When Suzaku Ex came out one of our PF healers didn't know about heal LB3 :/Quote:
Originally Posted by LalaRu
New Mentor requirements
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10-11-2019, 06:16 PMRoyalBeef
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10-11-2019, 06:18 PMGaleniniQuote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
Or, they could use a channel in-game and have a discussion within their own community with known mentors, many who will delve gear and abilities for others to see/read. -
10-11-2019, 06:20 PMGaleniniQuote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
That's actually not surprising. I've seen that discussion with folks in NN way past levels they could have been using it. Ditto esuna. Yup, even that. -
10-11-2019, 06:26 PMBewhateverThere's more than that. To embarass myself, I got through all of ARR (main as healer) 4 years ago without fully grasping how off GCD abilities could be woven with on GCD ones. Oops. For all FF leads you, one at a time, through nearly every aspect of gameplay and every mechanic you will encounter later, somehow I missed that one. That's way more advanced than these questions, but it's still a basic thing which should be mastered before attempting any of the level 50 dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by LalaRu
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10-11-2019, 07:04 PMHalivelI weirdly had Sprout 2nd Tank on Seiryu Ex when it was releazed (which I can't comprehend tbh. Shouldn't you lose sprout status earlier than this?) so I am not even really surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
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10-11-2019, 07:39 PMTalithaSolarienSprout status is also linked to a certain amount of playtime. If you rushed through the story it was easy to reach Stormblood and still have the sprout. I've seen quite a few players doing that, esp. on alts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Halivel
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10-11-2019, 07:59 PMHalivelI remember there was a thing like "if you reach an X point in the MSQ you lose Sprout status" earlier. They removed it?Quote:
Originally Posted by TalithaSolarien
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10-11-2019, 08:22 PMJohnSpawnVFXOr they can use an already organized and established channel which allows discussion with all kinds of knowledgeable players, read any of the posted guides and tips and even organize any kind of run with even support for voice chat during the run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galenini
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10-11-2019, 10:12 PMPyurBlueI've already mentored Savage/EX. It's like mentoring anything else. Skill is also a spectrum, there is more than being perfect and not knowing what you're doing. Some players are OK, but just haven't tried the game's difficult content yet. You don't have to clear either. The goal would be to help players improve, even if it's a 2 hour wipe session.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
I don't think there is anything wrong with a level 80 sprout. If you're new to level 80, you're new to level 80. Clearing level 50 doesn't mean that you understand normal raids (start at 60), it means you may not have ever heard of savage, it means your only Alliance raids are the level 50 ones that you can clear while AFK, you would only be familiar with poetics (and even then not necessarily, many level 50's in NN don't know how to best gear up) and not the current tomes and their caps, stats matter much less, etc. If someone is new to level 80 they should have that sprout icon because chances are they will show it.Quote:
Spouts also need to be redefined, as I feel it's a problem that a person can be a sprout with multiple level 80s. Being a sprout should END at level 50 or once you complete ARR, not once you complete SB.
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10-12-2019, 01:16 AMRyuSaarvaI have cleared extreme primals countless times with full new player parties who did not even know what skills like provoke do, the only time you cannot clear them is when people don't understand your language or they simply do not try and rage quit after 1 or 2 times.....you just need to mentor and not rage quit yourself when you get any harder fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
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10-12-2019, 02:05 AMKimstar
Yeah well so once again, the Mentor isn't hard to get, just tedious and time consuming, because you're basically put between a rock and a hard place. If you're DPS main you have to switch over to Tank/Heal to even have a chance at getting comms. Mentor status needs a serious rework from the ground up to be valuable.
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10-12-2019, 03:25 AMKsenia
Stop kicking sprouts based on some arbitrary milestone. Very few Sprouts who get booted wanted to leave Nov channel and there was even a guy on Exodus who made linkshells for outcast sprouts. It didn't work out simply because they weren't official and it got messy with people coming and going but the long and the short, if a sprout wants to stay, until we see sprout numbers reaching remotely close to cap (not happening, never has) it's not an issue.
So much attention placed on Mentor. The channel wasn't set up for Mentors, it was set up for Sprouts. -
10-12-2019, 06:02 AMHash_BrownsNew =/= max levelQuote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
Once you hit in the level 50 area you should have a basic understanding of the game, and its controls. if you don't that means one of two things are happening: Either SE didn't put enough time into teaching players the basics, or said player didn't put enough time into learning them. I understand people rush headfirst into the story, but mentors shouldn't be there to pick up the slack, that's not what a mentor should be. A mentor isn't there to help people who have divebombed into harder content, or to help people too lazy to learn.
Binding Coils start at level 50, do they not?Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
Mentors shouldn't be mentoring savage content though, and telling sprouts about weekly caps in ShB, and Phantasmagoria shouldn't really be a thing either - because by the time they get to those, guess what - they aren't sprouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
Once you step foot into ShB you are no longer a spout, but as long as you don't you can be with multiple level 80s.
People seem to widely think that a mentor should be the best of the best, teaching spouts the very end game - that's not what the system is for..
Waht should be happening if that Mentors should be helping sprouts learn the very basics of the game - like the controls, hotbars, limitbreaking, etc. -
10-12-2019, 06:28 AMGaleniniThe two are not mutually exclusive. Win for the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
Please note: I have nothing personally invested in the notion either way, just putting it out there for consideration.
Your points are valid. ^_^ (As long as "new" players know it's there. I have only seen it mentioned twice in game.) -
10-12-2019, 06:49 AMPyurBlueNew is being new to something. If you only turned level 80, you're new to 80. If you turned 80 at the beginning of Shadowbringers and then leave the game for a year, you'd be new to the current endgame. Don't forget that returns are part of the mentor system. Any level from 1 to cap is appropriate for the mentor system and NN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
I understand what you're trying to say I think, but it doesn't actually mesh with the way the game is designed and I personally disagree with it. Mentors shouldn't be limited assisting players fresh into ARR. There is a role for them to fill at any level of competency.
Level 50 isn't even half the game. It doesn't matter how you got there, or how fast. You will not know everything. You won't know everything even if you practiced to master everything that the game has thrown at you up to that point. A mentor is someone willing to help other players, there is no reason that has to stop at an arbitrary level.Quote:
Once you hit in the level 50 area you should have a basic understanding of the game, and its controls. if you don't that means one of two things are happening: Either SE didn't put enough time into teaching players the basics, or said player didn't put enough time into learning them. I understand people rush headfirst into the story, but mentors shouldn't be there to pick up the slack, that's not what a mentor should be. A mentor isn't there to help people who have divebombed into harder content, or to help people too lazy to learn.
Speaking of how one gets to 50 though, it could happen over a long period of time and not in one go. During breaks, players can forget how the game works. It's perfectly within reason to find some level 50 or higher players who can't grasp the basics. Some of these players might have simply been away from the game for months or years.
They're also excluded from the normal raid roulette, making it far less likely for new players to successfully queue in. Players don't have much incentive to participate in normal raids until they reach the end game anyway, raids could potentially be new to a player right up to the level cap.Quote:
Binding Coils start at level 50, do they not?
That's at odds with how the game works. You can be a level 80 sprout, or a returner, which are as much a part of the mentor system as sprouts. There is also nothing suggesting that the mentor system stops before savage. The entire system as it is now is free form. If mentors want to mentor content, they will. I don't mentor endgame out of obligation, I do it because I enjoy it and I like to help other players. Savage comes up less in the NN than other topics, but players do have questions about it. It would be silly to ignore those questions.Quote:
Mentors shouldn't be mentoring savage content though, and telling sprouts about weekly caps in ShB, and Phantasmagoria shouldn't really be a thing either - because by the time they get to those, guess what - they aren't sprouts.
Losing sprout status requires a week of playtime on top of the completion of SB MSQ, and even then you can gain returner status at any time. Once you accept returner status, you are automatically placed in the NN.Quote:
Once you step foot into ShB you are no longer a spout, but as long as you don't you can be with multiple level 80s.
The mentor system is community self help, nothing more and nothing less. Mentors don't have to be exceptionally good, but at the same time there isn't anything that limits what they subjects they can provide advice on. What the system is for is actually pretty vaguely defined, and I think that's a good thing. A lot of the problems that people point out tend to come from them projecting their own ideas onto mentorship and the NN. That's not to say that those people have bad ideas, but mentor system needs to be accepted for what it is if we're going to get into discussions about how it "should" function.Quote:
People seem to widely think that a mentor should be the best of the best, teaching spouts the very end game - that's not what the system is for..
Why? This just limits the usefulness of mentors. If someone asks in NN for bis gear or savage tips, surely they shouldn't be ignored? Why would giving advice to players be unwelcome in the NN?Quote:
Waht should be happening if that Mentors should be helping sprouts learn the very basics of the game - like the controls, hotbars, limitbreaking, etc.
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10-12-2019, 07:23 AMHash_BrownsActually it does. Savage content isn't included in the Mentor Roulette, and isn't required for it as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
If people don't know things like how to LB3 as a healer.. I'm not even going to take a chance at teaching them how to do stuff like this:
https://i.imgur.com/HG8mq9P.png
https://i.imgur.com/ruzwoda.png
(mind you these macros are probably old now, because they are from near titans release)
Savage includes content that needs to be learned over a period of time for those who aren't use to it. You can't just go in and clear it without knowing what you are getting into, even if you have watched a guide, and know what's coming.
This is how bad advice starts infecting the community, like healers not DPSing. Bad mentors giving bad advice to bad or new players, making sure that they stay bad players.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
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10-12-2019, 07:55 AMPyurBlueYou're not making much sense. Why do new NN players not know how to use LB by default? They could know the basics but not savage. Also Mentor Roulette isn't required for Mentor in the first place, it's not really relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
Which makes NN great for it. The players in it are there for a long time. Like I said before though, mentoring savage isn't about clears. It's about helping people learn the fight. I don't go into practice PF's expecting clears. I go in expecting wipes.Quote:
Savage includes content that needs to be learned over a period of time for those who aren't use to it. You can't just go in and clear it without knowing what you are getting into, even if you have watched a guide, and know what's coming.
What bad advice? You're sort of implying that if someone has savage questions in NN, they shouldn't be given advice. Telling people how endgame works is far, far away from bad advice.Quote:
This is how bad advice starts infecting the community, like healers not DPSing. Bad mentors giving bad advice to bad or new players, making sure that they stay bad players.
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10-12-2019, 08:11 AMHash_BrownsI'm using LBing as an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
You aren't going to get much practice. You would learn almost nothing.
Savage content & the NN shouldn't be together at all. You shouldn't be asking for theory crafting information in the NN. A tiny % of the community clears savage. If savage advice is going to be handed there, savage then should be a requirement, not just to hand out the adivce, but also to be a PvE mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
I can't wait to go into my NN and ask for Ultimate advice though. That makes sense.
The problem here is that both of us aren't in agreement on what a novice is, or what a mentor is..
You seem to think mentoring shouldn't require being all the great a player, but it's ok to mentor savage content. As it stands right now mentors have a bad stigma due to how easy it is to become a mentor, which is why savage, ultimate, EX, and mentors shouldn't mix.
The normal content for the story? perfect. It's easy to teach. Mistakes don't mean you can't clear, and it's fun - but once you cross that threshold where "if you don't do this = party wipe," ya - newer players shouldn't be doing that. -
10-12-2019, 08:46 AMHyperiusUltimaBasically Nidhogg, Tsukuyomi, Shinryu...pretty much a good bit of the Stormblood Primals that enforce that which are mandatory. Also in Shadowbringers, Innocence doesn't play around since he has an enrage timer at his Add Phase. Regardless, even the Shadowbringers final boss(not going to say here because SPOILERS) has some stuff people need to pay attention to. As for dungeons, I want to say that most dungeons aren't really a threat, but also newer players are going to struggle a LOT after Ghimlyt Dark considering the difficulty spike for those unprepared or don't know what they're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
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10-13-2019, 12:54 AMPyurBlueAn example to make a point right? I'm responding to the point, I'm not particularly interested in LB outside of the fact that you brought it up as your example. Why are people asking questions in the NN at the level where [they don't understand LB] by default? That isn't necessarily true. People with raiding experience end up in NN as novices sometimes under the returner tag. Novice encompasses a wide range of skill levels and in game experience. This means that raid discussions in NN don't have to be anything like explaining Savage mechanics to level 15's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
It's no different from a practice party in the PF, except there might be more chance of the same group trying again. At the very least it's better than just watching a guide and getting no practice.Quote:
You aren't going to get much practice. You would learn almost nothing.
Let's get back to the question I was asking. If a player in NN asks for raid advice, and there is a qualified mentor in NN who can provide an answer, what should happen? Should that player be ignored? Trying to keep raid discussions out of NN might not even be feasible. The qualification requirement is also kind of self imposed. People who don't raid usually don't answer those questions, although it's true that bad advice may sometimes slip through.Quote:
Savage content & the NN shouldn't be together at all. You shouldn't be asking for theory crafting information in the NN. A tiny % of the community clears savage. If savage advice is going to be handed there, savage then should be a requirement, not just to hand out the adivce, but also to be a PvE mentor.
No it doesn't. It's more like someone finds their way into NN, and while there they progress to the point of asking questions on high end content over time.Quote:
I can't wait to go into my NN and ask for Ultimate advice though. That makes sense.
Mentor and novice have definitions in the game already though. You're saying a novice can't exist past level 50. The game says they can. The mentor system is free form, like I said before. It's fine to have ideas on how to improve it, but it works a certain way already.Quote:
The problem here is that both of us aren't in agreement on what a novice is, or what a mentor is..
You seem to think mentoring shouldn't require being all the great a player, but it's ok to mentor savage content. As it stands right now mentors have a bad stigma due to how easy it is to become a mentor, which is why savage, ultimate, EX, and mentors shouldn't mix.
You don't need to get to the endgame to reach that point.Quote:
The normal content for the story? perfect. It's easy to teach. Mistakes don't mean you can't clear, and it's fun - but once you cross that threshold where "if you don't do this = party wipe," ya - newer players shouldn't be doing that.
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10-13-2019, 05:24 AMSturmChurro
I skimmed through the past few pages. Like I said in my post before, a high level mentor would be useless. Novice Network is definitely not the place to be asking about savage raiding, or high tier PvE advice. For one, it would require too much chat, and would also probably require hands on experience, or visual guides (videos). This tier of difficulty is even difficult to guide players in PUGS, and still would require voice (discord) most optimally, and what I listed before. Purely In-game means of teaching is inefficient.
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10-13-2019, 10:49 PMPyurBlueJust keep in mind that they already exist and have proven useful. Not every mentor would be able to fill the role, but useless is exaggeration without a doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
As for this, using NN as a party chat for savage practice groups is a terrible idea, but the mentor system doesn't prevent you from using discord or any other resources. Not every savage related question is going to require a written guide as an answer anyway.Quote:
Novice Network is definitely not the place to be asking about savage raiding, or high tier PvE advice. For one, it would require too much chat, and would also probably require hands on experience, or visual guides (videos). This tier of difficulty is even difficult to guide players in PUGS, and still would require voice (discord) most optimally, and what I listed before. Purely In-game means of teaching is inefficient.
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10-14-2019, 01:16 AMAvidriaSooo... why not add a 750 or 1000 comm achievement? Seems like it should be an easy enough solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi
To the topic in general, this is a pretty significant change for... reasons that I'm struggling to grasp. I myself comm for funny names about as often as I do for skill (usually if there just wasn't much else that stood out in the group to commend), and I've had more than a few runs that were so frustrating or painful to get through that I noped out at the end with zero comms given. I know for a fact I'm not the only one. I've also been in a fair number of runs like the one where I was healing and ressing my butt off, literally helped save the group from a wipe, all while my co-healer was effectively sitting around (yes, cast another stone as half the group dies, very good friend)... and got zero comms.
Comms just aren't a good measure of helpfulness... more a measure of time invested and luck (and maybe style :P) than anything. -
10-14-2019, 01:25 AMRenka777
i personally don't care,as long i get acces to the meme..."newbie" chat :^) it's good (which is why i got the mentor role)