Worthless Live Letter

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

No braindead thread would be complete without Aword at this stage would it.

Fox/Source is correct. Enough with the appeasement. Engage brain, effort and participate in something worthwhile. Nothing about current Job design is anything more than a tedious joke.

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Healer job design and too a degree tanks but it’s like a different world playing DPS is still so much more fun and also way more different play styles then healer can ever have. Healers just press ogcd and done.

To shoot yourself in the foot to have fun with healers seems so completely against game logic.

You WANT new gear. You want to chase that reward. That's why you prog, that's why you fight, to reach for that carrot. I'm not saying it is the ONLY carrot, but it's definitely a reason for people to try new bosses and encounters, to gain more power, to get the happy chemicals of progression.

If your class requires you to abandon the chase, to sabotage yourself with lower gear and worse party-members in order to be fun or engaging, it must mean that it has been designed without any sort of consideration for those core aspects.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

To shoot yourself in the foot to have fun with healers seems so completely against game logic.

You WANT new gear. You want to chase that reward. That's why you prog, that's why you fight, to reach for that carrot. I'm not saying it is the ONLY carrot, but it's definitely a reason for people to try new bosses and encounters, to gain more power, to get the happy chemicals of progression.

If your class requires you to abandon the chase, to sabotage yourself with lower gear and worse party-members in order to be fun or engaging, it must mean that it has been designed without any sort of consideration for those core aspects.

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yeah,apparently my idea is bad. I'm fine with it but now I'm confused

My idea is that IL 510 and IL 535 still give the same HP and Defense, but any offensive related attribute still vary. IL535 gear still give higher Str/Mind/Dex/Int and Det/Crit/Direct Hit.

What you were trying to say is that people would lose motivation to raid just because the loss of those additional HP and Defense?

I feel like certain replies are made with eagerness to counter me, which is fine, without reading the full context of my idea.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

If Mind is lowered, healers will have to heal more and their damage will be more irrelevant because Mind is their primary stat for damage increase.

Forcing healers into mindless GCD heal spamming is a big fat no from me.

If you need to cast succor regularly at min item level when you are optimizing it means that your party is bad, terrible or you are not using your oGCDs correctly. GCD healing is common when progging, but you do that only for a day or two for a raid. From e9s I learned my lesson to let parties wipe regularly whenever I have to heal them too much. Some random DPS is gonna upload the log because they finally managed to get a measly purple color parse. Outside prog, I am not casting healer lb3 ever again.

The main thing I like about better gear is that I do not have to rely on competent PF groups to survive big raid-wides. There are already so many trap farming parties and even more parties with Tanks and DPS not using their mitigation abilities. Some tanks literally just provoke the boss during the Tank buster without mitigating it. I'd rather spend one GCD on rezz than to use it on GCD heal to keep them alive because they forgot to press their buttons.

It's nice that healers are not solely responsible for damage mitigation. Tanks and DPS can mitigate a lot more damage than healers. If we wipe on raid-wides no one can tell me anything about casting succor. One oGCD would have mitigated twice as much.

In EW Succor will be shielding for even less so there is that.

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When I said relying on GCD, it does not mean I cast them all the time. But when you try to run Min IL with no meld, you definitely need to cast more GCD heals then doing it normally, not by a lot though.

as for the Mind thing, I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT LOWERING IT. Capitalized in hope of you can notice it because I have had reiterated it twice already....

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

No braindead thread would be complete without Aword at this stage would it.

Fox/Source is correct. Enough with the appeasement. Engage brain, effort and participate in something worthwhile. Nothing about current Job design is anything more than a tedious joke.

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I just don't want to make myself miserable by being angry at status quo, toxic to other people with different ideas, and nostalgic of the past.

I'm just trying to look at things in different angle. I'm okay to be criticized honestly. I'm not afraid of admitting my idea is bad.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I just don't want to make myself miserable by being angry at status quo, toxic to other people with different ideas, and nostalgic of the past.

I'm just trying to look at things in different angle. I'm okay to be criticized honestly. I'm not afraid of admitting my idea is bad.

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Then you're just in denial. Really man, I've read your comments fully and completely; you're just self soothing.

Making concessions at this point is rediculous. We should have fought back when they removed Cleric Stance, because they took it as a sign to completely lobotomize the role entirely.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Then you're just in denial. Really man, I've read your comments fully and completely; you're just self soothing.

Making concessions at this point is rediculous. We should have fought back when they removed Cleric Stance, because they took it as a sign to completely lobotomize the role entirely.

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FYI, not everyone likes Cleric Stance. At least, no to the extent as you do.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Cleric Stance wasn't an amazing button either

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Originally Posted by Kraniel

Well yeah, i mean, no one in their right mind is going to say "things were better when we had Cleric Stance".

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Bear in mind that me saying I liked CS doesn't imply I think it was good or that it should come back.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I actually don’t miss the 3-4 dots scholar had. Kinda glad their gone. I don’t miss cleric stance either.

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I would appreciate if you, or anyone, could talk about HP and Defense and their effects on healer gameplay rather than dismissing it with simply so short a word as "concession" or "ludicrous."

So far, the replies I'm getting from my idea is either dismissive, insult(braindead), and total out of context misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

Why not balance the game so that every dungeon would require a DPS with healing abilities? Maybe let one more DPS join and add a few basic healing spells. And give healers more attack powers. If you're making all classes feel the same, might as well fix this mess by making all roles feel the same. At least this way healer wouldn't be so pressured with "healing right" and you would eliminate awkward situations of loss when healer goes down in a dungeon.

It's just so stupid. The developers put themselves into this tiny fragile box of "I don't want to change it all too much but I want to make things easier, and guys please don't get mad, we need you to buy our mounts... hardcore players? Yeah, we don't care. That's not what we're going for. Yeah!"

Also regarding my idea with DPS healing... whenever I played as that DPS with healing power (red mage?), it was utterly pointless. The healer does everything, they have too much healing power so whenever I would heal, it made no difference. Even though I had the time to do that.

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There are games do that. Most of them are action based game

You don't necessarily need healers to fight bosses or running dungeons. Every job has potions and some even have self heals. However, having healers would make fights easier because potions have limited use and self heals have extremely long cooldowns. If you are confident with your skills, you don't need healers. Also healers in such games generally spend lots of time dpsing because many incoming damage can be dodged.

However, FFXIV is a game which Trinity is the core design of everything. The direction you want the game to take seems very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I would appreciate if you, or anyone, could talk about HP and Defense and their effects on healer gameplay rather than dismissing it with simply so short a word as "concession" or "ludicrous."

So far, the replies I'm getting from my idea is either dismissive, insult(braindead), and total out of context misunderstanding.

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The problem that you're really running into is that you're asking for renewed discussion for a concept that's been talked about for a long while and most healers in these forums are too far beyond jaded to discuss it. But because I have a soft (or hard?) spot for Hrothgar (and mostly because I'm bored while waiting for certain files to drop at work), I'll jump into the sea and wade around a bit with some surface thinking, though I can't promise I'll be on-point with completely understanding your point of view.

It's true, as HP and Defense go up, players lose a smaller percentage of their HP when hit by a particular attack; therefore, as HP and Defenses go down, players lose a larger percentage of their HP for that same attack. As iLevels increase, so do stats, which include HP and Defenses. If it were allowed that HP and Defenses would not increase for a dungeon, but STR, INT, and MND were increased, ignoring the other implications (for the entire of the party) for now, and ignoring the secondary stats, this would not really do much for healer-specific gameplay except contribute to the amount of overhealing that would be created or increase the possible downtime from healing.

For this example, let's still ignore those other implications and secondary stats, and also ignore other abilities, spells, and skills.
Let's say that the Tank gets 75000 HP, and would always take 10000 damage from an enemy auto-attack, but then take 25000 damage from the enemy's Miracle Kick attack.
Let's say that, at minimum ilevel and stats, Sylphie goes in and wants to Cure the Tank to keep them going, and that Cure heals for 6000 HP. That means they would need 2 Cures to heal the damage dealt by each auto-attack (with a 2000 HP overheal), and then 5 to heal the damage dealt by Miracle Kick (with a 5000 HP overheal).
Eventually, though, as her MND stat grows, the situation turns into Sylphie healing for more than 6000 HP. Let's say she's gained enough MND to heal for 8000 HP per Cure. That means she still needs 2 Cures to heal the damage dealt by each auto-attack (now with a 6000 HP overheal), and then 4 Cures to heal the damage dealt by Miracle Kick (with a 7000 HP overheal).

All that really becomes of this situation is that Sylphie would end up needing even less Cures to heal up the damage for the tank over time and, since we would always know the minimum baseline for tanks and what damage they would be dealt, this would lead to making things even more predictable, turning every dungeon crawl into a Squeenix-approved blend of choreography and a player's brain age score.
This isn't factoring in abilities and other spells by healers, of course, and this definitely doesn't factor in the other party members' agency, especially the Tanks who, I suspect, would be none-too-pleased about removing a key component of their growth (reducing damage taken based on their stats alone) from the game. All of this, and we still haven't addressed that the gameplay for healers' downtime needs some spicing up, that we can't force Sylphie to cast more than her favorite Cure, that Squeen will likely adjust the damage to lesser numbers than I have stated to ensure that Scraggly Spriggan doesn't one-shot the DPS players with his 15-turned-40k damage Pebble Toss that the DPS managed to fling themselves into (assuming DPS would be given less HP and Defense than the tank), and we haven't even factored in other mobs yet. Once you factor other mobs in, this sort of change would boil the game down into slow-paced dungeon-crawls, where going over the designated Squeen-approved pulls means certain death, and the new gameplay becomes demolishing enemies one at a time, as quickly as possible.
Or else, Squeen would reduce the damage dealt by enemies to the point where we'd resume the same gameplay loop we have now (and so things wouldn't really change).

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

The problem that you're really running into is that you're asking for renewed discussion for a concept that's been talked about for a long while and most healers in these forums are too far beyond jaded to discuss it.

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Well, some people certainly don't mind making yet another 1000+ posts complaining about the same thing over and over again for years to come.

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this would not really do much for healer-specific gameplay except contribute to the amount of overhealing that would be created or increase the possible downtime from healing.

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I won't be so sure about that, but you might be right. I'd love to see how it turns out, though.The current system we have here reduces the need of healing and mitigation as we gear up. No matter how much heal checks are made, gears always have impacts on how we heal. We don't need to do min IL to know the difference. We can just look at those healers at week 1 prog and know the difference about how people heal today.

Not saying SE should just adjust HP and defense and call it a day though. Healers still need more attention and I agree healers as a role should feel more engaging to play. My point is that lots of healers are asking for more things to heal, yet gears will always be one of the reasons that reduce the healing required, thus reducing the impact of healers in a party.


There are requests stating healers want to feel useful to the party. However, asking for more damage options doesn't solve this. If healers are designed to contribute 20% damage of total raid damage, then adding more offensive spells and abilities won't change that. Healers still contribute 20% damage anyway. All of rotations and extra botton press won't change how useful to the party healers are. Even if SE did answer our wish and give us what we want, healers will be as useful as they currently are. Healers just can't get anymore useful.

It seems to me 1 button spam is not the reason that leads to the mentality of not feeling impactful, but the gear is.

Regarding Syphies, aren't they going to overheal anything at any situations anyway?

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Squeen will likely adjust the damage to lesser numbers than I have stated to ensure that Scraggly Spriggan doesn't one-shot the DPS players with his 15-turned-40k damage Pebble Toss that the DPS managed to fling themselves into

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Umm....even in min IL run, it's rare to see DPS getting one shot by non tank mechanics. Minimum IL does not mean being naked with no job stone. DPS are actually durable enough to be able to take quite a few hits from raid boss autos

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Well, some people certainly don't mind making yet another 1000+ posts complaining about the same thing over and over again for years to come.

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Fair enough. Meanwhile, we're also still seeing things from Yoshi and his crew which are currently reinforcing and polishing all that jade. I'm not talking about the leaks either, though some of them have certainly been a great compound for that extra lustrous shine.

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My point is that lots of healers are asking for more things to heal, yet gears will always be one of the reasons that reduce the healing required, thus reducing the impact of healers in a party.

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Which is one of the recurring discussion points that gets talked about very often for this game, unfortunately. But, because MND is tied to our healing and damage potency, unless that was also specified for each encounter, alongside HP and defenses, our growth would still inevitably trivialize the encounters without solving any of the issues we hoped to at least gain headway on.

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There are requests stating healers want to feel useful to the party. However, asking for more damage options doesn't solve this.

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Not universally, but you also have to remember that there are many different requests going on in the healer forums, all at the same time. In addition to healers wanting to feel "useful" to the party, one big request is that healers wish to feel engaged. Since the general consensus is that encounters and stats will not be allowed to put pressure on players who lay flat against the skill floor, at least in regards to healing, the simplest and most immediate fallback is to focus on our ability to deal damage.

Providing support options is also something that gets suggested often, but after the announcement that Square Enix wanted to remove synergy from the game (save for Dancer, as they wanted Synergy to be Dancer's "niche"), many believed that Support was just not something they were willing to allow (see also their removal of status effects, elemental affinities, removal or upheaval of buffs/debuffs from the role, among many other examples and reasons others might cite for why they might feel as such).

It's a complicated situation that everyone can only offer simple solutions to, because to do anything else is just too difficult when there's no rapport or understanding between the developers, their vision and desires, and the players and their vision and desires. Also, frankly, it's just not usually worth the bother for a bit of self-satisfaction.

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Healers just can't get anymore useful.

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Numerically speaking, maybe not. On the other hand, many players are just looking to at least feel more useful, which is something entirely different. It comes back to a familiar question of "if you're not having fun, why are you playing the game?"
Not everyone needs to be the greatest-most-bestest that the world has ever seen (and have the plaque to prove it), but at the very least they would like to, in this fantasy RPG adventure, feel like they have some good impact on the situations presented to them. If that doesn't evolve as the game itself evolves (as it generally must for the sake of progression), then that feeling becomes lost and engagement suffers, which brings many players into a territory of not-fun, which many of my friends and I like to call "boring."
Meanwhile, for someone else, that's more than enough and all that they'd ever need.

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It seems to me 1 button spam is not the reason that leads to the mentality of not feeling impactful, but the gear is.

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Both are components that can lead to a player not feeling impact, and they're not the only ones, too. It's also very subjective, though there is a general guideline on how people something can be engaging or feel impactful to people.

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Regarding Syphies, aren't they going to overheal anything at any situations anyway?

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Oh, absolutely, that's a given. That's less an issue for the Sylphies and more an issue for anyone who would be displeased for their lack of engagement outside of their own brand of selective/tunnel vision.

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I rarely see DPS get one shot by non tank mechanics during my min IL runs, even in raids. Min IL does not mean being naked with no job stone on. DPS are actually quite endurable sometimes

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You're not wrong, but that's why I mentioned I was ignoring certain factors in my hypothetical, particularly variables. It's not to say that these things don't happen, or that DPS players are just all so braindead that they throw themselves into a tankbuster on purpose, or that all healers are Sylphies (or that all Sylphies are just Curebots), it's just that, given the specific scenario provided, the situation doesn't much change for healers from what we currently have with the parameters provided.

In my opinion, if you're really looking to shake things up, then you need to change what the variables are being put into, rather than just alter the variables.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Numerically speaking, maybe not. On the other hand, many players are just looking to at least feel more useful, which is something entirely different. It comes back to a familiar question of "if you're not having fun, why are you playing the game?"
Not everyone needs to be the greatest-most-bestest that the world has ever seen (and have the plaque to prove it), but at the very least they would like to, in this fantasy RPG adventure, feel like they have some good impact on the situations presented to them.
Both are components that can lead to a player not feeling impact, and they're not the only ones, too. It's also very subjective, though there is a general guideline on how people something can be engaging or feel impactful to people.

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What I meant was healers are indeed useful. Healers are needed in most content, especially in raids. They're already being useful to the party. They heal, they mitigate, they raise, they provide raid buffs, and they deal damage. If there's a goal set by developer and the current healers have no problems reaching it, then there's nothing for the developers to fix. Asking for more options in the form of offensive abilities or supportive raid buffs does not change the maximum raid dps contribution set by developers, and I assume when people ask for more raid buffs, they are not asking for defensive ones. SAM is useful simply by doing his own thing. Healers don't need raid buffs to be useful to the team. Healers are useful when they heal. Healers are useful when they mitigate. Healers are useful when they are helping to contribute raid damage.

Feeling useful, however, is subjective. As you have already explained, people have different opinions on current healers. Some like it and some don't. Thing is, if healers do feel engaging in min IL content, which the difficulty was built upon, and they no longer feel as engaged as they gear up, what makes healers have different mentality towards the same content?

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In my opinion, if you're really looking to shake things up, then you need to change what the variables are being put into, rather than just alter the variables.

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My opinion about HP and Defense does not necessarily counteract any other suggestions people are making. They need not homogenize those bonuses as I suggested, but IMO it's worth considering their influences towards any content that involves healing.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Healers don't need raid buffs to be useful to the team. Healers are useful when they heal. Healers are useful when they mitigate. Healers are useful when they are helping to contribute raid damage.

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Which takes us right back to the root of this whole issue.

Healer's aren't healing healing for large chunks of content at all levels of the game. We aren't debuffing because SB took that away, we are barely buffing because SE are deathly afraid of giving healers anything significant after the whole Creator Balance thing. All that's left is mashing that Glare hotkey into a smouldering stump.

Every healer that makes an effort to optimise their gameplay and gear will hit a point where the game devolves into little more than cookie clicker whilst they wait for their next chance to 'be useful'.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Which takes us right back to the root of this whole issue.

Healer's aren't healing healing for large chunks of content at all levels of the game. We aren't debuffing because SB took that away, we are barely buffing because SE are deathly afraid of giving healers anything significant after the whole Creator Balance thing. All that's left is mashing that Glare hotkey into a smouldering stump.

Every healer that makes an effort to optimise their gameplay and gear will hit a point where the game devolves into little more than cookie clicker whilst they wait for their next chance to 'be useful'.

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Now we have Tanks carving away at that usefulness with potent self sustain options too. PLD has so many self healing options I expect them to essentially be able to complete runs without a healer. WAR is also a sustain god. GBN less so, but still get quite a few options. DRK however seems to lack much self sustain options beyond their still potent Darkest Knight. (Though they have to pay a hefty DPS price for that, where the other tanks dont.)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Every healer that makes an effort to optimise their gameplay and gear will hit a point where the game devolves into little more than cookie clicker whilst they wait for their next chance to 'be useful'.

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To be fair, nowadays I think Cookie Clicker has more depth then XIV healers.
-Random timed buff (golden cookies)
-Decisions making (spells)
-Stances managment (pantheon and apocalypse)
-Ressources optimisation (upgrades/building choices)
-Ressources stock/dump (stock exchange, wrinklers, garden)
edit : and they all synergize with each other

Sure you can click a few thousand times between thoses events ; but it isn't reall worth it outside of a burst window (frenzy).
The big difference if that CC is an iddle game ; FFXIV is not yet

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

PLD has so many self healing options I expect them to essentially be able to complete runs without a healer.

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They already can.
PLD and WAR can solo Pagl'than right now.
The newest duty, and our max possible iLVL has not gone up since it was introduced.

And some ShB Savage raids were cleared while current without a healer. We have the infamous E4S SMN party of PLD, WAR, DNC, and 5 SMN as the most obvious example.
(Link for those who haven't seen the vid yet)
https://youtu.be/zdDxjXMMWgU

(Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "runs.")

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Now we have Tanks carving away at that usefulness with potent self sustain options too. PLD has so many self healing options I expect them to essentially be able to complete runs without a healer. WAR is also a sustain god.

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Which is hilarious because they TOOK AWAY THAT TANK SUSTAIN IN SHADOWBRINGERS. . .

Only to bring it back in Endwalker.

Again, another example of they really don't have an overall vision for jobs. They're literally just throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

They already can.
PLD and WAR can solo Pagl'than right now.
The newest duty, and our max possible iLVL has not gone up since it was introduced.

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I rarely put my attention on solo dungeons run, but shouldn't healers be able to solo them as well?

TBs in 4 man dungeons are a joke. As long as healers don't get one shot, they can solo everything due to limitless sustain( unless there's an enrage timer)

Anyone still Stockholmed to WHM and SCH had better prepare for two (more) years of being told that your one button spam jobs "feel comfy"! "I love how simple it is". "I just like to settle down, turn my brain off, and run roulettes after work". "It's so satisfying to keep a tank up through big pulls in (easy) dungeons". "I hope they keep building on this design, it feels really good!"

Your choices at this point are two more years of wondering why the hell these jobs are designed so stupidly a four year old could play them and why people keep defending that design, or play a DPS and roll your eyes wistfully at the healer ghetto whenever more sewage comes splorting out patch after patch.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Healer's aren't healing healing for large chunks of content at all levels of the game.

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Part of the reason is relative to high IL even when synched.

Not saying all contents are well designed though. Eden's Verse is notorious for huge healing downtime.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Anyone still Stockholmed to WHM and SCH had better prepare for two (more) years of being told that your one button spam jobs "feel comfy"! "I love how simple it is". "I just like to settle down, turn my brain off, and run roulettes after work". "It's so satisfying to keep a tank up through big pulls in (easy) dungeons". "I hope they keep building on this design, it feels really good!"

Your choices at this point are two more years of wondering why the hell these jobs are designed so stupidly a four year old could play them and why people keep defending that design, or play a DPS and roll your eyes wistfully at the healer ghetto whenever more sewage comes splorting out patch after patch.

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ok /thread.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Anyone still Stockholmed to WHM and SCH had better prepare for two (more) years of being told that your one button spam jobs "feel comfy"! "I love how simple it is". "I just like to settle down, turn my brain off, and run roulettes after work". "It's so satisfying to keep a tank up through big pulls in (easy) dungeons". "I hope they keep building on this design, it feels really good!"

Your choices at this point are two more years of wondering why the hell these jobs are designed so stupidly a four year old could play them and why people keep defending that design, or play a DPS and roll your eyes wistfully at the healer ghetto whenever more sewage comes splorting out patch after patch.

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Those are the reasons I play healer lmao.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Those are the reasons I play healer lmao.

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If you're happy, that's great. You can make any class comfy by just hitting less buttons. Not everyone needs that though.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Those are the reasons I play healer lmao.

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Good News! There's only one button you need to hit for comfortable healer gameplay. Please look forward to it!

https://i.imgur.com/ZyfD5pa.png


In all seriousness. Good healers expect some level of discomfort. If you're not working to optimize a DPS rotation AFTER you're comfortable with content (which is by far the more amenable state to have with new healers), then you have to be working constantly to keep the party alive. Otherwise, there's no engagement to be had in the long term, period.

Good news! There's a magic button that grants all the wish you want for healers. Please look forward to it

https://i.imgur.com/j52fSpy.png

Non scripted fight. Check

Identify for each healers. Check

Customize Mastery for diversity. Check

Engaging heal checks. Check

Interesting healing mechanics in each healers. Check

dps options for healers. Check

Great party utilities. Check

Square Enix doesn't care about healers, but Blizzard does. The oppression of FFXIV healers ends today. Join World of Warcraft for the glory of healers.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Good news! There's a magic button that grants all the wish you want for healers. Please look forward to it

https://i.imgur.com/j52fSpy.png

Non scripted fight. Check

Identify for each healers. Check

Customize Mastery for diversity. Check

Engaging heal checks. Check

Interesting healing mechanics in each healers. Check

dps options for healers. Check

Great party utilities. Check

Square Enix doesn't care about healers, but Blizzard does. The oppression of FFXIV healers ends today. Join War of Warcraft for the glory of healers.

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Mmm, no.

I've heard enough horror stories about ability gutting starting all the way back in Cataclysm to know no one needs to touch that anymore.

I also like DPSing as a healer in XIV. I also think XIV does a better job giving new players space to breathe in their levelling progression (at least for ARR).

My complaints are about endgame, which echo out into any game's player retention and longevity. If I want a trashpile of outdated systems designed to gate people rather than respect their time, I'll play Oldschool Runescape. At least then I know it's because the community asked for it.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Good news! There's a magic button that grants all the wish you want for healers. Please look forward to it

https://i.imgur.com/j52fSpy.png

Non scripted fight. Check

Identify for each healers. Check

Customize Mastery for diversity. Check

Engaging heal checks. Check

Interesting healing mechanics in each healers. Check

dps options for healers. Check

Great party utilities. Check

Square Enix doesn't care about healers, but Blizzard does. The oppression of FFXIV healers ends today. Join World of Warcraft for the glory of healers.

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So pressing one button over and over and over again is good design then? That's what I'm getting from these replies.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I've heard enough horror stories about ability gutting starting all the way back in Cataclysm to know no one needs to touch that anymore.

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Hearing from someone usually gets you wrong impression about things you don't know.

I promise you the things I listed for healers are still there. Just watch how raiders raid instead of watching refugees complaining how bad WOW is. We all know it to well people tend to over exaggerate when they complain. Not to mention most complaints have nothing to do with engaging healer gameplay.

I'd actually recommend trying Warhammer Return of Reckoning for a healer experience that's genuinely innovative. It's a free community run rerelease of Warhammer Online and whilst it's certainly not without it's own issues, it's a glimpse into how diverse healers can be if a studio is willing to commit the resources into fleshing them out properly.

I've got some super fond memories of healing in WoW though. I actually specifically played on NA servers to prevent myself from getting into hardcore PvE after the obscene amount of time I had pumped into EQ1 and FFXI. Unfortunately that simply meant that I ended up being a hardcore PvPer instead. Mercifully the ping disadvantage in Arena had me going from hero to zero, I didn't have the willpower to reroll and lose my legacy so I moved on.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

So pressing one button over and over and over again is good design then? That's what I'm getting from these replies.

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How did you make such conclusion from my replies is beyond my best imagination. Care to enlighten me? I'm dying to know

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

How did you make such conclusion from my replies is beyond my best imagination. Care to enlighten me? I'm dying to know

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It's inference, because you're only passive-aggressive and hostile to anyone who doesn't like current healer design. Which is largely pressing one button. Over and over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

It's inference, because you're only passive-aggressive and hostile to anyone who doesn't like current healer design. Which is largely pressing one button. Over and over and over again.

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Yes, apparently being passive-aggressive towards someone(not me) who likes current healers is totally acceptable.

If you are so good at monitoring my post history, you would know I only make such comment on people who are being toxic/aggressive/passive- aggressive first.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Yes, apparently being passive-aggressive towards someone(not me) who likes current healers is totally acceptable.

If you are so good at monitoring my post history, you would know I only make such comment on people who are being toxic/aggressive/passive- aggressive first.

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As said person you responded to, probably worth noting you only responded to -half- my first response, where I course corrected immediately after the cheeky dunk precisely to get people to see that it's not because I don't have empathy for the person I responded to. 'I like that it's not hard' isn't a tenable position in the long run. Hell I'm on a third alt atm carrying family and their friends through MSQ fights so they can enjoy the story for what it is. When they try to heal they encounter panic issues and can't ABC past 70% uptime. Am I gonna tell them that? NO. But when they express interest in Savage or ask why I sound bored as I'm doing callouts and fixing their mistakes, I'm going to be honest about it and say "Whether you get good at this game or not you're going to hate healers in the long run, play something else unless you like the stress. That's the lifeblood of the role in any MMO".

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Mmm, no.

I've heard enough horror stories about ability gutting starting all the way back in Cataclysm to know no one needs to touch that anymore.

I also like DPSing as a healer in XIV. I also think XIV does a better job giving new players space to breathe in their levelling progression (at least for ARR).

My complaints are about endgame, which echo out into any game's player retention and longevity. If I want a trashpile of outdated systems designed to gate people rather than respect their time, I'll play Oldschool Runescape. At least then I know it's because the community asked for it.

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As a recent WoW player I can attest to the fact that the healers in WoW all play with similar levels of complexity and up from 3.X healers in FFXIV. Holy priest is the most basic, but it still juggles more DPS spells than current WHM while healing, and has actually interesting and well-designed healing abilities. My personal favorite is Monk, where your entire game plan is maintaining MP via melee attacks while managing your burst heals, AOE heals, regens and soothing mist uptime. I'd highly recommend looking into it even if you don't want to play WoW.

Say what you will about Blizzard, but their healer design is very Chef Kiss worthy.

I'm not a healer, but I feel bad for you guys. Know that we tanks aren't off any much better. I sincerely hope they look into these issues, healing sounds like a bore to me.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

As said person you responded to, probably worth noting you only responded to -half- my first response, where I course corrected immediately after the cheeky dunk precisely to get people to see that it's not because I don't have empathy for the person I responded to. 'I like that it's not hard' isn't a tenable position in the long run. Hell I'm on a third alt atm carrying family and their friends through MSQ fights so they can enjoy the story for what it is. When they try to heal they encounter panic issues and can't ABC past 70% uptime. Am I gonna tell them that? NO. But when they express interest in Savage or ask why I sound bored as I'm doing callouts and fixing their mistakes, I'm going to be honest about it and say "Whether you get good at this game or not you're going to hate healers in the long run, play something else unless you like the stress. That's the lifeblood of the role in any MMO".

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and I consider only my first sentence of my response is kinda passive-aggressive.

The rest of my comment about WOW healers are genuine. They are true to current WOW environment. I wasn't lying just to make sarcasms. Let's be honest, WOW literally has everything most people on healer forums are asking for regarding engaging healer design.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

and I consider only my first sentence of my response is kinda passive-aggressive.

The rest of my comment about WOW healers are genuine. They are true to current WOW environment. I wasn't lying just to make sarcasms. Let's be honest, WOW literally has everything most people on healer forums are asking for regarding engaging healer design.

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And yet I've heard enough from other players about its overall character progression systems to know I would hate playing it in spite of that. Warframe's an amazing shooter I literally cannot play anymore because of its bloated systems that rely on the that core loop being good. Path of Exile turns on my number crunching brain in a good way but it went that way for me too and it's not time-gated at all. If I'm sitting down with a group to grind out some fights together, I'd rather be playing XIV, because the general upkeep is so much less by comparison. Half my static is full of healer mains. Same with my CWL. The fact it gets so much right is why this is such a blight on its experience.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Yes, apparently being passive-aggressive towards someone(not me) who likes current healers is totally acceptable.

If you are so good at monitoring my post history, you would know I only make such comment on people who are being toxic/aggressive/passive- aggressive first.

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If you consider Sebazy toxic, then you consider anyone who has a genuine, measured dislike of current healers to be toxic. And yes, current healers are shittily designed. From a standpoint that's so close to being objective, that it's genuinely astounding that anyone can defend it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

If you consider Sebazy toxic, then you consider anyone who has a genuine, measured dislike of current healers to be toxic. And yes, current healers are shittily designed. From a standpoint that's so close to being objective, that it's genuinely astounding that anyone can defend it.

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I'm not sure whether you replied to a wrong thread, or you want to bring that fight here....well...

1. Never in my wildest dream would I see a person asking to be treated as a collective hive mind, instead of an individual

2. Although toxic isn't the right word in Sebazy's case, I don't think Sebazy was toxic. The reply he made was a little bit aggressive. I only had problem with that reply alone, which means when next time Sebazy making comment on things, I would treat his opinions fairly instead of judging him based on his post history. In short, if i must use your word "toxic", I don't think anyone is a toxic person. I only have problem with toxic replies.

3. same in Sebazy's case, that thread was asking about " Has anyone quit healing." One of the replies are "Nope, if anything the EW leaks have me even more excited to be a healer." And that reply was called White knighting. How does it have anything to do with objective standpoint? There wasn't one to begin with. That reply was simply an answer to a Yes or NO question. How does it even relate to genuine, measured argument of shitty designed healers?

4. Sebazy and I ended up trading blows. We were fine.

I think you should relax.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Yes, apparently being passive-aggressive towards someone(not me) who likes current healers is totally acceptable.

If you are so good at monitoring my post history, you would know I only make such comment on people who are being toxic/aggressive/passive- aggressive first.

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I don't think being passive-agressive and snarky at people helps any side of the argument. If anything it might destroy any sympathy for it.

I don't like when my side, which I do believe have very strong arguments for their criticisms, uses demeaning language and behaves smugly, like our opinions somehow propel us above the rest of the uncultured masses.

That being said, it is easy to bait responses by being polemical, to make others upset so that they make fools of themselves.

One can't be too careful when discussing things on the internet.