action when needed but is there actual interaction between the players? Not really.

I'd say when it comes to community support that's when it comes to technical issues, apologies for delays, liveletters keeping you updated on stuff, having a roadmap for what's coming, addressing the server congestion they are top notch when it comes to that. No question about it and is some of the best I've ever seen from any game that falls under GaaS(Games as a Service).

If they do read the forums I think it might be helpful if they read the general issues people have and just sift out the garbage. But the administration that oversees the forum? They have very little say or control over what happens in the game. So it probably isn't a surprise they went cold turkey since 3.0.

Again I'll restate from a earlier post. If the devs want a civil conversation they have to open proper channels for conversation to begin with or you aren't going to reach any level of understanding. Even a series of dev diaries or liveletters discussing the direction they want each individual job class would be something to alleviate the concerns of some players. Or at least offer some transparency.

As a whole the game is fine and has a plethora of content but an ever growing issue is design problems among jobs.

And that's all I have to say about that.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Even a series of dev diaries or liveletters discussing the direction they want each individual job class would be something to alleviate the concerns of some players. Or at least offer some transparency.

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That's an excellent idea we might not agree with the devs 100% of time regarding the class but at least would help us understand the class direction and why actions were taken.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

For the poster who enjoys using the term 'lazy':

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Do you develop software for money? Not currently but I have for an internship
Do you work as a project manager or a lead developer for a software team? I have lead a small team of interns and developed in an internship
Do you have any idea, whatsoever, what goes into the development process for a piece of software? I do
Or are you an armchair developer with no real experience? no I work networking because I lack of effort, activity and care(lazy) to code all that crap
tl;dr Do you even code, bro? Not to the extent that I used to
Probably not the answers you were expecting. My college required us to intern to graduate and my degree was computer science. I may not have years of experience but I understand the gist of it.
What does any of that have to do with my terminology? Are you saying because I do not work in this industry I cannot have an opinion of what poor design is? I feel you are trying to use my career choice and/or education to belittle or harass me which is not cool.

My tone is aggressive, if you feel that is mean than that is your misinterpretation. Honestly it is extremely petty how the term lazy is being blown out of proportion vs saying lack of effort, activity, and care. Has the world changed that much to where lazy is now offensive, mean, or derogatory? I am 100% sure if I started off with lack of effort, activity and care every one would have the same complaint about what I said is mean. Your deflecting my feedback because you have a problem with the terminology I used and that is your problem not mine. That is what this community has always done and that is why the game is in this current state. A larger portion of this games community are casual players, which there is nothing wrong with, however the game caters heavily towards them and lacks in other areas. This community constantly attempts to gate keep any negative feedback regarding this as well as other things, but that is a whole different issue. If you think calling the devs lazy is what Yoshi P is talking about you are heavily mistaken.

There are people that has said worst and even threatened them, and that is what they are referencing. Not an individual saying the devs are lazy cause of x design and y lack of content. More than likely individual devs were likely called out, called names, and even threatened. It was even mentioned earlier in this forum but everyone chose to berate me for the term lazy and likely did not even read it.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You guys do realize the target group that Yoship is referring to are those Japanese extreme players who mailed knife blade as threat right?
These guys are the worst and can even go as far as burning down an anime studio.
These are the group that constantly making verbal threat and stalking.
He is not referring to the - who always using subscription as threat, those are just sheeps.
He is talking about the real wolves here.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

FFXIV has gotten better with every expansion and that trend continued with EndWalker. Who are these whiners who say otherwise?

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Dark Knights since HW...

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Credit to reddit translator Iluna Minori.
Original JP Text

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So there is a problem here. It is impossible for them to avoid the crazy anti flaming raging people. It just can't happen. Telling them to calm down will do nothing. You will never have a community of super polite or yes people. There is always going to be sour grapes, angry people, irrational people taking out their problems on others, so on and so forth. Anyone who believes otherwise has not lived in the real world. The devs will have to either learn to ignore it, filter it better by just removing these people, or get torn down by it.

The other part is it is them talking about the japanese side. They are much more toxic and much more angry than the NA forums could ever be. It just is their culture. This is a dev problem. Not an other people problem. They need to learn to cope, take action to fix it, or ignore it. There are no other solutions. No amount of talking or sending messages will fix these broken unfixable types that their entire existence feeds off this lifestyle.

something something great community by the way also haha.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

In case it hasn't been made painfully obvious by now, you're the kind of person YP is talking about.

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If echoing someone's own sentiment that they don't play tanks at high level, and voicing a dislike for Eureka-style content in a straightforward manner, while still not name calling is this community's standard for horrible, unbearable cruelty? Then it's plain the community only tolerates Stepford positive feedback.

The problem pervading this thread isn't Yoshi telling lunatic JP players issuing death threats to knock it off. It's the babying NA community equating "this content/design is bad" with unimaginable horror that shouldn't be countenanced.

I will continue my broken record statements that FFXIV's community's worst problem is its toxic fake positivity and lionization of passive-aggression as "mature" behavior.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

If echoing someone's own sentiment that they don't play tanks at high level, and voicing a dislike for Eureka-style content in a straightforward manner, while still not name calling is this community's standard for horrible, unbearable cruelty? Then it's plain the community only tolerates Stepford positive feedback.

The problem pervading this thread isn't Yoshi telling lunatic JP players issuing death threats to knock it off. It's the babying NA community equating "this content/design is bad" with unimaginable horror that shouldn't be countenanced.

I will continue my broken record statements that FFXIV's community's worst problem is its toxic fake positivity and lionization of passive-aggression as "mature" behavior.

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What is it with people struggling to grasp the notion; "It is not what you say but how you say it" - You don't need to outright be offensive or rude. Simply stating, or trying to push the agenda that the developers are lazy, particularly from people who aren't even remotely qualified to do the self-same job, or of equal proportion is almost absurdly laughable. #

I need only practically look at the myriad of threads on this forum to see a clear and noticeable portion of people using it as an opportunity to be either rude and disrespectful towards people that more than likely work harder than the absolute vast majority of people on this forum. Take for example telling a developer or making the statement that they should be fired simply because their design philosophy doesn't align with your own. - What you and many people need to realise is that there is a distinction between criticising the content and the design of aforementioned content, and then criticising the developers themselves as a result. I've seen a fair few cases where people have taken less time criticising the content and how it can be improved, and more time trying to spurt out nonsensical and counterproductive remarks.

You can construe the behaviour as you wish. If someone acting like a fairly decent human being constitutes as fake positivity or passive-aggressive then by all means... Personally I'd rather not have a decrepit moral compass.

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Originally Posted by Crossu

Important to note that he's talking mostly to the japanese playerbase.

We're okay, they don't read the english forums.

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Considering the way "feedback" is presented here I wouldn't read it either.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

What does any of that have to do with my terminology? Are you saying because I do not work in this industry I cannot have an opinion of what poor design is?

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You can have an opinion. You actually know how to phrase things without personal enmity showing. But you don't. And you aren't complaining about 'poor design', you are accusing developers of being 'lazy', which is not the same thing.

I asked about your familiarity with software programming. It looks like you've done small projects for college, but haven't actually worked on something with a budget, bosses, or specific requirements you don't get to choose. It doesn't look as though you were working on a game or a web site where you had to interact with other departments of developers who produce art work, music, and text to specifications provided by someone else.

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My tone is aggressive, if you feel that is mean than that is your misinterpretation. Honestly it is extremely petty how the term lazy is being blown out of proportion vs saying lack of effort, activity, and care. Has the world changed that much to where lazy is now offensive, mean, or derogatory?

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The term 'lazy' is a negative term used without thought. It is an excuse to condemn a section of the population without knowing anything about them. It has been used in the past as an excuse to treat minorities, or the poor in general, as trash. It is indeed offensive, mean and derogatory when used the way you've done.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The term 'lazy' is a negative term used without thought. It is an excuse to condemn a section of the population without knowing anything about them. It has been used in the past as an excuse to treat minorities, or the poor in general, as trash. It is indeed offensive, mean and derogatory when used the way you've done.

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There it is. Trying to turn it political.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

There it is. Trying to turn it political.

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"To paraphrase William James, politics is something that happens to an idea. Nothing is “political” in and of itself; a person’s convictions are “political” because of what politicians argue about. A person is not responsible for whether or not his or her beliefs are controversial. That’s why the most common rejoinder to “you shouldn’t get political” is simply, “What I’m saying shouldn’t be ‘political.’ It shouldn’t be controversial at all. The blame for making this commitment political rests on those who contest it.” The argument is either (a) commitment to this value goes deeper than politics, or (b) this is a fact and it should be uncontroversial. This is the defense used—fairly—when priests preach about caring for the poor or the unborn, when athletes talk about racial profiling by police officers, when movies depict history with obvious parallels to the present, and when professors teach about systemic inequality. In these and other cases, people don’t set out to make a “political statement,” they set out to tell a truth—a truth that just so happens to be politicized by some members our culture.

This is not to say that all statements of this type are actually true. It’s fine to argue that a statement is wrong, misleading, or irrelevant. But to protest or dismiss a statement simply because it’s political is to deny that there are some truths which have a claim on us regardless of our party affiliation."

http://www.forthesakeofarguments.com...o-be-political

That's a lot of words defending laziness.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

What is it with people struggling to grasp the notion; "It is not what you say but how you say it" - You don't need to outright be offensive or rude.

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what is it with people like you saying things like that and then starting to go on a toxic tirade against the people they disagree with, which happens throughout the whole thread? several posts had zero indication that the person criticizing the devs/their job design or whatever used any mean words, yet people like you go on huge rants about how they must've been overtly aggressive and come to other various assumption about the other side of the argument to vilify the other side
follow your own words, for once and be nice

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Simply stating, or trying to push the agenda that the developers are lazy, particularly from people who aren't even remotely qualified to do the self-same job, or of equal proportion is almost absurdly laughable. #

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the big majority of people who voice their concerns and issues with the game do so in a completely civil and constructive ways and the same crap happens, and yes, some of the people are or have been game devs and yet, people are still attacking them because to some people SE can do no wrong

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument
not for art, not for music, not for game design, not for anything

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument
not for art, not for music, not for game design, not for anything

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You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

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...which many people that got attacked in this thread didn't do, not to mention that it's, in my eyes, completely valid to complain and criticize said work ethic when it results in issues like these - or the current undertune of dancer and whm's mp issues, which should have been noticed when testing

I'm sorry what? White Mage has MP issues? I thought it was perfectly fine at lv.90.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

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It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument

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It's a desperation move aimed at discrediting someone's criticism. It's a fallacy called "Appeal to accomplishment" and it's a type of logical fallacy, so their argument is immediately considered invalid.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

...which many people that got attacked in this thread didn't do, not to mention that it's, in my eyes, completely valid to complain and criticize said work ethic when it results in issues like these - or the current undertune of dancer and whm's mp issues, which should have been noticed when testing

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I cannot speak to every conversation being had in this thread, just the ones trying to justify attacking the workers behind the game.

All of those being a result of either bad decisions or poor implementation, not necessarily a lack of work ethic or skill and the latter being bad testing, not even the responsibility of the people in charge of creating the content itself. You can definitely criticize every part of that without calling someone "lazy", even the testers may have not been directed to test those particular aspects. This would be a bad call and oversight, but there are reasons that this could happen without anyone ever shirking work.


The entire point being you can say what you don't like and what you want and even what you'd do differently without starting to make personal judgement calls on the workers themselves.

"This mechanic is pointless, I never use it. It doesn't feel like anyone actually used this or tested it's viability. There are, on the same class, way more optimal rotations and solutions for the exact same situation this is used for. I would like this mechanic to work this way since it would be a different and useful system"

To which people will probably say "But it never changed even when I complained about it so it deserved to be escalated because they aren't listening. Obviously they are lazy because they refuse to change it. "

Which is NOT a reason to start insulting peoples work ethics or character. That really doesn't help ANYTHING. You're making huge assumptions about the reasoning behind the problem instead of concentrating on the fact that the problem still remains.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

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That's exactly the thing. Problems, miscommunication, directives, client limitations and metric quotas all contribute invisibly to what we get. If you don't know the whole road it took for something to get to you, maybe don't call the people responsible for getting it to you names, just say "hey.. this is broken. I don't want this".

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

All of those being a result of either bad decisions or poor implementation, not necessarily a lack of work ethic or skill and the latter being bad testing, not even the responsibility of the people in charge of creating the content itself. You can definitely criticize every part of that without calling someone "lazy", even the testers may have not been directed to test those particular aspects. This would be a bad call and oversight, but there are reasons that this could happen without anyone ever shirking work.

The entire point being you can say what you don't like and what you want and even what you'd do differently without starting to make personal judgement calls on the workers themselves.

"This mechanic is pointless, I never use it. It doesn't feel like anyone actually used this or tested it's viability. There are, on the same class, way more optimal rotations and solutions for the exact same situation this is used for. I would like this mechanic to work this way since it would be a different and useful system"

To which people will probably say "But it never changed even when I complained about it so it deserved to be escalated because they aren't listening. Obviously they are lazy because they refuse to change it. "

Which is NOT a reason to start insulting peoples work ethics or character. That really doesn't help ANYTHING. You're making huge assumptions about the reasoning behind the problem instead of concentrating on the fact that the problem still remains.

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you can't, but I don't blame people for calling them lazy either, when some complaints have been there since HW (and presumably not just coming from EN speakers) and haven't been acknowledged or worked on in any way or form, despite supposedly reading player feedback

maybe it's not laziness from those devs themselves because they might not even know better, but from the person responsible for compiling the feedback from the forums and them simply not telling them about the problems, or selectively choosing which ones to transmit and which not

again, I even agree that calling them lazy isn't the correct choice of words and it feels to me that it's used to sugarcoat the opinion that the devs/designers seemingly don't play their own game - or the people responsible for QA/job testing aren't doing a good job, hence the complaints

I just disagree with the notion that any criticism is bad, something which several people in this thread have basically said as they've attacked and argued people who were posting in a completely civil manner, not seeing the irony that they're being no better than the people they complain, about against people that don't do what they're being accused of, all to deflect criticism of any kind

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

I just disagree with the notion that any criticism is bad, something which several people in this thread have basically said as they've attacked and argued people who were posting in a completely civil manner, not seeing the irony that they're being no better than the people they complain, about against people that don't do what they're being accused of, all to deflect criticism of any kind

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Not an argument I'd ever make. Criticism is an important part of a "live" games healthy lifecycle. I just suggest that before you feel you can level an attack at the people behind the job, maybe you should understand the job they do better than "I use the product".

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Not an argument I'd ever make. Criticism is an important part of a "live" games healthy lifecycle. I just suggest that before you feel you can level an attack at the people behind the job, maybe you should understand the job they do better than "I use the product".

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I wasn't speaking about you, tbh, but about posters in this thread, who disagree with your notion (and mine too, for that matter)

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

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I don't think anyone has called out a single dev like poor Bob in the example here. I believe the comment was directed towards the team seeing how I am the one who made it. Is what is happening here is people are trying to turn the statement into something it is not. The statement that "I believe the dev team has been lazy and has produced lazy content in my opinion", has some how been escalated into slander against an individual, racist, and even an agenda pushing comment. Nothing anyone has said so far in this thread has insinuated any of the things that are being claimed here. It is absolutely insane that people have escalated the word lazy to this degree just to defend the devs. What is going on with this is now far beyond my original statement and I no longer want any a part of as this as it is actually getting to an offensive level to me being a minority. I think people should be ashamed of themselves for turning such a minor comment into this. This is another example of people becoming exactly what they claim to be against.

Those of you that have addressed what was said in an intellectual and mature way I appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

It doesn't help that some people seem to have a parasocial relationship with the game or the role/job they play.

In the end, every change, every design choice, is up to the devs. If they decided to go one way with an element of gameplay or a job, acting like they kicked your dog on the forums isn't going to change anything. At some point, you have to cut your losses or you're just wasting energy being so emotionnaly invested into something that won't change.

We have people here that have been complaining for years about certain things. Things that obviously the devs have no intention of changing or they'd have done it by now. At some point, I have to ask : what are you actually expecting?

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I'd like to point out the double standard here.. Indeed people have been complaining about things for ages.. let's take DRK specifically for this.. Living Dead as been ignored since release with no comment, while other invulns have changed.. removal of locking in place with Holmgang for example..

More recently we had people interview YoshiP about some DRK changes.. his response was that "No one had mentioned that to him before" when we look at the 200+ DRK mega thread where it's been mentioned COUNTLESS times.

So it comes down to two thing.. either the devs read the forums and never report it to YoshiP or the devs don't read the forums at all. Either way they are lying about feedback that has been given and that's just as bad as insulting the people who tried their hardest to give honest feedback

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I'd like to point out the double standard here.. Indeed people have been complaining about things for ages.. let's take DRK specifically for this.. Living Dead as been ignored since release with no comment, while other invulns have changed.. removal of locking in place with Holmgang for example..

More recently we had people interview YoshiP about some DRK changes.. his response was that "No one had mentioned that to him before" when we look at the 200+ DRK mega thread where it's been mentioned COUNTLESS times.

So it comes down to two thing.. either the devs read the forums and never report it to YoshiP or the devs don't read the forums at all. Either way they are lying about feedback that has been given and that's just as bad as insulting the people who tried their hardest to give honest feedback

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From what I remember from this Media Tour interview, the "we had no clue about it" part was concerning Blood Weapon and not LD. At this point I'm pretty sure they are fine with LD situation as a design choice and won't ever change it.

As for the Blood Weapon situation, it kinda feels like (and the interviews during Media Tour where mrHappy asked about MCH and ping issues too) they are completely ignorant of high ping issues. Like, the feedback probably gets to them, they try to test it out while sitting on top of the server and they go like "uh, no, this is fine". Which is, I agree, not excusable.