The Gimmick for SMN is what? The ability to summon 'pets' and pets have special actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
The Gimmick for BLM is what? The Hot/Cold system (I know thats a real stripped down version)
The Gimmick of RDM is what? Insta-cast, with some hybrid melee combat.
These three classes have 3 specific gimmicks that affect their playstyle outside of their actual skills. WHen you boil down what raw skills they have, theyre actually a lot more similar. They all have an AoE skill, a few damage dealers, a dot or two. So on so forth. its how these skills are used in a system that differentiate the classes. They all learn skills in a similar enough vein, but how they use them and when is different.
Now, what is the Gimmick of BLU? It is to learn monster skills. Unlike the other classes, the Gimmick for BLU is the means of how skills are acquired. Not the application of them. They may have some little 'minigame' system (resource management or something) involved, but at the end of the day, the goal of BLU is to LEARN exotic skills and then use those exotic skills as they are to accomplish a variety of tasks. This creates the inherent problem. It's not just raw numbers that matter. Its what those monster skills would do.
Bad breath, as an example, would have to be dumbed down A LOT to work in a party environment. It would be a vastly smaller cone of effect, have most to all its debuffs removed, and likely deal minor damage (if at all). It would need this treatment so it woudl fall in line with all the other caster AoE spells. Then you have to consider which skills get gutted or not. If you make to many BLU skills have utility (i.e, make it to flexible), it would become an almost must pick. To few, and you limit the Gimmick of the class, stripping it of its identity. You cant have a wide array of skills either, because that is also powerful. Having more skills than any other class either means the skills are vestigial, or if theyre all viable, youd end up with an overly flexible class. Again, that would make them must picks in a raid environment. This is a big blind spot in points like yours. You assume power is merely a numbers game. X skill does Y damage, therefore it is/isnt powerful. But its not just skill damage, its what skills do, what BLU would have access too, and how that access interacts with all other classes. For example, if BLU could get Trick Attack, that would skew raid balance hard. Double the up time damage windows without impacting the LB bar, on top of providing everything else it might (buffs, heals, CC, you name it.)
If you start limiting what skills BLU can use and do in a party environment, then you end up chipping away at its Gimmick. The class becomes empty. Its just a caster with a few fancy spells that it learned from monsters. It identity and concept get reduced in scope and people then start saying "SE, you sucked at implementing this! This isnt BLU. This is a travesty!" If they add an extra gimmick to compensate, then its no longer BLU, because the Monster learning aspect is just a more complicated way to get skills, and the gimmick then becomes the second thing tacked on.
This is the problem that having it be part of the DF system would end up contributing to. Thats why its hard to balance. They can either give you a game experience of being a Mage who learns magic from monsters, and has to go on some quest or another and must use all the skills he or she learned to win (making the emphasis on learning monster skills), but restrict it so that it cant participate in end game content, OR they gut it, dumb it down, and possibly add a second gimmick, turning it into a shell of what the BLU concept was all so you can take a reskinned thaumaturge to party content. I dont know about others, but I prefer the first.
Ok, so you pretty much have a reskinned Thamaturge. See above to understand why. Even more so, but youre creating a system that has soft restrictions too. So any skill that isnt useable in a dungeon makes it moot simply because youre defeating the point of the party system, and any skill that cant be used on a boss is also moot, for the same reason. But now you have to remember what skills can be used where. We have that to an extreme limited extent. CC is generally tied to one or two skills at most, and most bosses are invulnerable to it. Your system would require more skills to become moot in boss encounters, and dungeons at large.Quote:
Originally Posted by PortalScience
Aslo again, consider the power of having a class with to much flexibility. Lastly, you are adding a gimmick ontop of a gimmick. The core identity of BLU is learning skills, not the application of them in rotations. Where RMD, SMN, and BLM all have systems that use their skills in different ways (so the focus is on application within their gimmicks - like summoning Bahamut in SMN's case), BLU does not have such a system inherently. Their set up is "I have a scenario, and Ill use my plethora of skills casted as is to overcome it." Any gimmick system on top of that would either be very basic or would take power from the "Learned Skills" system for the sake of balance, thus mitigating the identity of BLU and making it more of a generic caster that happens to learn skills from monsters rather than an NPC.
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11-20-2018, 07:51 AMMelichoir
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11-20-2018, 08:05 AMNarielSo how fighting a monster in a job quest is not learning from a monster ? Don't want to make him learn anything by leveling ? Make short job quest requiring to do "whocare" to learn his abilty, don't even need a instanced fight, just go kill this monster in the overworld/dungeon and be done with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
How the actual learning process is that incompatible with balancing the said spell for actual content ? They can't have normal potency or effect ? Of course they can't, they are balanced for the mask carnival and nothing else.
Nobody will reject them for missing xxxx spell, many player barely know how to play and still manage to get carried away in any dungeon or normal raid. So many floormop have primal mount its ridiculous. Rejection in savage ? Well looking to do savage without being ready for it is kinda self defeating. -
11-20-2018, 08:06 AMVunakIn just about every other iteration of BLU it was dumbed down to fit into that games systems. Even in FFXI where you had literal 100s of spells, not a single one of them was instant death or some such (at least when I played it at 75 cap, idk if it is still this way) and it definitely didn't feel or play like the other mages in the game. Thinking in absolutes like this is what caused us to get a "limited" job to begin with. There are numerous different ways to make BLU work in and out of the DF. Level 5 Death is a poor example of a reason as to why BLU can't work as the example SE gave. Level 5 Death wasn't given to BLU in FFXI. Just like Black Mage in FFXIV doesn't have Death the spell a very iconic BLM spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
As someone mentioned above giving it a Monster Gauge where certain skills add to the gauge and when it hits a certain threshold opens up a big BLU spell of certain affect. I thought something along the lines of XI lore would work with the gauge as well where you have to balance it out on your spell use to not be consumed by the Blue Magic. Your spells get stronger as you get closer to that top end and if you let it go to far, something like the Ninja bunny happens but in BLU flair (or get a massive DPS boost for a few seconds and then a large DPS loss when it wears off) and you have to start over. But keeping that balance allows you to push DPS higher. -
11-20-2018, 08:30 AMShougunNot arguing that learning skill is not part of BLU's gimmick but just curious (in general) what the combat gimmick for BLU will be. I mean to say that imagine it's just monster abilities. Is it what.. 24 oGCD spells? lol, that can't be it. No combos? Rea..ally? There's got to be a system in place, and therefore there is probably a combat gimmick. That or it's very very straight forward job lol. We could make up some combat gimmicks in posts but I imagine it being so close to release there'd be not a huge point unless the system they used isn't exciting (but we don't know yet so.. yeh lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
So I mean to say you have a piece of the gimmick but I can't imagine that's it, I feel there is very likely some combat gimmick. That or people who like complex / interactive jobs will likely not like BLU. (Obviously we'll have to wait and see)
I'd add though that I don't think the inherent problem you mentioned is unsolvable. There are thousands (probably literally) of monster skills, for SE not to be able to pick out skills from the list of available skills and turn it into a job would be.. talented lol. Not saying it'd be easy though.
Also any skills that are concerned for bosses should probably just have a rule attached to them. Like lets take level 5 death for example: If 5k potency attack would kill the target then the target is killed, otherwise deal 800 potency and do bla - 3 min cooldown. Now it won't be a boss killer but it could be a trash killer, and it's still useful even if it doesn't instant kill. imo Self destruct could avoid boss restrictions by something like being a dragoon ish skill "deals heavy aoe damage, reduce damage received by 35% while reforming for 2 seconds". Bad breath as you said would probably be brought down a bit but it doesn't have to be to the point of being boring/bad, like "inflicts 1 to 3 random status ailments per enemy in a target area" for 15 seconds and put the skill on a consuming system (like greased lighting) or add a long cooldown.
Anyway I don't think skills that are adjusted like above would be boring even if they're not exactly the same. Also i'm personally leaning to / hoping for a set of core skills you have to go learn that SE balances for duty finder/raid, but can be unlocked/buffed in open world content along with other side skills that SE wants to add. Particularly I think that when you equip the wacky unbalanced skills they can come with passive buffs to your character and skills, so that you mix the two together when doing outside content - like say stool pelt a non balanced skill (from gorilla) also adds 10% hp and unlocks bad breath's full potential when equipped - where bad breath was the balanced for duty finder skill. In this way the player gets to unbalance themselves how they see fit for open world/solo, and their core set is still valuable.
The worst part I know is that I'm just saying "give me both, what you (SE) wanted to make and what I hope to be able to do with Blue Mage" lol.. so I know it's a big ask, but even if I enjoy their version of blue mage (sounds like I will) I know I'll always want to be able to take him into other content too (and therefore it'll be a very bitter sweet pleasure). What would really be a bummer though is if I don't like their version and now we'll also never get a viable "main" job either, double whammy lol. -
11-20-2018, 08:31 AMMelichoirAgain, the core concept of BLU isnt the use of skills within a rotation. Its the fact you can LEARN monster skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
So you go on a job quest and get the "Summon Bahamut" skill. Well, you cant just "Summon bahamut" You actually have to use your Aetherflows to charge your gauge and use Dreadwyrm trance twice (if Im not mistaken) and then once you meat conditions, you can use the skill. This system is set up and built around a system. The system has limitations built into it, exploits built into it, and pros and cons. Its balance is determined by how that system works and how the skills you get interact with it. This system differentiates its playstyle from BLM and RDM.
BLU doesnt have this, because BLU is based on learning Monster skills themselves and directly applying them in combat. Therer is no "System" per say, other than "Go out and learn as many skills as you can to complete your objectives." Instead of mastering a system, you are mastering skill usage and judgement. This difference becomes the issue. The gimmick isnt a system (learning optimal rotations, when you can use what, etc etc), its how you gain your skills and who you apply it to. Dreadwyrm trance works on all bosses. Bad breath Wouldnt, UNLESS they make BLU be the exception (which would give it a huge power advantage over all other classes), or they gut the skill by a large margin. If they do the latter, you end up with a class that is casting weakened version of skills monsters had (breaking the illusion, Id call it) and trying to compete with other classes that have more interesting game play mechanics.
Youre kinda proving my point: BLU was never functional from a concept lvl in MMOs due to its power issues. They had to dumb it down. And no, thinking how I am is weighing TWO possible outcomes. Dumbing down a concept just so you can have it in end game prog (which from my perspective is just a reskinned thamaturge - instead of casting fire, you cast 1k needles. congrats, you did the same thing except now its visually different and doesnt require consideration to class mechanics), or you can create a separate and unique experience that lives up more to the core concept but at the cost of End Game Prog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vunak
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11-20-2018, 08:39 AMVunakNot really. I gave an example of how to make it different and there is a plethora of other theads completely dedicated to it. Dumbing it down is a bad way of saying it. It was played down mechanically in every FF, just like BLM was played down and just like SMN and all the other jobs were. BLM doesnt go around casting Death on every mob and one shotting it. SMN has their summons played down otherwise they would one shot every mob and boss with one Bahamut cast. THF or NIN doesn't use assassinate and one shot the mobs they are fighting etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
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11-20-2018, 08:43 AMwhiskeybravo
Holy crap you need to set the Kool-Aid down.
Alright, if we're boiling things down, every Job has buttons. Some are generic, some are unique, some are OP, some are useless. But every job has them, and at any given moment one ability is better to use than another, that's how we arrive at "rotations". There is nothing within this formula that BLU doesn't fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
Agreed. Again nothing here that defies what a full-battle content BLU should be able to accomplish. They learn skills in a different manner than other jobs, and they have unique skills that no other job can perform.Quote:
Now, what is the Gimmick of BLU? It is to learn monster skills. Unlike the other classes, the Gimmick for BLU is the means of how skills are acquired. Not the application of them. They may have some little 'minigame' system (resource management or something) involved, but at the end of the day, the goal of BLU is to LEARN exotic skills and then use those exotic skills as they are to accomplish a variety of tasks. This creates the inherent problem. It's not just raw numbers that matter. Its what those monster skills would do.
Bad Breath, it always sucks to get hit by it because of the incredible amount of debuffs you'd have to cleanse. But how do these debuffs work in FFXIV? Not every mob is vulernable to them, certainly in other FF games there have been monsters that can resist certain debuffs, so there's nothing new here that can't be dealt with in the context of FFXIV. Bad breath could be a standard conal AOE with various debuffs, but it doesn't follow that every single mob has to be vulnerable to every single debuff it could inflict. In the event BLU got a vulnerability similar to Trick Attack then I'd imagine their damage would be on the lower end of the spectrum since that's at least one thing SE can fairly reasonably balance (at least recently). Keep in mind MCH has a similar, all-around vulnerability but it's different enough to not make NIN/MCH a "mandatory" setup.Quote:
Bad breath, as an example, would have to be dumbed down A LOT to work in a party environment. It would be a vastly smaller cone of effect, have most to all its debuffs removed, and likely deal minor damage (if at all). It would need this treatment so it woudl fall in line with all the other caster AoE spells. Then you have to consider which skills get gutted or not. If you make to many BLU skills have utility (i.e, make it to flexible), it would become an almost must pick. To few, and you limit the Gimmick of the class, stripping it of its identity. You cant have a wide array of skills either, because that is also powerful. Having more skills than any other class either means the skills are vestigial, or if theyre all viable, youd end up with an overly flexible class. Again, that would make them must picks in a raid environment. This is a big blind spot in points like yours. You assume power is merely a numbers game. X skill does Y damage, therefore it is/isnt powerful. But its not just skill damage, its what skills do, what BLU would have access too, and how that access interacts with all other classes. For example, if BLU could get Trick Attack, that would skew raid balance hard. Double the up time damage windows without impacting the LB bar, on top of providing everything else it might (buffs, heals, CC, you name it.)
I thought you said the Gimmick was learning monster skills? How does limiting party actions affect their Gimmick of acquiring new skills via learning them from monsters? Many jobs now are limited to what skills they can use in "party environment" right now, so it's OK for them to be limited but not BLU? Wait, isn't BLU the limited job?Quote:
If you start limiting what skills BLU can use and do in a party environment, then you end up chipping away at its Gimmick. The class becomes empty. Its just a caster with a few fancy spells that it learned from monsters. It identity and concept get reduced in scope and people then start saying "SE, you sucked at implementing this! This isnt BLU. This is a travesty!" If they add an extra gimmick to compensate, then its no longer BLU, because the Monster learning aspect is just a more complicated way to get skills, and the gimmick then becomes the second thing tacked on.
The rest of that conjecture is basically proving the point for us. People complain about jobs all day long around here, nothing has changed now except the color.
I'm still lost on this idea that BLU was some super-powerful job that's impossible to balance against others. It never has been. I'm sorry for all the people who've been waiting 7-8 years for them to release BLU only to have it be a Hildibrand side-quest.Quote:
This is the problem that having it be part of the DF system would end up contributing to. Thats why its hard to balance. They can either give you a game experience of being a Mage who learns magic from monsters, and has to go on some quest or another and must use all the skills he or she learned to win (making the emphasis on learning monster skills), but restrict it so that it cant participate in end game content, OR they gut it, dumb it down, and possibly add a second gimmick, turning it into a shell of what the BLU concept was all so you can take a reskinned thaumaturge to party content. I dont know about others, but I prefer the first.
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11-20-2018, 08:47 AMNarielOh and you came with this fact from where exactly ? I'm kinda sure the first game to ever introduce BLU and many after him didn't have any rotation gameplay for any other job too. Rotation is a MMO thing, BLU isn't define by having a rotation but by the fact he use blue magic and how he get it nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
BLM in FFI isn't about astra/ombral, BRD isn't about DoT and for the love of me RED mage isn't about alternating between white/black magic for spiritual balance.
FFXI didn't define Blue mage, FFXI have an iteration of Blue mage, a recurrent and well known job in the Final Fantasy license. -
11-20-2018, 09:01 AMMelichoirQuote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
This is something we dont know yet. This is also why getting upset about the limited system is semi foolish atm. Theres not enough Info. My speculation is based solely on the core concepts provided by current classes, as well as what is the gimmick of BLU that we have been given. This is why Im saying Balancing it would be incredibly hard. There is PROBABLY some system beyond "Just learn monster skills", but, it is more likely that it is pragmatically designed in a way that the focus isnt on a rotation or priority system, but rather gameplay will revolve around how you use the skills you learn to overcome challenges. Think of a action adventure game. As you learn more skills and combos, this gives you a greater variety of tools to defeat harder and harder bosses. So instead of learning a rotation or someting there of, you might learn how to use skills in conjunction to take care of a challenge. Boss spawns a room full of adds, pop a skil that sucks them into one spot, then immediately bad breath them to snare/stun/cc them, then hit them with 1kn. Things that would require a party to accomplish, you would be able to do so long as you have the skills and cleverness to do it.
That seems like a pragmatic system they would build. But thats my speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Im sure the problem could be solved, but the solutions migth be worse than the problem. For example, to make it work without any dumbing down, that might mean re balancing the game around BLU. But the problem with creating restrictions is youre now creating a complicated list of what works when. Dreadwyrm trance works on every boss except in specific and deliberate phases (i.e: Boss becomes invulnerable during a phase event) If every single one of the BLU's skills has caveats on when and where they can be used, thats going to create a lot of issues balance wise and player learning -wise. The issue with the suggestion like bad breath simply boils down to CC is powerful in of itself, and no class has an AoE high damage multiple CC ability. And lets say it can put multiple CCs at the cost of damage. You still have to consider what other abilities BLU would have that would hvae utility. To many and the class becomes inherently OP to anything susceptible to CC, and if you give enemies CC resistance, that negatively impacts all the other classes with 2 or 3 CC at most as well as needing you to mitigate damage on other BLU skills with CC to compensate for so much CC on one class. This is the balance issue with Monster Skills. If all BLU did was learn a reskinned version of Physic, or Fire I, it becomes moot and uninteresting unless you add a system to the class. If thats the case, then you take away from the core idea of BLU, where learning monster skills is just a harder way for you to get your fire 1 equivilant. You can gussy that up in Lore, but the average player is gonna eventually say "Wait a minute...."
The things suggested would make it ideal for solo play. Which is what they want to give you. But for them to operate in party play they become unbalanced. This would require creating rules and exceptions. And lets be frank, you think players are gonna be fine if they can do it in solo play but then get dumb downed versions of their skills in party?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
And man youre all getting into this. Its fun. :)
What is the main identity of BLU that everyone wanted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
To learn skills from Monsters. This means, at the end of hte day, people want to play monster skills. Add a rotation, if you must, but that rotation then means balancing the monster learning skill gimmick, ontop of just balancing monster skills in party play.
Ill just requote your first statement:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vunak
You said that they had to dumb down the skills to fit the system. Ive been saying that, and been saying that in Doing So, it denegrates the core idea of BLU - Something people I do not believe would like based on the points Ive made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vunak
Ill have to give your post a response given time, but Ive already written a lot for this post. But just one quick sticking point:Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
This part leads me to believe youre not thinking about Balance of a class in relationship to itself and content, but other classes. And maybe I shouldnt have said Hildebrand earlier, cause now theres people are treating the class as if its a snarky little plot driven sidequest you do, and not the actual fact its a new class with mechanics and separate content dedicated to it, and you are still able to do content, you just cant do it in DF, and might have to wait a bit of time before you get to certain things because balance is a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
But man, this is way to TLDR at this point. -
11-20-2018, 09:14 AMElerusThank you, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
I mean my "rotation" on Strago was spamming this spell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgknPVl4YJA
Meh, I was young and it looked cool.
That dude should really phoenix down Clyde. -
11-20-2018, 10:08 AMDerio
However they said that BLU is fun and game breaking thus its solo emphasis. BLU will in turn Bad breath will really debuff enemies and moves will live up to their full potential. At least what I hope, otherwise the limited Job is a complete waste of time and resources.
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11-20-2018, 10:38 AMBernhardt
So. . .Blue mage is a class to fight old content trash mobs and bosses so you can farm even more old trash mobs and bosses. . .also you have to bring your friends along or 23 OTHER PEOPLE if you want to see old 24-man content. Sorry, I can't justify paying the price of an expansion for turning the one thing I was looking forward to into another recycled way of going through old content. As someone who has leveled everything to 70, sorry no thanks.
If it becomes a real job that can do current content of raids with the choice to randomly queue up for content, then I would happily subscribe again.
I cannot, in good conscious, support this iteration of implementation monetarily.
And for those who inevitably say "good, we don't need you,"
I hope they release dancer as a rhythm game limited job :P /sarcasm off because no job deserves to be limited. -
11-20-2018, 10:45 AMVunakIt really wouldn't though. The only thing that made BLU different was the ability to learn spells off of monsters. That is already in game and wouldn't need to be changed. Other than that BLU has always been just a normal spellcaster (true BLU at least). There have been a few iterations like Quistis that are a bit different, but that isn't the "norm". Just like Cloud isn't a warrior or a dark knight even though he uses a giant two handed sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
BLU doesn't NEED specific spells to be considered a BLU so long as what spells we get are learned from Monsters. I think we are at 24-26 Job actions right now in XIV. They could have cut BLU down to 24-26 spells so long as they were well thought out abilities learned and it would have been fine. Which actually falls in line with other BLU's in the series. Most BLU's in the series aside from XI had around 20-30 spells that worked within the confines of that game. XI for example only had one spell that was Death related which was a Doom spell that had terrible accuracy and didn't work on bosses, but it wasn't needed. It was a spell they added after all the Jobs went way outside the confines of the game with the level cap increases, same with BLM how they got Meteor eventually.
But XI had a lot of really interesting spells that were well balanced in the game. Was BLU strong? Sure it was. But it wasn't broken strong. Scholar was actually broken strong in XI and had to be rebalanced because of Modus Veritas stacking with other Scholars and a full party/alliance being able to one shot every boss in the game.
There really is nothing intrinsically different between BLU and BLM aside from the type of magic they use. BLM learn by studying tomes and cast elemental magic. BLU learns by studying monsters and casting blue magic. The unique system they attach to it could be anything, similar to how Enochian and Polygot is completely new to BLM as a mechanic in the series as is Umbral Ice and Astral Fire.
For Example... :
Give BLU a monster gauge of some sort that interacts with the spells they are casting. They could even use the monster weakness chart we have had in other FF titles but make it unique to BLU. For example you start with a Bird spell like Wing Cutter, if you use a spell that birds are weak to next like Amorph's Fluid Toss it does additional damage and adds to the BLU gauge. Make them balance it so they don't get consumed by "the beast" so they try and stay peaked for as long as they can. If it tips to the top and activates they get a decent DPS buff for X amount of time and access to a new BLU spell and then tapers off back to the start and an internal CD before they can start building the Monster Gauge again.
Thats just off the top of my head in a 5 minute period. -
11-20-2018, 11:05 AMKayokaneJust to correct you here, BLU is accessible without any expansions. Never bought HW? Can still BLU. No StB? Can still BLU. :3 No other criticism of your post. I like how BLU is being done, yes, but I'm hoping the mass complaints will lead to them getting bumped to be able to do current content quicker :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernhardt
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11-20-2018, 11:08 AMBernhardtNot being able to play anything past ARR was never a complaint of mine. It's the lack of the ability to do current content on Blue Mage, such as current raids, when 5.0 hits. I would gladly shove blue mage back in the development oven and pre-order 6.0 before I pay another company to "play-test" an idea with no promise of it being added to relevant end game content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayokane
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11-20-2018, 11:21 AMKayokaneMy apologies, I saw the 'not pay for an expansion [...]' part of the comment and misinterrpreted what you meant by it.^-^Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernhardt
4.5 Is when BLU will be released, don't know if p1 or p2, yet. And I do agree there inability to do relevant content is a bad descision. -
11-20-2018, 11:31 AMSkyskipBeing locked from content means it's potential will never be fully realized by default. It's already a complete waste of time and resources that would be better spent integrating literally any other full job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derio
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11-20-2018, 11:50 AMXenigma
I completely agree: the idea of a limited job is a bad one, and I believe the developers should abandon it now. FFXIV's versions of jobs like RDM and DRK are great because they are adapted to work within FFXIV's world and game systems, and I was highly looking forward to seeing what a FFXIV BLU would look and play like. Now that we have it, I can happily say the look is great, but forcing traditional BLU mechanics into the game at the expense of limiting their ability to participate in most content is extremely disappointing. Further, the idea that BLU might not even be the only "limited" job? That's a really bad path to take, and I strongly urge SE to reconsider now before going even further down this rabbit hole.
In the interest of fairness, I will say this: the Masked Carnival is great, and I hope that no matter what, that part stays. That includes learning abilities for the Carnival from monsters in the open world and dungeons/trials. It's a great way to let BLU fans have their cake and eat it too, without the terrible cost of preventing them from participating in normal gameplay. Heck, I'd love to see similar content added should you pursue the idea of Beastmaster or anything else that might warrant that additional effort. Just, please, no more limited jobs. Extra content is great, but limited jobs aren't the way to add it. -
11-20-2018, 12:02 PMKogasan
I echo your sentiments OP this limited job thing is a really bad idea and should be avoided like the plague it is and should therefore be abandoned like the sinking ship it is.
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11-20-2018, 12:19 PMFlana
I'm going to throw my opinion into the pile since they did say they wanted feedback on a lot of stuff going forward at fanfest. I am assuming based on their opening argument against Blue Mage that no limited job will ever be allowed in current content. Maybe BLU can do WhateverNewRaid Turns 5-8(S) in 5.4 or 5.5, but I don't see them being allowed into 9-12(S) until after the expansion. That goes for trials as well. I could be wrong, but all we have is conjecture and their statements do not instill any faith in me that it will be different. And no, I wasn't talking about Blue Mage when I wrote the segment below.
tl;dr: I do not like limited jobs and hope they don't continue with them.
In the best case scenario: I totally love the job, best thing ever, 1001/10, game of the year, whathaveyou. Instead of getting to play it though, I'm screwed on raid nights, any time my friends want to do roulettes or alliance raids, or I want to do current raids and trials. Heck, my friends could want to do FATEs or Hunts or whatever and I STILL can't join them on my potential favorite job because the level cap is arbitrarily low on that patch. Its possible I can't do Deep Dungeons at all, or am forced to always go solo, and I highly doubt they'll let a limited job participate in whatever Lords of Eurekadem is in 5.0+ since they don't seem to want you doing current content when you could go in essentially naked and useless since you didn't do the job's gimmick and lack spells/equipment/whatever. So I have this job that I would potentially love to play, but couldn't play in massive swaths of content, even with my friends in premade parties. I can't even use the job to get relevant tomestones for the jobs I can play in that other content until some unknown point in the future. It could be X.1, it could be X.56. Nobody knows.
I'm not interested in constantly thinking to myself, "man, I could be having so much more fun right now." Nor am I interested in feeling like I'm being punished for liking a job and raiding, or doing roulettes or whatever. I don't want to chose between having to force myself to play less fun jobs for all the current content I like, or be shuffled off to solo content to play a job I like because the devs made my hypothetical favorite a gimmick.
It completely kills my interest in any job they might throw into the limited category.
I'd rather they just use that effort to make the existing jobs better or more engaging. Just my 2 gil on limited jobs going forward. -
11-20-2018, 12:35 PMShurrikhanThe original 1.x roadmap intended that you could learn new skills from a combination of combat itself and NPC interactions. Fight alongside Yellowjacket spearmen and you may learn something different than you would from the Flame Cavalry or Gridania's Wailers. Fight giant crabs, targeting their joints via the incap system, and you're more likely to work out armor penetration techniques. Fighting wolves -- buffed with each time they bleed you -- you're more likely to learn defensive skills to keep them at spear's length, by first doing so more manual means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
That concept never came through before the whole span of "build your own job" or "get better at what you want to do by doing it" design philosophies were made anathema and dumpstered in favor of nearly zero-customization jobs, but... that runs awfully close to BLU's "core concept". You're describing a job based solely off its mode of skill acquisition, when universally applicable improvements could very well include that for everyone. That's not inherently "unique". It's just being the one job that isn't terrible in X aspect, which, in the case, has nothing to do with combat itself.
That is something BLU can uniquely excuse being added to the game, but if it's to be something truly "unique" to BLU, in gameplay, it will only be so liminally or because SE dropped the ball in following through.
What's unique about BLU has far less to do with how it acquires its toolkit and far more to do with the expanse of that toolkit, the myriad ways it can interact with a fight and, in that process, itself. That might not be as easily tagged as "monster-learned skills", but it's what actually makes it feel different in how it plays, not just the shape of its grind path. -
11-20-2018, 02:08 PMElerusThis is something I've not addressed but I've got to lend my agreement on this sentiment. Let's say, for sake of discussion, the next "limited class" (and I think the concept should be done away with entirely) they introduce Beastmaster. As a person who played a Beastmaster Hunter for YEARS in World of Warcraft I would of course love this and love to see FFXIV's take on it . . . and I also know I'd hate to play this new class only to be told when I start enjoying it "so you like this new class? Fantastic! Now stay in your little confined playpen while the real classes get access to all the new and novel content. Oh look your friends logged on. Time to put away your toys and join the real jobs, you can play with your ball and cup solo when they're done."Quote:
Originally Posted by Flana
I'd much rather . . . you know play the class I enjoy with them, or better yet be able to play the class in content that I want when I want. It almost seems silly I have to type that out in a modern MMO. -
11-20-2018, 02:36 PMEusisLandaleExcept these limited classes would have new and novel content, and they are real jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elerus
Have to say, I'm loving how this suddenly makes content type that is met with fairly regular "It's just X boss from Y dungeon/raid reskinned. Lazy!" qualify as "new and novel"
You want new raid content? That's all well and good, but drop the BS about content that isn't that narrow specification being non-content. -
11-20-2018, 02:42 PMTransient_Shadow
Here's an idea. Lets wait for the content to actually drop, play said content for a reasonable period, and then give honest feedback. Whining about something that hasn't even dropped yet is just silly and helps literally no one.
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11-20-2018, 02:52 PMPowercowYeah! Just give it a chance! Wait half a year then try it out! Then wait another year or so to *really* get a feel for it! Then maybe give some feedback so they can fix it 2 years after that! Don't worry guys, by 7.2's launch BLU might not be a total mess!Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow
People like you are why we got 1.0 the way it was. -
11-20-2018, 03:15 PMBlueyesThere's a problem with this statement. "Let's wait for the content to actually drop." What content? You mean dungeons from A Realm Reborn? Those have been around for 5 years. We already know what those are like. Yes, Masked Carnival will be something new, but people aren't "whining" about that. People are providing constructive criticism about being barred from participating in the content that every other job can join. We aren't waiting for content. We're waiting to see what it's like to be excluded from content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow
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11-20-2018, 03:29 PMElerusQuote:
Originally Posted by EusisLandale
My, you seem aggressive over someone holding a different viewpoint, you have an alright day over there?
I don't raid beyond what is in the Duty Finder offering save on a rare occasion. I do have one friend who raids and does EX content. But the fact remains that, whatever new content is added for every other job Blue Mage will be excluded from it. -
11-20-2018, 04:01 PMRhivryn
Disagree. I've actually wanted them to implement something like a "Fun Job" category, with jobs that didn't fit in the combat System they've developed, such as an actual Bard job, Dancer, and others; with non combat gameplay that would have the world feel more alive.
But I love the implementation of Blue Mage, I can't believe they had the balls to actually do it. My only misgiving is that I hope they are working on bringing it up to Max level and able to do current duties. I don't care about the time frame, just as long as it's getting worked on. I can really see requiring a strict set of abilities to be able to queue, but I can see it working if they do that. -
11-20-2018, 04:07 PMElerusI've seen this sentiment several times and I'm very confused on where it's coming from. Did I miss a piece of new information? Would you be so kind as to enlighten me? This is exactly the opposite of everything that I've heard about Blue Mage: it is not meant for group content, it can with some duress enter into a premade group for ancient content. It will be level capped at 50 and that cap will be increased throughout Shadowbringers patch cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhivryn
At no point did Square ever say they are going to let Blue in any form into current content. Given their present design of the class the second they do that it would destroy that content: insta-deathing bosses, stunning primals, acting as a tank, healer, dps, and who knows what else. Look, I want Blue Mage to be able to run current content as well, but as much as I want the class as a fully fledged class if Square keeps it in its current design it would be madness to allow it into current content and I just cannot see the reality in which they would ever do that. -
11-22-2018, 07:07 PMjon041065Man, I love that idea. Made me think of what I hoped samurai use a system sorta like skillchains on XI. That instead of combos, there would be the same initial starter, then like three mid combo moves, and then two finishers. The middle combo moves would be like the royal road effects and either boost, spread, or lengthen the effect of the skillchain. The finishers then would be the typical large finish or smaller finish with a DoT. The "lengthen" effect for the large finisher could be some debuff that you could consume like your fire -> wind idea. So you have to make choices in combat to do things like "I should combo a spread DoT" or "I need to consume my stacks on the target".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
I like the idea of two job crystals for blue mage. "Carnival Mage" can be the announced iteration (FFV blu) with the limits and the supposedly crazy solo capabilities. "Blue Mage" then can be the XIV version, hell it wouldn't even have to be a ranged caster, with a proper rotation or gameplay gimmick that makes it different than what we have now and be used in the full game. The dev team has done overall very good with their own versions of the classic FF jobs with a few misses but those have also become better with time after listening to feedback.
For a full version of blu, they could do something similar from another. If anyone has played Legend of Legia 2, do you remember the girl with the elemental magic? If you just spammed the elements they barely did any damage but there were many many combos depending on which elements and which order they were performed in. That's something they could do here for blu gameplay/rotation. Just give each offensive blu spell an elemental affinity and make combos like I described from that other game as the base rotational stuff and then the ogcds would be spells like bad breath or aqualung. The mechanic could be like a very expanded mudra system where you trigger your built up elemental combo or be the actual job gauge to track and then the elemental explosion happens as you finish the "spell combo".
To anyone at SE that is reading these forums and is in charge of gathering our feedback. PLEASE don't go forward with the limited job system unless you do a limited and full version of these jobs or the limited job is onion knight/freelancer. When I heard "it's too hard" as an excuse to not balance the blue spells, I really heard that we have seen the best that Yoshi and the dev team can do already and that I shouldn't expect the game to get better going forward. That more of the same is the best I could hope for. That's a terrible message to be sending to your playerbase and I'm not the only one that heard it that way. I do have faith in Yoshi and team that they can do a lot better than what the live letter made it sound. I will be quitting WoW for the first time due to the game itself and not a guild issue and it got this bad because of lazy and "it's too hard" reasonings for decisions that have made the game worse and worse since 2012. The current expac is awful and I don't want to see 14 start go follow a similar path. There is nothing wrong with solo and other forms of content that are not endgame but they shouldn't come at the expense of limiting jobs. They are the tools that we use to interact with your game. If you tell us that you are working on things and they need more time then most of us will be fine to give you that time. Just no more cutting corners please. -
11-22-2018, 08:28 PMjon041065I never even considered limited jobs to be something like this. I'm against the current concept of them but very intrigued by non combat limited jobs. Good idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBee
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11-23-2018, 02:05 AMADarklore
I certainly HOPE SE doesn't listen to the OP and continues with their plans. Not everyone wants 'group play' and the addition of solo content is an awesome thing for a HUGE number of players. Furthermore, there is still coming a 'group play' new job with 5.0... so for players like me it's great to see SE adding something for the solo players, which many people don't seem to realize are a HUGE population in this game... and thankfully SE is finally seeing the reality of this.
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11-23-2018, 03:41 AMBlueyes
A question for those in favor of Limited Jobs specifically because they want more solo content. Let's take a moment to imagine that Blue Mage was announced as a normal job. Following its announcement, Masked Carnival was announced as a new solo activity that allowed all jobs to participate. Would you still be advocating that Blue Mage should be restricted from participating in endgame content?
The point I'm trying to make here is that this sought after solo content didn't have to be created at the expense of a beloved job. In the scenario I described, you have Blue Mage as a new job and it can participate in this new solo activity called the Masked Carnival. The key difference between the scenario described here and the one SE gave us is that the scenario provided by SE restricted a job from participating in endgame content.
Jobs do not have to be made Limited for SE to create new solo content. -
11-23-2018, 03:50 AMAdiartYou realise nobody is arguing for the removal of the Masked Carnivale, right? It would definitely be possible for a class to have two different skillsets, a balanced one for group content and an unbalanced one for fun (After all, EVERY class already has two sets of actions, because of PvP)Quote:
Originally Posted by ADarklore
Bards do not get locked out of raids despite having Perform, so why would BLU be locked?
Also, except for the Masked Carnivale, all other "solo content" that BLU will supposedly bring is already in the game. Nothing prevents you from playing any class in the open world, or solo old dungeons. Hell, some classes will probably do it better than BLU.
On top of that, one of the best pieces of solo content in the game is PotD/HoH. And BLU is locked out of both of those. -
11-23-2018, 04:18 AMTharneGuess what will happen after that (you know it will.) ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adiart
"Why is BLU the only job with bonus content ?!"
"Where is my Dragoon's Carnivale ?"
And if SE starts adding some kind of solo content to other jobs...(would probably take time and will not release them all at once.)
"Why are you adding the solo content for X and not for Y ?"
"How long till Z job has the same content than W ? This is unacceptable !" -
11-23-2018, 04:47 AMAdiartYeah, cause the current situation is a lot better...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharne
Also, Bard already has a unique feature, and I have personnally never seen people complaing about other jobs not having an equivalent, so I really doubt your situation would actually happen. -
11-23-2018, 04:54 AMBlitzAceRushI don't think a lot of people are saying that BLU had to be made this way for us to get solo content, that said a lot of people are disregarding the fact that up until the announcement the only official mention of BLU was that it wouldn't work as a standard job in 14's tight framework.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueyes
To me it feels like they simply tried to address two issues with one action.
-People want more solo content
-People want BLU
So they created solo content and used BLU so that in some form BLU made it in.
People have used the "assist trophy" term on BLU but while that's used as an insult, assist trophy's were used to include things that were not going to make it in anyway and it was a means to give them some form of inclusion, this is pretty much the same.
Now could they make BLU work? Sure anything could be made to work, they could add in Beast Tamer right now, only it doesn't have pets and uses guns, anything can be twisted and crammed into anything else, but they wanted to do something different, aim to let BLU break some systems but that came at being excluded from some things.
While that is being "limited" all our normal jobs are also limited, they've been changed (in most cases) stripped back in order to fit into the system, BLU isn't limited in that regard and simply limited in another way.
Finally, we just don't know enough, this whole limited job system is totally new and SE's isn't sure how it's all going to work in practice, which is likely why it'll start out down at 50 and be increased later so they can see how things play out as they adjust it.
BLU and any limited jobs after may never be allowed to do current content but perhaps eventually they'll be allowed at the least to simply be kept one major patch behind, we simply don't know. -
11-24-2018, 05:52 AMSkyskipIt wouldn't. It's a complete myth. And anyone who's that angry about BLU getting unique content would be mad about it regardless of whether or not they were a full-fledged job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adiart
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11-24-2018, 06:01 AMArkdraBards side feature isn't content, or at least the kind of content worth being jealous over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adiart
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11-24-2018, 06:29 AMMrKimper
I think that's a bit unfair to say, perform gave birth to an entire SUB community of people recreating songs. It's pretty good content if you ask me.