One potential I can see in Zenos is he could really shake up the Garlemald plotline. To me that was always the least interesting story. Imperialistic, technologically advanced empire conquers nations is the backbone to every second video game ever made, I swear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucah
But Zenos has killed the emperor and is now in charge. He doesn't care to conquer, he just wants to hunt prey. AND he now knows about the reflections of the Source.
Garlemald's role in the story will be a lot different going forward.
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08-09-2019, 01:28 AMAyuhra
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08-09-2019, 02:19 AMDaraliiAssuming it continues to exist. If Zenos abandons his newfound position as Emperor, the empire faces a civil war of unprecedented proportions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
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08-09-2019, 10:34 AMAyuhraThat would also be a shake up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
I don't know about "unprecedented" though. Solus left a giant civil war in his wake by not selecting an heir. Had Varis not stepped up to take the throne, that would have sunk Garlemald. -
08-09-2019, 01:29 PMRopeDrinkNope, still not seeing an admission of being thwarted. The flow of history becoming muddied (after a big timey-wimey expansion where even Emet was surprised/intrigued by the CE's shenanigans) is pretty generic. Aside from a constant mention of their immortality and Emet's passive interest in the CE / how he got to the first with the tower, time isn't something I associate much with the Ascians, other than the fact that it is a massive luxury of theirs thanks to being immortal. Elidibus speech is basically a quick recap on events with a hint of future ones. He describes the hurdles (in his typical nonplussed way), gives a "You've won the battle but not the war" speech about Hyde/the past dissenters of Amaurot, then hints at his future plans, fully intending to take matters in his own hands and oversee our demise. Even his self-admittance at not anticipating Zenos immediately yo-yo's to the fact that his presence is going to cause a lot of unpredictability.Quote:
Elidibus admitting he could no longer control the currents of time was an admission of himself being thwarted. His plan requires nothing less then to shape history.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We may have been saved (for now) from future-Grah's Black Rose fate, but there is nothing stopping it from being instigated by different hands in the present just because we have some inkling of that future. I fully expect Black Rose to still be unleashed and threaten to make a different variation of that 'future' come to pass, just not by the same method (or at the same point in time as that alternate timeline).
-----
Oblivion has claimed him...
Emet-Selch...gone. Lahabrea...gone. I alone remain─the last of the unbroken.
Once more, I am moved to reevaluate the potential of these tattered souls.
Ah, Zenos. Never did I dream you could overpower me so completely, possessed as I was of your body, and all its uncanny strength...
And now that I have shared with you the truth of this world and its reflections, who can predict how events will unfold? ...Not I.
“Emissary”... What a poor jest that title has become. The flow of history has become muddied, its currents wild beyond my capacity to direct them.
You have wrested the advantage, Hydaelyn. The thieving hands of Your disciples tighten their grip on our star.
The origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence, just as You and Your creators desired.
They celebrate the gift of imperfect life─uncaring, unknowing as we weaken and fade.
But do not imagine Yourself rid of us.
Though Your champion has indeed proven the most egregious obstacle to our ascendance─a barbed thorn in my side─she may yet be removed and cast into the abyss.
Oh yes...it can be done. I will keep these “heroes” mired in the First, and victory will be ours at the last.
Warriors of Darkness now, are they? Then their fate is decided.
They shall meet the same end as those who came before─death at the hands of Warriors of Light!
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There are speeches from the defeated and speeches from defeatists. In the words of Kael'thas, "This is merely a setback". -
08-09-2019, 02:52 PMEdaxWhich is an admission of being thwarted. Thwarted doesn't mean defeated, it means "to prevent from accomplishing something".Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
In quick succession, he admits he's lost allies, he's underestimated his opponents, he admits to being overpowered, then admits to no longer being in control of his future and admits he is unequal to the task. Finally admitting that his enemies have taken the advantage. This is not the speech of antagonist where everything is going to plan, this is the speech of someone who has been thwarted.
The fact that he's formulating a plan on the moon means his original plan has been successfully opposed. The definition of thwarted.
thwart
/THwôrt/
verb
prevent (someone) from accomplishing something.
oppose (a plan, attempt, or ambition) successfully. -
08-09-2019, 05:59 PMDaraliiThe last war of succession had blood heirs fighting for the throne. Varis made sure that he was the sole survivor so that he couldn't be contested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
That means every Legatus, every noble house, and every random aspirant would be killing each other for the throne. There have also been shinobi spreading the seeds of rebellion across the entire continent ever since Doma stabilized itself, which could backfire and result in every conquered province fighting back at once. -
08-10-2019, 05:26 AMCilia
Elidibus' speech was more of a "Next time, Gadget! Next time! *shakes fist*" speech, less of a "I have been defeated for all time, I shall never rise from the ashes of my shame and humiliation!"
He's still in the game, but thanks to Emet-Selch's defeat and telling Zenos all the truths we learned, he's not at the advantage he's accustomed to and has to play things off the cuff for the time being.
Regarding Zenos, he flat out says he has no intention of taking the throne, using Black Rose, or continuing the war with Eorzea. The first is completely contrary to his personality and goals (Lucia: "Zenos has never cared a whit for politics. He lives for war and war alone. Kill him, or he will kill you."), while the latter two could end up killing us without him getting to "enjoy" our company once more.
What will happen to the Empire? Anyone's game at this point. Were I a betting man (and I assure you I am not), I'd wager Gaius will end up getting critically injured in his fight with Zenos and have his fighting days put behind him, then after Zenos is dealt with become the stabilizing agent Garlemald needs and reform it over the 6.0 story arc. (Just a guess, though.) -
08-10-2019, 10:46 AMKageTokage
I'm still curious as to how Zenos would be a major threat without the backing of the Empire unless he intends to perhaps rally some support by spreading the knowledge of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, because I can imagine some Garleans might not be too keen on the idea of their lives being somewhat governed by some manner of super primal.
He's not exactly what you could call a world-threatening menace on his own, but give him a Garlean legion or two packing the latest tech and then you have a problem. I'm especially concerned as to how that tease about Tartarus at the end of the Ivalice questline is going to play into the bigger picture because a weapon, quote "with the power to tunnel to the very heart of the star" seems like something he'd be very much interested in. -
08-10-2019, 11:03 AMEdaxExcept he is. He was literally able to fight through the Imperial Palace and stab the Emperor. On top of that, Zenos can't be killed because of his Echo. That means he can do the same to any World Leader no matter how well protected. He could even personally murder the Scions in their sleep if he wanted, there's nothing that can physically stop Zenos now.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
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08-10-2019, 02:49 PMKageTokage
It's more that he doesn't come across to me as someone who'd be capable of orchestrating another Calamity on his own unless he intends to abuse his body hopping to pull some strings not unlike how the Ascians are prone to doing.
He's going to do something to end up forcing our hand by the time 6.0 rolls around...and I'm a little concerned about what since he's the sort who's more then willing to resort to attacks that hurt us on a personal level if it gets our attention. -
08-10-2019, 08:30 PMHaruka_R
In summary:
Zenos becomes Zodiark.
I become Hydaelyn.
Epic kaiju fight.
Sound about right? -
08-10-2019, 11:33 PMEdaxI hope not:Quote:
Originally Posted by Haruka_R
Zodiark and Hydalean are still not developed characters and we already know Zodiark is weaker. Using Zodiark and Hydalean's powers directly in a contest will be inherently weak writing since the protagonist and antagonist will not have much of any impact on the fight. It wouldn't be the Warrior of Light that would be responsible for winning anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
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08-11-2019, 02:30 AMCiliaThis is highly debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
Hydaelyn was inherently weaker than Zodiark owing to fewer resources (so to speak) being used up in her creation, and she has gotten weaker over the ages as the Ascians continue to antagonize her. She was only able to wrest control of the planet from Zodiark by using her special power "to divide" and her elemental affinity enabling her to bind him. Blow for blow, Hydaelyn would lose against a full-powered Zodiark any day of the week (and twice on Thursdays).
Zodiark, on the other hand, is just over half-powered with 7 rejoinings giving him 8/14ths (4/7ths) of his full power. As things stand he can't break out of Hydaelyn's imprisonment in/as the moon.
Regarding the "ex Machina" clause, your example only works because there's no context for it. Here, on the other hand, there is a lot of context, with Hydaelyn and Zodiark having been known about since 2.0 and being major forces behind the conflicts. While they have been in the background it's not as if they came from nowhere. Furthermore even coked up on power from the two, there's still the matter of individual skill and willpower that can make a decisive difference...
Hydaelyn lends us her power because she agrees with what we do, not as a means to compel service from us. Zodiark, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have much of a will of his own despite supposedly being "the will of the star." It's still a clash of ideals between the PC and Zenos (fighting for a cause vs. fighting for its own sake), so I have to disagree with your assessment here. -
08-11-2019, 03:59 AMEdaxThe problem here is that the powers of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are still highly ambiguous. Zodiark can rewrite the laws of reality and Hydaelyn can sunder things. There's no solid setup to how such a battle would go down because you can't measure this power objectively. At the very least the power of the Warrior of Light and Zenos can be measured objectively, they both use identifiable weapons with identifiable spells and abilities. What would an attack by Hydaelyn even look like? What level would it be? What would the attack be called? And what about Zodiark? If we see these two in a conflict, it'd likely be with abilities made up on the spot by the writers with little to no setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Add to that, Zodiark and Zenos don't have goals that align. Zodiark wasn't made for The Hunt by one person or to provide a junkie his kicks. So it'd be Light/Adventurer vs Dark/Adrenaline Junkie which is an awkward clash of ideals. WoL or Hydalean is not strictly opposed to adrenaline rushes. -
08-11-2019, 05:22 AMRopeDrinkIs that a joke? He turned the entire war on Doma on its head single-handedly, and that was before he gained his DIY echo. He's about as close to the WoL's power-level as any villain has ever been without it - and we've yet to see what he does with it post Shinryu. Given he also holds sway over primals (or however you want to explain that resonant power), if he gets so much as a whiff of juice from Hyde or Zodi (as he intends to do), then he'll match us (or exceed us) with ease. He's also the type of psycho who can (and likely will) pay our Scion's a visit while they sleep just to get our attention.Quote:
He's not exactly what you could call a world-threatening menace on his own, but give him a Garlean legion or two packing the latest tech and then you have a problem.
Even without his own body, an Ascian WEARING that body FLED from him, after an expansion involving a different Ascian giving a general idea of just how powerful they really are. That doesn't even mention Black Rose, which I still expect to be used by his hand (despite what he said about it in the epilogue). He doesn't want it to snatch away his target but that doesn't mean he won't resort to it for other purposes if it suits him. He's that kind of lunatic. Heck, considering it stops all aether, threatening to give Hyde a Black Rose shower would be enough to worry anyone.
You can hate Zenos all you like but if his actions don't worry you then I have to wonder if you've paid him any kind of attention at all. The only thing that could make me worry more would be Zenos actually capable of teaming up with someone like Elidibus, but that won't happen. He's a "Me" man. If anyone is going to render the Source into utter chaos, it'll be Zenos, likely with some shadowy influences from Elidibus and/or some WoElidi shenanigans. If Zenos' antics intentionally (or otherwise) provide Elidibus with a means of freeing or powering Zodiark, things are going to get very spicy. The difference now (compared to Stormblood) is that Zenos no longer has to bother placating the Empire. He knows his Resonant power actually works, and he now knows all the Hyde and Zodi shenanigans thanks to Elidibus. Who needs a Garlean Legion when you can drain, torment, or possibly even control the most powerful primal(s) in existence (or at least threaten to try)?
Zenos intends to drain them (one, the other, or both). BECOME them? Not a chance, and it's not like them having any kind of alignment even matters. If the story even remotely hints at an arc like that, it'll either be Zenos attempting to control Zodiark via Resonant, or it'll be Zodiark placating Zenos in some manner that might help himself bust out of the moon (or Elidibus doing it for him). Both are far-fetched and extremely unlikely. I'm still banking on Zenos being given the Vauthry treatment - he'll be prominent (in a background sort of way) and will serve as the doorman boss before the real bosses emerge and start going ham.Quote:
Add to that, Zodiark and Zenos don't have goals that align.
Needless.Quote:
Zodiark wasn't made for The Hunt by one person or to provide a junkie his kicks.
Exactly. It was a recap of the story delivered in a completely nonplussed way. He's not lamenting what he's saying (eg. confirming Emet's death isn't bewailing a lack of allies, or that incident thwarting him in some way). It's just a "Won the battle, not the war" speech where he will no doubt become our biggest griefer down the road.Quote:
Elidibus' speech was more of a "Next time, Gadget! Next time! *shakes fist*" speech, less of a "I have been defeated"
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08-11-2019, 10:57 AMKageTokageI get that he's crazy strong, but I still don't see him realizing his goals without some kind of outside assistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
He wouldn't have even become the monster he is now if not for his legion's research teams, and I think he'd need similar minds on his side to fill his ambition of using Zodiark/Hydaelyn for his own gain. Assuming he doesn't end up universally shunned by the Garleans for his seeming assassination of the emperor, he's influential enough that I could see him rallying together followers under the false pretense of freeing the world from Hydaelyn/Zodiark's tyranny.
As previously mentioned, I feel like Tartarus is going to be a key part of that. -
08-11-2019, 11:30 AMKaurhz
With a bit of luck we'll swat Zenos out in 5.3, or maybe Feo Ul will make my dreams come true, follow us to the source and turn Zenos into a bush, permanently.
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08-11-2019, 02:47 PMTheodric
Hydaelyn is stronger than Zodiark by virtue of being able to best Zodiark in combat. The whole 'shattering of reality' element appears to be something of an unintended consequence and is suggestive that Hydaelyn may not have been aware of the extent of power she possessed.
Or, perhaps, she screwed up as Zodiark was required to maintain the status quo. Perhaps there is more to it that we don't know, but I hope it's more engaging than 'hYdAeLyN sInGs sO sHe'S gOoD.'
Zodiark being more powerful seems to just be another of Hydaelyn's convenient half-truths. He was powerful, certainly, though Hydaelyn being able to defeat him suggests that she had been empowered to a greater degree. The question is by what? I'd consider it to be rather dull if it turns out that she was conveniently able to best Zodiark through some contrived method that erodes away any moral greyness on her part. Especially after so much talk of 'balance' in the main story.
I am also of the opinion that it would be more interesting for Zenos to go after Hydaelyn rather than Zodiark. It'd tie in well with the 'Sephiroth' vibes he has going for him as well as the 'Kefka' vibes.
Having Zodiark's debut revolve around Zenos absorbing him wouldn't really sit well with me. It'd also come across as fairly contrived to me, especially if it was exploited as an excuse to conveniently slay both. If it does happen, I hope that Zenos at least loses his sense of self and is completely overtaken by Zodiark. That'd be a poetic irony - he'd no longer care about his 'Hunt' and instead be a puppet to Zodiark's will.
Sure, he took over Shinryu but that's a completely lesser Primal when compared to Zodiark and Hydaelyn. -
08-11-2019, 03:16 PMTankHunter678Hydaelyn possesses the power to sunder her target, cutting their power in half with every blow. This is a power ideal for the weaker side because it means that the stronger side will not maintain an advantage for long. So long as she is durable enough to survive a few hits of Zodiark at full power then after the first hit she lands her effective durability doubles, then doubles again on her next hit, then again with the next hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
Which matches with Zodiark having the collective aether value of 75% of the ancient population with Hydaelyn having at best only 12.5% of the population invested in her.
If Hydaelyn was considerably stronger then Zodiark from the start then her sundering powers would basically be pointless. It also would not match up with the apparent investment in sacrifices to manifest her vs Zodiark. -
08-11-2019, 03:39 PMCilia
More accurately, the account of Hydaelyn being weaker than Zodiark doesn't come from her. It's a composite of information from Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, who have absolutely no reason to lie to us about it.
At most, Hydaelyn is 1/4 Zodiark's power (50% of Amaurot's citizens sacrificed themselves to summon him, while the other 25% fed to him were just burned as fuel to rehabilitate the planet; this would leave Hydaelyn with, at most, 12.5% of Amaurot's population to determine her strength). Therefore unless you want to claim Emet-Selch (and a bit less importantly Hythlodaeus) is a liar, Zodiark is much more powerful than Hydaelyn at his full strength, and her victory is a consequence of the special power her creators gave her (the power "to divide") and her Light element enabling her to enervate Zodiark into stasis once he was broken down enough.
(Note that while Emet-Selch did historically lie to the Garleans, that served his purposes. He has no reason to lie to us, and we have no reason to believe any of the information he shared with us over Shadowbringers was falsified. Until such a time as evidence becomes apparent that casts doubt on what he said, it is entirely safe to operate on the assumption that everything Emet-Selch said was true.) -
08-11-2019, 04:06 PMTheodric
If Zodiark was truly more powerful than Hydaelyn, then Hydaelyn would never have been able to defeat him. That's my main point.
Hydaelyn's original claim was that Zodiark sought to covet power for himself, though recent revelations have thrown that askew. On Hydaelyn's end, she was apparently only meant to keep Zodiark's power in check - but that wasn't what she did. She effectively destroyed him and shattered reality in the process.
Zodiark having 'more' sacrifice to fuel him doesn't necessarily equal more pure power, especially if the method to summon Hydaelyn was different and more refined. Which is exactly the sort of plot convenience I've come to expect lately.
Hopefully the writers didn't just show us Amaurot to give us another 'sad moment' and they actually plan to commit to the idea that both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are not ideal and they're very dangerous. I'd find it rather dull if there's a contrived explanation for Hydaelyn being 'necessary' but Zodiark is not.
That they have both been revealed to be Primals rather than actual deities is a step in the right direction though I'm still wary about what the future will potentially bring.
Either way, I'm also worried about Zenos being involved in all of this. He's too much of a pure plot device for me to appreciate him as a character - and he consistently does things in a way that allows for the protagonists to never really have to get their hands dirty. -
08-11-2019, 04:21 PMTankHunter678Hydaelyn's power to sunder literally means that if she gets a hit in then the battle rapidly shifts in her favor. If she gets 2 hits in quick succession then Zodiark has basically already lost. On her third hit Zodiark will never have a chance to win anymore because his only chance at being able to beat her is to literally one shot her so she can never land a hit. On the 4th hit she is twice as strong as him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
All Hydaelyn needs to be is durable enough and swift enough to get her hits in. If she can apply her sundering from range then Zodiark has to have a way to block it without his power getting sundered from the act of blocking it. Again it comes down to for Zodiark to win he must win within a single blow without ever taking a blow himself.
Hence why despite being weaker then Zodiark Hydaelyn actually had a very solid chance of winning just from her design despite her lack of aether.
And for primals the more aether they have the more powerful they are period. -
08-11-2019, 05:04 PMTheodric
I consider Zodiark rather than Hydaelyn to be the underdog in that particular fight. Zodiark having more power at his disposal is irrelevant if Hydaelyn conveniently has the ability to weaken him to such a significant degree. The question, then, is why she didn't stop after a certain point. To me, it reads as though Hydaelyn is the one who coveted power rather than Zodiark as she claimed. Potentially both of them were doing as much, but it's very strange to me that she shattered reality and then effectively came to 'rule' over it whilst masquerading as a deity.
It'll be interesting to me if both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are presented as either being bad news or an unfortunate necessity for the status quo to continue as it is.
Though as mentioned earlier if the story goes in the direction of 'sHe sInGs sO sHe'S gOoD' then I won't find that to be particularly compelling.
Shadowbringers brought with it a number of intriguing revelations, though I do hope the writers are willing to commit to them and that they don't conveniently backtrack and render those revelations obsolete. I'm especially interested in the plot point that is 'balance'. If that amounts to nothing, then it'd be pretty disappointing after being teased and dragged out for so long. -
08-11-2019, 07:08 PMLauront
An equally convenient (but eminently logical) plot device could be introduced this time - Zodiark is summoned with her power to enervate in mind and thus shielded from it. The only thing that is non-contingent about Primal summoning appears to be the tempering - anything else, goes, given adequate aether. I also doubt it's as simple as getting one hit in, as their battle dragged on. Zodiark may have been more potent in terms of raw aether but given that she was summoned so as to split everything into pieces, she had the upper hand. The part that Hydaelyn left out is why she and Zodiark fought, and we were left with the impression that he simply wanted more power, as opposed to guarding what was already his by virtue of his primacy.
I believe she didn't stop with Zodiark because that was not the intention - she was brought about to sunder not just Zodiark, but the ancients and their world, because they were too "dangerous" to exist in their full form (especially if the Final Days was an unintended side effect of them that built up over time) and Hydaelyn's summoners didn't want the associated control that would be required to keep their creation magicks in check. Their memory was then wiped of their past*. There were probably false pretences that were offered to ensure the Convocation went along with it, i.e. this thing Emet-Selch mentioned about keeping Zodiark in check.
Although I don't expect them to introduce any plot twists that portray the Convocation as villainous, so much as there being a disagreement over methods and the amount of sacrifice required to bring back their kin to replace the half lives that succeeded them, it's always a possibility.
If it goes back to "darkness is evil" (after a great exposition of why that need not be the case), or the Convocation ushering in the Final Days as a pretext to summon Zodiark (unlikely given the account Hythlodaeus gave, suggesting disagreement came when they were proposing Zodiark as a solution to the problem, rather than much earlier), I'll probably begin to lose interest, if I'm honest. Zodiark's orientation to Darkness may have something to do with it being the most suitable method of driving out these parasites, much like the BoL was useful in dealing with the Lightwardens.
As for Zenos, I think we've only seen things from his angle so far, and I believe there's a little misdirection to give the impression he may be powerful enough to succeed at his goal. I don't think he is. He was able to quell a Primal summoned out of rage at a fraction of the strength of a Primal like Hydaelyn or Zodiark. Although I think he'll be a useful tool in hastening the Rejoining, I believe he will be squashed by Zodiark and absorbed into him as a "reward" for his hubris, taking his body in the process. What he is capable of doing is being a very resilient pest and thorn in your side.
*Maybe not entirely, if the Twelve (thirteen with the twin deities) are a collective memory of the Convocation, as opposed to a literal body formed to summon Hydaelyn in opposition to the Convocation, as is speculated. I wonder how much can be read into Emet-Selch's "weary wanderer" line, given that this is Oschon's title... seems like a reach, really, but so do many things we've learnt in ShB in hindsight. -
08-11-2019, 08:26 PMKalleraThis is probably the biggest strike against Zenos’ character. For all his presentation as an obstacle for our characters to overcome, his actions seem to reglarly aid(or at the very worst, his results do not hinder) our endeavors. This isn’t like Elidibus where some grander scheme is being planned in the wings, Zenos’ goal is the fight, irregardless of anything else. If nothing comes of it other than our victory, than Zenos will be hated as a villain, but in the wrong way: the difference between writing a “bad guy” and writing a “bad villain”. The hatred will be less towards his acts and results in the setting and more towards how said acts ultimately made the plot easier and an obvious handing the world on a platter, instead of a more complex, farreaching outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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08-11-2019, 08:54 PMLauront
Indeed, but they also risk that by writing the Zodiark/Hydaelyn struggle to be entirely one-sided in her favour in terms of its motivation and consequences.
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08-11-2019, 11:09 PMHaruka_RSounds like part 4 of a final boss fight to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
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08-12-2019, 12:10 AMJonnycbad
Hydaelyn was not holistically stronger than Zodiark, she just had a singular ability that exploited a way to weaken Zodiark. The power to divide a soul. Similar in the anime Bleach. There was a general who commanded incredible fire based powers where one single ember was enough to incenrate the most powerful of beings. The villain created a lack who was extremely weak but he spec'd him out with the sole ability to seal the general's skill so it couldn't be used. Does that make the lackey stronger than the general? Same concept. With the power to divide a soul by 50% with each strike, and delivering 13 strikes, Zodiark was reduced in strength enough to be sealed away.
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08-12-2019, 12:14 AMEdaxYeah, I found Stormblood's main story somewhat deflating because Zenos did everything he could to be overthrown from Doma and Ala Mhigo. It makes me question what the true conflict was about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
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08-12-2019, 02:02 AMCilia
Hydaelyn didn't defeat Zodiark through raw power, she did it by having powers tailor-made to counter him.
Anyway, Hydaelyn's entire raison d'être is making sure "the new world belong[s] to the new lives newly born," implicitly the races of man, which means making sure they aren't used as fuel to resurrect the Ancients and bring back the days of Amaurot. Regardless of debatable power levels and truthfulness on anyone's part, at the end of the day she exists to, as so many are fond of the phrase, make sure that "the reins of history are in the hands of man." There is no other reason for her being, so arguing over specifics is kind of moot in my opinion.
Stormblood's main conflict centered around the price and value of freedom, exemplified with Lyse and Hien's heart-to-heart in the Oronir jail while we and Gosetsu were out spying on the Dotharl for them, as well as the creed taken up by the Ala Mhigan Resistance upon our return from Othard (Liberty or Death, an abridging of the famous American Revolutionary creed "Give me liberty or give me death!"). The PC gets their motivations questioned, as well. -
08-12-2019, 06:57 AMTankHunter678Zenos stirred up revolutionary elements in Doma and Ala Mhigo intentionally for the purposes of his Hunt. He wanted an opponent to give him a challenge, and such an opponent grows out of adversity with a purpose. Granted Yotsuyu did a far better job at actually breaking the will of the Domans into submission, while Fordola did a great job at stirring up anger and rage in the Ala Mhigans. Zenos does not care about rulership, nor does he care about expanding the empire. If he lost control of the nations then oh well, it just means his Prey for his Hunt was coming for him. Ultimately us diving into the conflicts in both zones lead to us becoming Prey worthy of fighting him and his defeat at our hands turned us from worthy Prey to worthy Rival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
Which ultimately satisfied him, which is why he tried to end his life. Despite him musing over the offer of joining you to go hunt Primals and Ascians if you accepted him as a friend. That was his story. It ultimately still is his story since he did not properly die. In all likelihood he will find some way to turn the turmoil he will create out of apathy for ruling into a means for training the WoL to be even stronger so that they can have the next Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny be even grander then the last. -
08-12-2019, 12:46 PMEdaxI understand why he did it, it was just awkward that the protagonist and antagonist were pretty much working towards the same goal: rebellion. Maybe that's why I didn't feel all that triumphant when the credits rolled, it's kind of hard to put into words why I found Stormblood so unsatisfying...Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
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08-12-2019, 01:44 PMRopeDrinkSeriously? Ala Mhigo, and Doma, and Garlemald be damned!Quote:
He wouldn't have even become the monster he is now if not for his legion's research teams, and I think he'd need similar minds on his side to fill his ambition of using Zodiark/Hydaelyn for his own gain. Assuming he doesn't end up universally shunned by the Garleans for his seeming assassination of the emperor, he's influential enough that I could see him rallying together followers under the false pretense of freeing the world from Hydaelyn/Zodiark's tyranny.
He was an absolute monster BEFORE acquiring his DIY-echo, as evidenced by the in-game scenes and external media apparently. This is NOT a case of introducing a Joe Soap who later becomes a Big Boss Soap thanks to phoning a friend. Saying he got there due to X or Y is far from accurate, and said research was done entirely in secret from most of the Empire via a shamed Aulus Mal Asina who just wanted the freedom to research cool stuff on the side. It is only after they tested it on Fordola first that he became one himself last I remember, meaning he didn't even have it until four WoL's fight him in the final Dungeon of SB.
Zenos is one of the primary reasons the war spiralled into the Empire's favour almost overnight. Even if you regard it "MSQ storytelling", he casually bested us twice in a row without the Resonant and was bored to tears doing it. It's not like the WoL was otherwise engaged during those times - the Mhigan's and Empire forces were, but those fights were as fair as could be given the circumstances. If any of his troops interfered in his little duel he'd have shoved a katana down their throat. A brief battle later and we're eating dirt. I embrace these moments as a refreshing reminder that we ourselves aren't unstoppable gods, yet it happened twice. Having said that, I hate resorting to duty/dungeon moments to explain things, but even if you remove that aspect, his power was documented as nothing short of obscenely strong even for a Garlean. As a man who casually made an Ascian piddle his robe from white to yellow just by walking into the room and threatening him, he now has a fully functional DIY echo capable of control and resurrecting himself just like the Ascians can.
Don't build Zenos up like it was more to do with his help or situation. The entire SB expansion goes contrary to this given he barely cared for anything on his own side, which was used primarily to set up his combat-contests and nothing more, serving the Empire whenever it suited himself. He's the one who couldn't give two bungholes about that Empire and would have dropped them like a hot spud if it got him what he wanted, as evidenced by both previous finales. Despite that, a hefty chunk of their success was all down to him being bored, and he repaid them by hacking his own people to pieces on numerous occasions just to make a point, one being the Emporer. -
08-12-2019, 03:10 PMObsidianFire
I found SB to not have a satisfying ending because Zenos let the Alliance win just so that he could fight us. I really got the feeling that had... nearly anyone else been in charge of the XIIth Legion that it would have taken the Alliance and Doma way longer to free their nations (if they ever managed to do so) and at the cost of much more lives.
Zenos basically lets us ambush him in Doma just to test if he was right about us providing him with decent sport. And then he all but lets the Alliance waltz into Ala Mhigo so that we can have our final showdown. It certainly made the Ala Mhigan victory feel very hollow when all Zenos had to do was go out and fight the Alliance like he had done at Rhalgr's Reach and the entire thing would have taken way longer at the cost of more lives. -
08-12-2019, 03:27 PMTankHunter678It is the same kinda logic behind a person hailed as a Hero working in secret to raise the ultimate villain who could truly defeat them or at least give people reason to praise the Hero again if they could not defeat the Hero. That was the basic plot of Disgaea 3 Absence of Justice. Where the main villain was a Hero who was tired of constantly being revived by various gods to just solve every single villain problem, so he sought to die at the hands of the Ultimate Villain. However he defeated said Ultimate Villain because they held back, as their son was in the area and would have been destroyed by the same ultimate attack that would have destroyed the Hero completely soul and all. So the Hero took to raising the Ultimate Villain's son (the main character) to replace him, then bait him into attacking the human world where the Hero would then intercept him. With the ultimate Goal being either the Hero dies and all of humanity dies with him so that there is no one to plead with the gods to revive him, or he wins and he obtains a few hundred years more of praise while he restarts the process. Plan goes awry thanks to the MC's friend who becomes a Hero as a result who got the MC to not go on a rampage in the Human world, the Hero-turned-Villain gets defeated but is not allowed true death and is enslaved for the rest of existence as a Butler and research specimen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
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08-12-2019, 11:15 PMLineageRazorOh, if Zenos actually manages to get that far, I think it's fairly likely that he will successfully control Zodiark. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of will - and Zodiark, for all his power, has no real will of his own. No Primal does; they are all bound to follow the wills of their creators. Zenos worked this out on his own, and used that knowledge to subvert Shinryu to his will. If he gets the chance to do the same to Zodiark, I expect much the same. The scenario we're in isn't remotely like the classic yarn of the ambitious fool who meddles with beings beyond his comprehension. Zenos is a sociopath and a narcissist, but he's not a fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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08-13-2019, 02:00 AMObsidianFirePrimals definetly have wills of their own. It might be based on the concept their summoner had in mind when they were summoning, but they are fully sapient beings in their own right. This is the entire point of realizing that primal summoning is Creation Magic. When a primal is summoned, you have someone making a new being. The Anima quest is a good quest to read through since in that one it is the WoL who is making a being from aether. And that being directly compares itself to the primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
That Zoidark can Temper the Convocation of Thirteen, who are the most powerful Ancients of their day, says something about how great his influence is and how much aether and control he has. His title is "Keeper of Precepts" and he is capable of rewriting the laws of existence. If you want to get really technical... Tempering is rewriting the aether of a person's mind so they are obsessed with the primal.
I think what Zenos did probably wasn't tempering either. We see the Ascians posses living beings all the time. What's to stop them from possessing a primal? That said... Zenos has the aether of countless Ancient souls in him. At the very least, he's probably got way more aether then any being we have ever come across and was designed to change the world as his creators desired. Letting Zoidark be controlled by something is not something I see the Convocation of Thirteen wanting to happen to Zodiark when they created him. -
08-13-2019, 11:41 AMKageTokageI'm not saying he's only a threat because of the artificial Echo, but he wouldn't be the immortal menace he is now without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
For that matter, I feel like the most poetic way for him to go out would be for Zodiark to overwhelm him when he tries to do whatever it is he's scheming. I don't think I'd really agree with things going exactly his way yet again and just having a repeat of what happened with Shinryu.