Paladin Updates

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Originally Posted by Denmo

How I feel when playing PLD

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...83/2cp5bo5.gif

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Made me fuckin' LOL!




But yea...that's about right. xD

I unno, I was just brain storming really and kind of wondering why they just don't let Spirits Within return MP by half based on the damage it dealt when used in a combo? Poke a mob in the crotch for 600, get 300 MP back. Yay a free Holy Succor every 60 seconds or something like that... Would probably solve their MP issues I would think... Or they could nail the real problem here like everyone else has said. Make defense actually mean something or give them an HP boost.

Clearly SE is reading our PLD fury here and are extending the patch delays each time so they can adjust PLD to our liking.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

unless they also increased the range of Divine Veil this patch, the healing effect is still not that useful considering the vast majority of the time everyone is out of range of the PLD, so the regen doesn't get much use.

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I've said on a few occasions AoEs need to be Party wide and not Area Effects, it would solve so much of the issue of players being out of range.

It's a bit 90s to have AoE buffs.

As an alchemist, I prefer PLD to have mp issue, so I can sell Ether :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by Alise

As an alchemist, I prefer PLD to have mp issue, so I can sell Ether :D :D :D

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And to that I say DIAF.

If I had to tank I'd rather use a Maddening Potion or an Elixer long before I'd even consider the Ether thanks to the universal recast timer but eh, that's just me. I prefer to save my ether for BLM/WHM but to each their own.

...Even then, I'd choose the Nerve Drops and Elixer before the Ether. Man, screw that universal timer.

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I unno, I was just brain storming really and kind of wondering why they just don't let Spirits Within return MP by half based on the damage it dealt when used in a combo? Poke a mob in the crotch for 600, get 300 MP back. Yay a free Holy Succor every 60 seconds or something like that... Would probably solve their MP issues I would think... Or they could nail the real problem here like everyone else has said. Make defense actually mean something or give them an HP boost.

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If Divine Veil is 100% frontal attacks being blocked for 20s, that combined with Outmanouver looks to be a fairly good sanguine rite replacement.

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Originally Posted by Gospel

If I had to tank I'd rather use a Maddening Potion or an Elixer long before I'd even consider the Ether thanks to the universal recast timer but eh, that's just me. I prefer to save my ether for BLM/WHM but to each their own.

...Even then, I'd choose the Nerve Drops and Elixer before the Ether. Man, screw that universal timer.

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I'd agree with you on all counts except for the Elixers. With a medicine cooldown of 7:30 and some rare ingredients, I tend to save those for "oh shit!' moments. On the other hand Mega Potions heal 600 max and only have a medicine cooldown of 1:30. Maddening Potions are alright but I don't see the need for them most of the time.

Edit: and on the topic of Ethers, their cooldown isn't much better than an Elixer but still use easier to find ingredients.

SE loves to give Physical damage reduction to classes when alot of the end game NMs do magical damage O_O

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Originally Posted by Gao

SE loves to give Physical damage reduction to classes when alot of the end game NMs do magical damage O_O

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This. The only way they will be able to keep their PLD has less HP stupidity and have people actually use it is if they give PLD some passive magic damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

You are making up numbers here. 45 secs of every minute? Divine Veil is forced Blocks, not 100% mitigated blocks. You could take 500dmg instead of 600 on a hit, it will just be blocked. To be sure we would have to wait for the servers going up and tests being made.

Enmity wise...Rampart, are you kidding me, biggest hate puller in the game?

I'll give you simple and straight facts for this.

PLD Hate Abilities:

Fast/Flat Blade Combo
Sentinel(raises Enmity generated by other actions)
Rampart
Provoke
Flash
Holy Succor(considering you actually heal yourself, not overheal)

That's it.

Now WAR:

Heavy Swing/Skull Sunder Combo(not to forget Steel Cyclone)
Provoke
Flash
Rampart(oh wait WAR has access to Rampart, the biggest hate puller in the game O.o)
Sentinel
Antagonize(same as Sentinel, raises enmity generated by other actions)
Collusion(gets you the hate of the next action performed by your target close to you, which on a Blindside Dragon Kick just kills PLD alone)

So....the only difference between WAR and PLD hate abilities is Holy Succor...awesome...

To even show you how much better WAR is I'll show you his other advantages...

WAR:

Second Wind(heal yourself for roughly 500HP), since no cast time you actually heal yourself everytime you need to be healed and get enmity for it
Vengeance(counter dmg done to you)
Featherfoot(guaranteed Evade)
Foresight(guaranteed Parry)

While PLD got:

Aegis Boon(guaranteed Block)
Hallowed Ground(15 sec 0 physical dmg)

I can clearly see the advantages of PLD over WAR...especially hate wise, since WAR has access to all PLD hate abilities, while PLD get's Provoke...awesome! JUST AWESOME! You opened my eyes, PLD is the tank for hate!

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I'm not sure if you know what AOE means... but AOE rampart is indeed the biggest hate puller.. and no... WAR doesn't have that

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I'm not sure if you know what AOE means... but AOE rampart is indeed the biggest hate puller.. and no... WAR doesn't have that

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I would like to interject here.

I spend most of my time as WHM, by necessity, but PLD is where my heart is. ('-' ) I wish to say that, embarassingly enough, I do not actually know if Rampart generates more hate by hitting more people.

I do know that I'm not going to run to the mages every time Rampart is up, so that I can spike hate. I do not (personally) know anyone that does. (>> ) That practice seems... counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I would like to interject here.

I spend most of my time as WHM, by necessity, but PLD is where my heart is. ('-' ) I wish to say that, embarassingly enough, I do not actually know if Rampart generates more hate by hitting more people.

I do know that I'm not going to run to the mages every time Rampart is up, so that I can spike hate. I do not (personally) know anyone that does. (>> ) That practice seems... counterproductive.

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It's a good way to grab massive hate at the beginning of the battle. Have everyone gather up, buff, engage, Rampart, split up and go about business as usual. However you're right, after that initial pull it's really hard to get everyone together just to use Rampart and at that point it's just about as effective on WAR as it is on PLD.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

It's a good way to grab massive hate at the beginning of the battle. Have everyone gather up, buff, engage, Rampart, split up and go about business as usual. However you're right, after that initial pull it's really hard to get everyone together just to use Rampart and at that point it's just about as effective on WAR as it is on PLD.

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I'll definitely remember to stay close to other party members for the first Rampart, then. o.o Good to know!

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Originally Posted by Phobos

This. The only way they will be able to keep their PLD has less HP stupidity and have people actually use it is if they give PLD some passive magic damage mitigation.

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I don't know why this isn't just common sense to SE...
That makes so much sense
The both take physical damage similarly well...
WAR has way more HP but PLD deals with Magic damage a hell of a lot better...
that would be an incredible compromise...
You could supercharge the PLD magic EVA... or just add a boost to all the elemental resistances

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I would like to interject here.

I spend most of my time as WHM, by necessity, but PLD is where my heart is. ('-' ) I wish to say that, embarassingly enough, I do not actually know if Rampart generates more hate by hitting more people.

I do know that I'm not going to run to the mages every time Rampart is up, so that I can spike hate. I do not (personally) know anyone that does. (>> ) That practice seems... counterproductive.

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well, in a balanced party, you'll have melee close enough to you to make it productive...
Obviously in WHM WHM BRD BRD BLM BLM BLM parties it is less productive... but even then there are ways to make it work...

But when you've got DRG, WAR, and MNK with you... you can quadruple the enmity gained from Rampart

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I would like to interject here.

I spend most of my time as WHM, by necessity, but PLD is where my heart is. ('-' ) I wish to say that, embarassingly enough, I do not actually know if Rampart generates more hate by hitting more people.

I do know that I'm not going to run to the mages every time Rampart is up, so that I can spike hate. I do not (personally) know anyone that does. (>> ) That practice seems... counterproductive.

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In the Ifrit fight for example, there are opportunities for the mages to run to the PLD. My LS uses that strat when I tank on gla/pld. It's also one of the very first things I do in the fight as pld/gla.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Attack peptaru while he sleeps.

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I'm awake now, and I was going to let this die, but since you looked at my pro, tell me.... what other characters do I play? have I played? what have a i fought? how tall am i? You, like other fools who think pro is end all of information, know nothing about me.

Second, i'm glad you said Pld can do it, earlier you said it couldn't. I said long ago that warrior is easier, I already agreed to that, and suggested to those who love pld and would play it if they could, that they IN FACT CAN do everyting on Pld, they just like easy/lazy mode.

Sorry for the bump, I'll let this die regardless of response or no response.

I love PLD its very fun to play, block can be better, and the dmg blocked could be better, but i still deal with it. The only thing i think PLD need is Auto refresh. I mean they get Cnj as a sub why not let us get that trait. Auto refresh wont make PLD overpowered a in anyway.

I'm pretty sure the people who say PLD is decent never played it outside of exp/ifrit parties. The only people who should be commenting on PLD's performance are endgame players who have actually tested both WAR and PLD. I mean this is what everyone is upset over right?

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

I'm pretty sure the people who say PLD is decent never played it outside of exp/ifrit parties. The only people who should be commenting on PLD's performance are endgame players who have actually tested both WAR and PLD. I mean this is what everyone is upset over right?

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Because endgame is the only thing that matters....

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

I'm pretty sure the people who say PLD is decent never played it outside of exp/ifrit parties. The only people who should be commenting on PLD's performance are endgame players who have actually tested both WAR and PLD. I mean this is what everyone is upset over right?

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Testing them where? In what settings? With what party setup?

The same party setup for WAR will not work for PLD, as they have completely different abilities/strengths/weaknesses. If you run mana burn with a war tank, then try it with a PLD tank, the war tank will *probably* do infinitely better. Why? Because a PLD needs *support*, and it needs the presence of melee dps. Running mage heavy setups doesn't work well with PLD, because all of its awesome skills wont help at all due to mages being out of aoe range.

Imagine a PLD, with BRD support, 2 Melee DPS, and some range heals/dps. BRD comes in to apply buffs, PLD does aoe rampart on every trip he can, which would hit the brd and both melee dps for really nice enmity gain. Divine Veil is infinitely more useful since it stacks with WHM regen, which now gives all of your melees a *lot* more survivability. This means the WHM has to concentrate on less ppl, and it also means the PLD can maintain a very high enmity level from all the cures/regens/aoe rampart spams.

What ppl fail to understand is that PLD makes other melees better. If you just use a bunch of mages, you are wasting all of the PLD's talents. PLD was balanced around a diverse group, not class stacking. Yet I wonder how many ppl actually test it this way. Give that PLD bard support, add in more melee DD's, and then tell me PLD sucks at tanking.

Yeah... except no one is saying PLD SUCKS at tanking. They're just saying WAR is better as far as I can tell, which is true. They're also only talking about it in terms of end game, which is where it matters.

Don't be mad because we are right and you don't know what the hell you are talking about

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Because endgame is the only thing that matters....

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Endgame is where the hardest content in the game is... What is the point of having PLD in the game if it sucks at what it's built for :/ Once again no one cares about your crappy exp parties.

Rayna...You have not even done any of the new content so how would you know what I am talking about. I don't mean to be a bully but really go try kill chimera/miser on PLD and then switch to WAR and hit me up after(with any setup I might add).

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Originally Posted by Phobos

This. The only way they will be able to keep their PLD has less HP stupidity and have people actually use it is if they give PLD some passive magic damage mitigation.

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this x1000

true it be nice to have magic def too

PLD is still useless. Holy Succor needs to become instant-cast like Thundara or they need at least as much HP as WAR or at least as much damage as WAR or they stand no chance. Adding MP to Outmaneuver or something might help too but won't make the difference they need.

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

Endgame is where the hardest content in the game is... What is the point of having PLD in the game if it sucks at what it's built for :/ Once again no one cares about your crappy exp parties.

Rayna...You have not even done any of the new content so how would you know what I am talking about. I don't mean to be a bully but really go try kill chimera/miser on PLD and then switch to WAR and hit me up after(with any setup I might add).

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LMFAO, endgame indeed, the suposed "hardest" fight in the game is on farm mode for most LSs, there is no real challange for a party much less a tank in this game other then uber high lvl mobs. tell ya what, have 2 outa your 8 members do absoulutly nothing in Ifrit, then prioritize what you need, well obviously you need dps strong enough and fast enough to counter Ifrits regen. then you need a tank that can take a substantial amount of damage without dieing. cuz once you fill your roles, you only have one spot left for a healer. Park the propaganda, and hype, WAR is a crowd controller and a sub tank for speed runs on ridiculously easy fights. PLD is way under apreciated simply cuz there isnt a challange out there that will allow PLD to shine, everything is easy sauce. So all this ego can just deflate itself , its nothing but hype from people who THINK they have "endgame" on lock.

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Originally Posted by Aion

this x1000

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sure , its called stone skin, use it all the time , coupled with devin veil, dont take much damage at all from any fight.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

LMFAO, endgame indeed, the suposed "hardest" fight in the game is on farm mode for most LSs, there is no real challange for a party much less a tank in this game other then uber high lvl mobs. tell ya what, have 2 outa your 8 members do absoulutly nothing in Ifrit, then prioritize what you need, well obviously you need dps strong enough and fast enough to counter Ifrits regen. then you need a tank that can take a substantial amount of damage without dieing. cuz once you fill your roles, you only have one spot left for a healer. Park the propaganda, and hype, WAR is a crowd controller and a sub tank for speed runs on ridiculously easy fights. PLD is way under apreciated simply cuz there isnt a challange out there that will allow PLD to shine, everything is easy sauce. So all this ego can just deflate itself , its nothing but hype from people who THINK they have "endgame" on lock.

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You know, I recognize these words as being from the English language, but I try to string them together in my head and all that comes out is pure gibberish.

If anyone takes a step back and looks at the two jobs side-by-side, PLD is supposed to bring self-cures and mitigation to the table. WAR provides drastically higher enmity generation and a higher base HP pool. PLD, by design, addresses aspects of a fight that are not essential to address. The higher enmity generation alone is enough to set WAR apart from PLD, no matter what advantages or disadvantages one might see in either job. No matter how a fight is designed, a WAR tank allows you to get through the fight faster and in a more stable fashion.

Every boss fight in 1.21 can be done with one main healer; Myrmidon Princess/Marshal is probably the most difficult encounter to solo-heal, but that's not saying too much. If fights are designed toward PLD, that would require timed unavoidable abilities that must be mitigated through abilities or else suffer instant death, something like a single-target deathray on the character with the highest enmity with an associated countdown or charge-up. That sort of design is poor fight design, and doesn't address any kind of core issue; it only forces people to play PLD.

If enmity generation parity is reached between WAR and PLD, then the two jobs can still retain their identity and niche benefits. I would still argue that a higher base HP pool is more useful than on-demand mitigation and self-cures, but that's an argument I would prefer over the nonsense currently going on.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

sure , its called stone skin, use it all the time , coupled with devin veil, dont take much damage at all from any fight.

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problem is, you as PLD already busy with damage,keeping hate,keeping guard skills up,keeping HP up using holy succor. Then what is the difference with WAR who utilizing WHM stoneskin? as other said, PLD is good tank,but currently WAR does it better, because the playstyle is simpler. You just need to do good damage on it. boss WS also eat stoneskin easily, and WAR have 1k hp more than PLD as buffer.

CMIIW

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

LMFAO, endgame indeed, the suposed "hardest" fight in the game is on farm mode for most LSs, there is no real challange for a party much less a tank in this game other then uber high lvl mobs. tell ya what, have 2 outa your 8 members do absoulutly nothing in Ifrit, then prioritize what you need, well obviously you need dps strong enough and fast enough to counter Ifrits regen. then you need a tank that can take a substantial amount of damage without dieing. cuz once you fill your roles, you only have one spot left for a healer. Park the propaganda, and hype, WAR is a crowd controller and a sub tank for speed runs on ridiculously easy fights. PLD is way under apreciated simply cuz there isnt a challange out there that will allow PLD to shine, everything is easy sauce. So all this ego can just deflate itself , its nothing but hype from people who THINK they have "endgame" on lock.

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Once again someone who has NOT done any of the new content. But really thanks for your input on something you know nothing about!

its better cuz its dummy proof? ok that = nonsense. but w/e to each their own.

@Carraway I have said it from first day PLD was released "Paladin needs a bigger HP pool". I always hoped that Paladin would be the safest way of tanking and then MRD/WAR 2nd once you got used to the fight. PLD right now is just to sketchy to rely on as a main tank, you could argue that PLD gets self cure and what not but that really is no good when you get interrupted trying to self cure at 10% HP. At least in FFXI you could stack shield skill and hope for a block while casting.

PLD should have buff that "Reduce damage taken when engaged by single enemy" / "Increase damage when engaged by single enemy"

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

@Carraway I have said it from first day PLD was released "Paladin needs a bigger HP pool". I always hoped that Paladin would be the safest way of tanking and then MRD/WAR 2nd once you got used to the fight. PLD right now is just to sketchy to rely on as a main tank, you could argue that PLD gets self cure and what not but that really is no good when you get interrupted trying to self cure at 10% HP. At least in FFXI you could stack shield skill and hope for a block while casting.

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Yea this is what I think too, PLD should be the 1st choice of tank job. Because players leveling GLA, they expect to be able tank endgame stuff. The playstyle should be simpler/safer than WAR tanking

I agree; if nothing else, at least bring it within 200-300 HP of WAR's base, instead of the huge gap that exists now.

I hope SE will take notice in this matter seriously,because they must be super careful on how they design their content. WAR should be excel on multiple target situation while PLD should be first choice on endgame boss