The idea that we need to DPS must go.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I really don't understand where this "healers ONLY heal" mindset even comes from. The only game I can even think of that actually has healers function like that is Everquest, but like, every other RPG I've ever seen had support characters flex between offense and defense.
- Literally every Final Fantasy
- Every Persona
- Pokemon (Chansey almost always carries Seismic Toss)
- Fire Emblem, many priests begin only being able to use staves but promote to using offensive magic.
- WoW
- Dofus/Wakfu
- Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross
- Dungeons and Dragons
- Every Dragon Quest
- Every Star Ocean
- Every .Hack
- Every Tales of (In the earlier games, you typically do have 1 main healer who is mostly busy managing HP, but they also weave in offensive spells).
- Every Xenoblade and Xenosaga

Like seriously... what RPGs have characters that only ever heal throughout the entire game?

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as far as I know....that star wars mmorpg, I had a mate tell me that when he was healing in a raid, they started yelling at him for doing damage. and this wasn't a DUDE YOU'RE NOT HEALING situation, it was a, "Damn, everyone is full hp and im standing here doing nothing, maybe i'll dps" moment.

Necromance if you want to
We can bring your friends threads to life
But your friends threads aren't dead,
And if they aren't dead,
Then they're no friends threads of mine

But uh... the requisite meme now deployed, where did healers get the idea they're not supposed to DPS? It's been expected of them since at least the First Coil of Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Avenheit

as far as I know....that star wars mmorpg, I had a mate tell me that when he was healing in a raid, they started yelling at him for doing damage. and this wasn't a DUDE YOU'RE NOT HEALING situation, it was a, "Damn, everyone is full hp and im standing here doing nothing, maybe i'll dps" moment.

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If you are talking about the Swtor, absolutely not. Healers deeps in Swtor all the darn time, at the least I did. The game even encourages this based upon certain abilities or tactical healers gain access too.

Example; Storm’s Succor

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Damaging an enemy with Volt Rush causes your ally closest to the enemy to be healed, scaling with how many Energized charges you have

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This modifies Sage/Sorcerer nuke spell, it has three charges. Each charge consumes additional force energy (manana) while doing additional damage per successive hit, also healing more per additional hit.

Your friend was dealing with stoopids.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

If you are talking about the Swtor, absolutely not. Healers deeps in Swtor all the darn time, at the least I did. The game even encourages this based upon certain abilities or tactical healers gain access too.

Example; Storm’s Succor


This modifies Sage/Sorcerer nuke spell, it has three charges. Each charge consumes additional force energy (manana) while doing additional damage per successive hit, also healing more per additional hit.

Your friend was dealing with stoopids.

---

Agreed. I dropped SWTOR a while ago, however when I was playing my Sage on the Republic side I had the choice of 3 specs, one more heals focussed, one that was more of a dot spec, one that was a lightning spec. So 2 more DPS focussed specs that gave FAR more than 1, 2, 3 as our options and depending upon the spec also affected mobility, etc.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Agreed. I dropped SWTOR a while ago, however when I was playing my Sage on the Republic side I had the choice of 3 specs, one more heals focussed, one that was more of a dot spec, one that was a lightning spec. So 2 more DPS focussed specs that gave FAR more than 1, 2, 3 as our options and depending upon the spec also affected mobility, etc.

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That was my main! The "weakest healer" according to everyone who would always wish for me to switch to merc or operative. Never had issues finding time to deeps on the "weakest healer" not once and Swtor healing requirements make FF14 look like babies first mmo. Would recommend others attempt Gods from the machine on non story mode. Would looooooove to see FF14 party finder tackle the interrupt phase on final boss. Did I mention most/all healing in Swtorland is gcd? Still had time to deeps!

Add on the ridiculous request to add “more DPS to healers” yes we we need more of a damage kit but no it shouldn’t overshadow the point of healing, and content is so mild half the time healers are irrelevant and are just twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to get a invul, outside of savage it’s much worse

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I really don't understand where this "healers ONLY heal" mindset even comes from. The only game I can even think of that actually has healers function like that is Everquest, but like, every other RPG I've ever seen had support characters flex between offense and defense.
- Literally every Final Fantasy
- Every Persona
- Pokemon (Chansey almost always carries Seismic Toss)
- Fire Emblem, many priests begin only being able to use staves but promote to using offensive magic.
- WoW
- Dofus/Wakfu
- Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross
- Dungeons and Dragons
- Every Dragon Quest
- Every Star Ocean
- Every .Hack
- Every Tales of (In the earlier games, you typically do have 1 main healer who is mostly busy managing HP, but they also weave in offensive spells).
- Every Xenoblade and Xenosaga

Like seriously... what RPGs have characters that only ever heal throughout the entire game?

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Eden Eternal was another one of thoes games with good healers that also dps. They had Cleric, Bard, Shaman, and sage. Each class felt so colorful, unique, and had distinctly different playstyles, it made healers feel good to play, not to mention they were healing BEASTS!

man i miss that game.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

If you are talking about the Swtor, absolutely not. Healers deeps in Swtor all the darn time, at the least I did. The game even encourages this based upon certain abilities or tactical healers gain access too.

Example; Storm’s Succor


This modifies Sage/Sorcerer nuke spell, it has three charges. Each charge consumes additional force energy (manana) while doing additional damage per successive hit, also healing more per additional hit.

Your friend was dealing with stoopids.

---

it's possible they were talking about Star Wars Galaxies

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The only game I can even think of that actually has healers function like that is Everquest

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Bit late to the party but even Everquest wasn't in the healers only heal camp.

As a very well geared Shaman main for the era I played, if it didn't death touch or flurry me to death in the space of a cast, I could probably kill it given time. My server generally had a pretty good habit of not KSing small teams on raids and thanks to this I solo'd quite a few named Velious dragons, planar bosses, epic quest lines culminating in the point where I would routinely 'reserve' and start clearing PoGrowth solo which at the time no other class could do because of the then CC immune warders. For farming AAs I just grabbed whomever and adapted, I could pull, I could heal, I could tank (And hold solid agro off just about anyone who wasn't an SK), I could CC.

Druids weren't quite as extreme in what they could solo, but generally if they could snare/root it, it was farm status if it didn't death touch. Clerics were the closest to a heal only healer even if my guild's hammer wielding blue dorf army would have you think otherwise.

WoW is probably the main culprit of this mentality I guess. It's not that heal specced healers can't deal damage (I ran Ele/Resto Shaman in vanilla/bc and it generally took a decent level of coordination to get a handle on my antics in PvP), but rather it just wasn't worthwhile at least back when I played. But this wasn't at the expense of us doing anything else. Early on we were spam casting low level heals to stay efficient for longer encounters, at other points we were often handling various forms of CC or buffing/debuffing.

I'd have absolutely no problem if FFXIV flipped to a model where healers actually needed to *properly* focus on healing, but the people that keep screeching this never seem to understand that as things are, it would be truly horrific if this happened right now without some sweeping changes to accompany it. Once you start playing in a manner that's GCD efficient, you spend remarkably few GCDs actually healing. Take the filler in between these bursts of HPS away and currently we are left with almost nothing.

SE made all healer CC completely worthless

We have very little debuffing left in our kits

Our utility is currently pretty much limited to 'bursts' every 2 minutes be that a legitimate burst on AST or simply pressing a button as anyone else

So I propose to anyone who still feels to need to tell us that we need to stop DPSing. Tell us: What do we do instead?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Bit late to the party but even Everquest wasn't in the healers only heal camp.

As a very well geared Shaman main for the era I played, if it didn't death touch or flurry me to death in the space of a cast, I could probably kill it given time. My server generally had a pretty good habit of not KSing small teams on raids and thanks to this I solo'd quite a few named Velious dragons, planar bosses, epic quest lines culminating in the point where I would routinely 'reserve' and start clearing PoGrowth solo which at the time no other class could do because of the then CC immune warders. For farming AAs I just grabbed whomever and adapted, I could pull, I could heal, I could tank (And hold solid agro off just about anyone who wasn't an SK), I could CC.

Druids weren't quite as extreme in what they could solo, but generally if they could snare/root it, it was farm status if it didn't death touch. Clerics were the closest to a heal only healer even if my guild's hammer wielding blue dorf army would have you think otherwise.

WoW is probably the main culprit of this mentality I guess. It's not that heal specced healers can't deal damage (I ran Ele/Resto Shaman in vanilla/bc and it generally took a decent level of coordination to get a handle on my antics in PvP), but rather it just wasn't worthwhile at least back when I played. But this wasn't at the expense of us doing anything else. Early on we were spam casting low level heals to stay efficient for longer encounters, at other points we were often handling various forms of CC or buffing/debuffing.

I'd have absolutely no problem if FFXIV flipped to a model where healers actually needed to *properly* focus on healing, but the people that keep screeching this never seem to understand that as things are, it would be truly horrific if this happened right now without some sweeping changes to accompany it. Once you start playing in a manner that's GCD efficient, you spend remarkably few GCDs actually healing. Take the filler in between these bursts of HPS away and currently we are left with almost nothing.

SE made all healer CC completely worthless

We have very little debuffing left in our kits

Our utility is currently pretty much limited to 'bursts' every 2 minutes be that a legitimate burst on AST or simply pressing a button as anyone else

So I propose to anyone who still feels to need to tell us that we need to stop DPSing. Tell us: What do we do instead?

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The people pitching for the death of healer DPS would just tell you to "heal instead." Whatever that actually is meant to mean.

I don't think everyone is saying to stop DPSing. They need to stop trying so hard, melding Direct Hit. Every single time I see a healer that can't keep people up in base content, I examine and find direct hit.

I just saw a white mage in Smileton ask the SMN to run their Regen because the tank is taking a lot of hits.

It might help in raids, but have the good sense to keep a set of gear for running dungeons, where there are a lot more hits going to the tank.

Direct Hit materia doesn't kill tanks in dungeons. Lack of defensive cooldowns and bad healers kill tanks in dungeons. Healing abilities restore so much of a tank's maximum HP it would take far more than a few melds to make the difference between needing to use one healing ability versus two.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Direct Hit materia doesn't kill tanks in dungeons. Lack of defensive cooldowns and bad healers kill tanks in dungeons. Healing abilities restore so much of a tank's maximum HP it would take far more than a few melds to make the difference between needing to use one healing ability versus two.

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It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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Another person trying to claim that Determination's healing boost is somehow essential to running dungeons?

I could meld no Determination or Piety at all, and healing dungeons would still be trivial. Determination adds a negligible amount of additional HPS. It's not going to turn two heals into one heal, so the healing aspect of Determination doesn't really increase DPS. Maybe, maybe on a blue moon, it might leave a DPS who steps in avoidable mechanics at magic pixel.

Furthermore, if Determination actually had a major influence on healing potency, then that would just encourage good healers to wait even longer to heal, in order to avoid overhealing. Which would do nothing about tanks getting nervous or self-conscious about being at sub-X% of max HP.

Meanwhile, Direct Hit still grants a slight edge over Determination in killing things faster, which speeds up runs and decreases incoming damage (dead mobs do no damage).

There are three reasons why Direct Hit is better than Determination. One is the fact Direct Hit scales faster now with all the stat squish even with the buffs to Determination this expansion. Two, direct hit pars well with Crit with the results of CDH so it would be better to to meld Direct Hit. And Three, the extra healing from it is minuscule like others have said.

So ya, for all those reasons, Direct Hit will always be better to meld over Determination with that in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I don't think everyone is saying to stop DPSing. They need to stop trying so hard, melding Direct Hit. Every single time I see a healer that can't keep people up in base content, I examine and find direct hit.

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Even if determination and/or piety have melds combination for a 100% boost in healing potencies, bad healers will still kill their tanks. Materia melds does not matter in the situation you're speaking of. Even lesser so because the actual potency boost is so pathetic & you're not going to meld 100% determination either because there's critical melds (means even melding slots goes to determination). At 2.6k determination the healing boost is only as high as 16.9% and you're not likely to reach that number realistically especially in normal contents, bringing the actual boost you get from determination even lower than that number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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If this were to happen, here comes the new low/stupid: "Since Solace now heals an equivalent of 1500 potency, now let's make the tank drop lower in health! Then I'll ca-... OOPS, I misjudged :( too late...". Ain't that make even more tanks more self-conscious? Very counterproductive I'd say.

There's a difference between bad gameplay and bad gearing. That story of yours is definitely the former specifically, not the latter.

EDIT: using my own character as a dummy... my current gear puts me at 1661 determination which is about 9.3% increase in healing potency. This is without determination melds at all. Now if I were to replace all my DH melds with determinations, I'll get extra 10 X materias of determinations, bumping my determination to 2021 which translates to... a total of 12% increase in healing potency? Wow, a 2.7% increase. That's a lot... wasted potential that I could've gained from melding other stats. Should I replace all my critical melds for determinations too??? Yikes...:rolleyes:

If said healing potency melds cannot reduce the amount of healing I need to cast to resolve healing required, then it's as good as dead stat. We probably only care about determination unlike piety because it at least still have damage increase component to be any use to us, the healing potency is an extra fluff.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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You can clear Expert dungeons with no materia melded and still sleep through half the runtime. It's not the boogeyman Direct Hit materia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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Why don't you try backing up your claim. Show us some failed dungeon runs of ilvl 570-600 healers melding CH and DH. Videos or logs will do. If it's such a rampant problem that's ruining the game as we know it, then you should be able to find numerous examples, as anyone would easily be capable of doing when trying to prove a hypothesis of a very real problem in need of resolution.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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Even if it was a wasted slot, so what? All dungeons are doable without a single meld.
That was the case before and after the stat squish so what are you on about.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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You are still winging about this? Really? Ugh now you are in the white mage thread wigging out about lilies.. Really really hope you are bad troll and not some trog suffering from aggressive Dunning Kruger.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why don't you try backing up your claim. Show us some failed dungeon runs of ilvl 570-600 healers melding CH and DH. Videos or logs will do. If it's such a rampant problem that's ruining the game as we know it, then you should be able to find numerous examples, as anyone would easily be capable of doing when trying to prove a hypothesis of a very real problem in need of resolution.

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That will never occur. They appear to be one of those players that doth not see 100% Medica 2 uptime and reeeeeees into the sunset. *snort* I only died because the healers were not healing me. *snorts again and proceeds to take the orange out on date*.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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I disagree. You know how people struggled learning SGE early on because of how their healing worked? It's different. You have to realize that despite all the Direct Hit Melds for damage, people(except WHM) have the MP economy and the capability of executing to be able to pull this off. If people are having a hard time healing in your case, then I don't think we can blame the idea of that mindset when all we're doing when we don't need to heal is Pressing One or Two Buttons over and over.

Also, that DRK only feels self-conscious because DRK's job is in the gutter due to the fact that they have the ONLY Invuln that will kill them. That, and probably just how the job feels to play. A lot of DRKs dislike how current DRK is given all the bells and whistles that PLD, WAR, and GNB got this expac that made sense - but DRK didn't.

Perhaps try taking this discussion to people who are dealing with DRK doing high damage, but have TBN that doesn't measure up to other jobs' short term mitigation.

That aside, I can vouch for SCH and AST being able to do close to or at 0 Piety(I do this myself on SGE) on Gear because they have more than enough tools to handle incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I don't think everyone is saying to stop DPSing. They need to stop trying so hard, melding Direct Hit. Every single time I see a healer that can't keep people up in base content, I examine and find direct hit.

I just saw a white mage in Smileton ask the SMN to run their Regen because the tank is taking a lot of hits.

It might help in raids, but have the good sense to keep a set of gear for running dungeons, where there are a lot more hits going to the tank.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's a wasted slot. It actually does kill tanks and groups in general, as I noted above. You can do more DPS when heals / shields land for higher values. It's as simple as that. The mindset where people feel lacking in DPS on their -healer- job is killing people. It's also making tanks feel self-conscious. I had another dungeon start with a DRK apologizing for playing that class and they were actually good.

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Majority of the people do not play ANY dungeons on minimum item level, therefore you should never see a person die even if they have ZERO meld on the healer...

I see tanks die when people dps too hard or when healers are truly new to their job and don't know what abilities to use. I died today on Holminster Switch and I actually blame myself as a tank. We had a sage. I knew exactly that they are leveling and i did run that specific dungeon myself to level my sage. And the first couple of runs I could not keep my tank alive. Not because of my gear but because I had no clue about my job.

Easy solution for ya: TALK to your teammates. If you are new and feel you cannot heal enough, tell your tank to go slower. Duh!

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

Majority of the people do not play ANY dungeons on minimum item level, therefore you should never see a person die even if they have ZERO meld on the healer...

I see tanks die when people dps too hard or when healers are truly new to their job and don't know what abilities to use. I died today on Holminster Switch and I actually blame myself as a tank. We had a sage. I knew exactly that they are leveling and i did run that specific dungeon myself to level my sage. And the first couple of runs I could not keep my tank alive. Not because of my gear but because I had no clue about my job.

Easy solution for ya: TALK to your teammates. If you are new and feel you cannot heal enough, tell your tank to go slower. Duh!

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And to expand on this, the community's general inability to type a sentence in chat is not a flaw of game balance or game design.

The order that I prioritize materia in for any job is Critical Hit, Direct Hit, and then Determination with almost no exceptions.

Yes, I use Direct Hit materia on healer jobs, since I like to attack as a healer too, not constantly overheal everyone during periods where all they have is a paper cut after already being topped up. And as a Sage, if the tank already has nearly full health and active shields, then it’s a good thing that my attacks also slightly heal them too, right? Sage spells like Kardia and Soteria actually encourage attacks.

No, I’m not going to stop melding Direct Hit materia because of someone else’s subjective philosophy (that’s not supported by the current gameplay implementation) that healers should rarely if ever deal damage; that’s not consistently backed by the current system implementation for many instances, especially as item levels increase later.

I see some better responses on this page. Cheers for the civility.

For those that feel i've trolled and ignored, welcome to what it feels like to talk about one thing and be completely ignored and misinterpreted. If you actually responded to what I said more like these folks rather than trying to spit numbers at me, when I've already acknowledged them and their use in certain situations.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

The order that I prioritize materia in for any job is Critical Hit, Direct Hit, and then Determination with almost no exceptions.

Yes, I use Direct Hit materia on healer jobs, since I like to attack as a healer too, not constantly overheal everyone during periods where all they have is a paper cut after already being topped up. And as a Sage, if the tank already has nearly full health and active shields, then it’s a good thing that my attacks also slightly heal them too, right? Sage spells like Kardia and Soteria actually encourage attacks.

No, I’m not going to stop melding Direct Hit materia because of someone else’s subjective philosophy (that’s not supported by the current gameplay implementation) that healers should rarely if ever deal damage; that’s not consistently backed by the current system implementation for many instances, especially as item levels increase later.

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You say my idea isn't supported, but what happens when you sync down?
Tell me what stats show when you set up your resistance weapon.

Right and right.

Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You say my idea isn't supported, but what happens when you sync down?

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When you sync down you don't have any materia equipped, it gets completely ignored So even if you went DET Materia it'd vanish upon syncing.
Not sure how that helps your case since pretty much the biggest counterargument to your DH vendetta is that Materia isn't even required to clear dungeons even on min ilvl.

I really do not understand how this keeps being brought up. Healing in this game is easy. If you want to sit around doing nothing when you have no HP to restore then are you actually playing the game? Or are you wasting you party members time.

I do not think the whiners here even understand what would happen if no nuking in groups became a thing. The whole way the game is designed would have to change. No scripted fights, higher and more random damage being tossed out. It would essentially require every fight being redesigned.

I am also doubting that this would even make healing better. Seems more stressful to me at worst and boring at the best of times. I remember playing a cleric back in EQ which is the "Pure Healer" people seem to want. One of the most boring jobs to play but always in high demand because not many wanted to play the class.

I would settle for a healing kit prune and 2 to 3 more damage abilities. But chances are we will just be ignored like always.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You say my idea isn't supported, but what happens when you sync down?
Tell me what stats show when you set up your resistance weapon.

Right and right.

Have a nice day.

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Here’s what happens to your gears when you get synced:
• Materia melds are ignored, flat. They do 0 benefit to you. Currently only ‘Expert’ dungeons that doesn’t do this to us, but eventually once they implement 6.x dungeons these will also invalidates our melds. And if you know anything about these dungeons at all, they’re hilariously undertuned in term of healing required, so much you can be wearing minimum ilv gear without melds as a healer & still largely able to overheal. If our tank is good? Our Cure II button will feel lucky if they even get 1 press in a whole run.
• Substats still counts. The numbers are however synced down to dungeon’s max ilv value. This means in lower lv dungeons where our current ilv greatly outweight the dungeon’s ilv, we can have both our primary and secondary substat at max value. What do vet healers mostly love to pick from their gears? That’s rights: Crit & Det. Sps too sometimes, all the while ignoring Piety (WHM needs some piety in their BiS AFAIR). What you end up is a healer with bloated Crit/Det, some sps, and lower piety.

Still very largely unconvinced by your idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You say my idea isn't supported, but what happens when you sync down?
Tell me what stats show when you set up your resistance weapon.

Right and right.

Have a nice day.

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I was referring to the current overall combat across most instanced and noninstanced content as a whole, not what option the developers give for one particular stat selection mechanic. As for your first thing, other people here already addressed that.

The reason I started maining sage after getting past the massive learning curve was because I have MORE damage options. It's actually interesting to play.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Unlike in many other MMO, XIV healers dps actually makes up a respectable portion of party’s overall damage, it’s definitely not “next to nothing”. In dailies when I run with a friend who regularly opens up the can of worms, I’d learn that as a healer I would often dish out around the same, and sometimes even outdamaging the DPSes in the party. A decent DPS should be outdamaging me and be about 30% higher or more (even better!). Take my damage away in these scenarios then everything will be a slog to clear.

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I've outdamaged BLMs as a SGE as I've gotten better at playing it, just to lend credence to this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CodeAndGin

The reason I started maining sage after getting past the massive learning curve was because I have MORE damage options. It's actually interesting to play.

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Sage doesn't have more damage options though? It has 4. Dosis/phelgma/pneuma and toxikon. the latter in a lot of fights never gets pressed and pneuma is only available at 90

Its not even got a massive learning curve, its about 90% sch

It has 3 really. Dosis, Eukrasian Dosis and Phlegma. 2 of those are on a 30+ sec cooldown.

Pneuma is a heal button and you're lucky to get to use more than 3 Toxicon per fight, even then it's just a move tool rather than dps.

Sage has less actual dps buttons than WHM, which has 4.

If you count Assize, WHM has five. We're practically a fully fledged DPS. Auto-attack makes six. I don't know why we're not topping the meters tbh.

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Originally Posted by Con_Moo

If you count Assize, WHM has five. We're practically a fully fledged DPS. Auto-attack makes six. I don't know why we're not topping the meters tbh.

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Every Healer has a minimum of 4 attacks if we're being technical about it.

A ST Nuke, AoE Nuke, ST DoT and an oGCD skill of some sort.

WHM has the addition of Misery for 5.

AST technically has Lord of Crowns, even if it's RNG and while Earthly Star is still more a heal than a DPS tool, it is a DPS gain to use it as much as possible and should count as a DPS skill IMO so 5 for AST.

SGE breaks the mold a little by trading it's oGCD for Phlegma and having Eukrasia to treat Dosis as a DoT (I just count Eukrasia as the DoT myself honestly). Toxicon is literally no different to Misery fundamentally, you heal to do damage, Toxicon just missed out on riding the Salt Train of buffs that Misery got. So 5 for SGE as well.

SCH has Broil, Bio, Art of War and Energy Drain, which is just bizarre since SCH used to have to most attacks out of all the healers before the skill pruning began. So sad

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Originally Posted by Con_Moo

If you count Assize, WHM has five.

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I didn't count Holy since you don't use Glare in aoe situations, so it's either one or the other. Either way Sage has less real dps buttons than WHM and WHM certainly isn't engaging when it comes to dps.

I don't see Toxicon as a dps button, but Misery I would since you can align one with each buff window, prep it during downtime and it's a gain in dungeons. You use it as a proper damage button that you gain from playing.
Toxicon is mostly just free movement. It's like getting 3 charges of single-use Lightspeed.

I believe that doing dps as a healer is an accepted expectation in dungeons and raids and definitely a good thing, but I also believe anyone that takes exception to a player not doing dps as a healer needs to get over it. If you are still alive because of the healer then be happy that they are at least doing the minimum while performing their role and close your airhole.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I believe that doing dps as a healer is an accepted expectation in dungeons and raids and definitely a good thing, but I also believe anyone that takes exception to a player not doing dps as a healer needs to get over it. If you are still alive because of the healer then be happy that they are at least doing the minimum while performing their role and close your airhole.

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I hope tanks not mitigating and DPS using ST skills during trash pulls are fine too. At the end of the day, they are performing their role (being a meat shield and hitting things). Just be happy about it :)

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Originally Posted by rewd

I hope tanks not mitigating and DPS using ST skills during trash pulls are fine too. At the end of the day, they are performing their role (being a meat shield and hitting things). Just be happy about it :)

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The difference is that tanks not mitigating and dps performing poorly is a sign of them failing at their CORE role, while healers are expected to perform their CORE role as well as another role (dps). Don't blame healers for other's failures and don't compare the two situations because they are not the same.

Your CORE role is finishing the dungeon, not standing around with a thumb up your butt for the 90% of the encounter that requires zero healing.