About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Like Nidhogg. Oh boy. I absolutely hated that guy. Frankly I hated the whole dragonsong war. The leveling story was better in Heavenward, but I much prefer the SB patch stories.

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Are you meaning Nidhogg was an "evil for the sake of being evil" villain? Because he wasn't. It was made very clear that everything he does is intended as vengeance upon Ratatoskr's murderers. You can debate whether it's appropriate vengeance, but not that he has a motive.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Also I'm glad we moved back to Solus. I got tired just by reading the debate on Garlean morality and Regula. It's like arguing with Potterheads about Draco Malfoy. If the best thing that can be said of you is that sometimes you help the good guys in your quest to conquer continents and cause mass genocide....you are not a good person. End of story.

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I agree on principle, but now that I'm not falling asleep at my keyboard, I'd ask to be permitted one last question.

(Also... are you downplaying the positive elements and nuances of Garlemald? For shame! /sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

[I]f a [Garlean] soldier is convinced that the only way to stop the barbarian hordes from invading is to subjugate and civilize them, their aggression becomes a defensive, protective action.

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Consider this: Neither Dalmasca, nor Doma, nor the Eorzean city-states are or were uncivilized barbarians in need of subjugation or civilization (they all have histories dating back centuries). Nor do they have a known history of conflict with the Garlean Republic of yesteryear. Nor did any summon eikons before the Empire's rise to power (prior to Silvertear there are no recorded summons in the Sixth Astral Era at all).

Given these truths, even considering the Garleans' history of being forced to inhospitable territory due to a natural disadvantage, can the Empire's attacks on other sovereign nations be construed as "good," "defensive," or "protective" in any meaningful way?

It's fascinating how those who claim to loathe specific debates seek to start them at every possible turn.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Consider this: Neither Dalmasca, nor Doma, nor the Eorzean city-states are or were uncivilized barbarians in need of subjugation or civilization (they all have histories dating back centuries). Nor do they have a known history of conflict with the Garlean Republic of yesteryear. Nor did any summon eikons before the Empire's rise to power (prior to Silvertear there are no recorded summons in the Sixth Astral Era at all).

Given these truths, even considering the Garleans' history of being forced to inhospitable territory due to a natural disadvantage, can the Empire's attacks on other sovereign nations be construed as "good," "defensive," or "protective" in any meaningful way?

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Ah, but do the rank-and-file know these facts? Likely not. They may know a fair bit about their immediate neighbors (who forced them into exile long ago), but what little they know about the nations beyond is likely provided or strongly influenced by the propaganda they are fed. The billboards and recruitment posters resonate with fear-mongering regarding the Primal Menace, but none of them mention that the Primal Menace didn't really start until Garlemand began its conquest (not even in small print!)

The nations Garlemand conquer and invade may have long, storied histories, but these things are not emphasized in the history books Solus and his regime approved - and if they're mentioned at all, my how these nations have fallen from their days of glory, to become the cesspools of corruption and barbarity they are today!

Even if they had, though, consider the Ala Mhigans under Garlean occupation. Folks in Ala Ghiri assumed the incoming Allied forces would unceremoniously execute any Garlean prisoners of war - and these were Ala Mhigans, people with a relatively recent history of conflict with Gridania who would have a pretty good idea of how they treat their PoWs. Even then, the propaganda was strong enough to convince them that Baut's life was in danger. It's not hard to imagine that Garleans do not recieve news of charming Starlight festivals, or what not, but instead get an unending barrage of tales of rampages by the likes of Ifrit and Leviathan and, oh lord, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! Propaganda can be a powerful thing, and can be used to prompt otherwise good individuals into doing some pretty terrible things.

I'd imagine that Garleans are pretty cruel to their PoWs - and why wouldn't they be? It's justice, for the torture and slaughter of good Garlean men and women unlucky enough to fall into the hands of those Eorzean barbarians!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I'd imagine that Garleans are pretty cruel to their PoWs - and why wouldn't they be? It's justice, for the torture and slaughter of good Garlean men and women unlucky enough to fall into the hands of those Eorzean barbarians!

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Indeed, and guarantees those soldiers will fight boldly to the last rather than be captured by such people, and would never dream of begging for mercy....




...gods be good. All those random Garlean soldiers we've had to kill in the course of the storyline. D:

Not all of the reports regarding brutality will be false, either. When Hien ordered Doma Castle to be flooded it goes without saying that a number of Garlean soldiers - and non-combatants - were drowned and/or crushed by debris. I'd say that counts as a cruel and unusual death. I'd consider it to the equivalent of a chemical weapon - because the cause of death, much like poison, is prolonged and traumatic.

Many would not be lucky enough to have a quick death. They'd panic and struggle to rise to the surface if caught in the water only to be weighed down by clothing/armour. Perhaps they'd be caught on debris and unable to emerge for air. In the case of being crushed? Consider that only parts of them could be trapped beneath stone and dirt. Limbs could be rendered useless or severed through blunt trauma, disallowing escape. Yet something tells me that the Eorzean Alliance or the newly forged Eastern Alliance isn't likely to reflect upon their own actions despite their haste to condemn the likes of Fordola for acts of brutality. It is my hope that the writers are bold enough to force some reflection upon the leaders of both sides of the conflict. That, more than anything, was one of the things that served to make FFXII so memorable.

It's exactly why a war with Garlemald is to be avoided at all costs - it'll only result in suffering for all involved and both sides resorting to increasingly desperate measures...which is exactly what the Ascians have been shown to desire.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Ah, but do the rank-and-file know these facts? Likely not. They may know a fair bit about their immediate neighbors (who forced them into exile long ago), but what little they know about the nations beyond is likely provided or strongly influenced by the propaganda they are fed. The billboards and recruitment posters resonate with fear-mongering regarding the Primal Menace, but none of them mention that the Primal Menace didn't really start until Garlemand began its conquest (not even in small print!)

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I'd imagine that Garleans are pretty cruel to their PoWs - and why wouldn't they be? It's justice, for the torture and slaughter of good Garlean men and women unlucky enough to fall into the hands of those Eorzean barbarians!

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In short, it takes lies (both fabrications and by omission) to construe the Empire's actions as "defensive" and/or "protective" in light of the truths behind the nations it attacks? This is what you mean to say, is it not?

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

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Following on from that, it's also worth noting that - to our knowledge - the provinces that have been treated the most harshly are also those that have resisted and attempted uprisings. It'd be nice to get some details as to how, exactly, those uprisings played out as insurgents would presumably resort to violence, perhaps in excess. Speaking to the NPC's hanging around the Prima Vista reveals that Livia sas Junius responded with force in Dalmasca as a consequence of Garlean settlers - aka civilians - being slain by Dalmascan insurgents.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

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This is very, very hard to justify when the oppresion the Garleans went through in Othard happened well over 800 years ago. And just about all the infornation we have on what the Garleans were doing in the past 800 years seems to paint them as having terretorial disputes that are as run-of-the-mill as the terretorial disputes going on in Eorzea at the time. Until someone we now know to be an Ascian made a power grab...

Lore Book 2 really can not come soon enough...

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

This is very, very hard to justify when the oppresion the Garleans went through in Othard happened well over 800 years ago. And just about all the infornation we have on what the Garleans were doing in the past 800 years seems to paint them as having terretorial disputes that are as run-of-the-mill as the terretorial disputes going on in Eorzea at the time. Until someone we now know to be an Ascian made a power grab...

Lore Book 2 really can not come soon enough...

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It's easy to justify. They were pushed to near extinction. Furthermore, being unable to manipulate aether is a huge disadvantage when accounting for life on Hydaelyn - which isn't particularly pleasant to begin with for the vast majority of those living on the planet. Garlemald itself is described as a frigid wasteland - and if not for the presence of ceruleum they wouldn't have survived the harsh winters. Crops and fish can only be grown/caught during specific windows which meant no real luxuries in their diets. Bear in mind, the discovery of magitek is a fairly recent thing...which means that they've been living lives of hardship for generations. It's fair to state that their recorded history would have explained that they were pushed out of more fertile lands, breeding resentment in the process. Especially when accounting for their numbers being fairly low as a consequence of the harsh environment.

Those territorial disputes were also likely necessary for the survival of the Garlean race. On that note, they're hardly the first race to forcibly unite tribes in order to forge a stronger nation. It happened with the Hingans. It happened with the Domans. It happened with the Ala Mhigans.

As for the lore book, the track record thus far has been for lore revelations to show that things aren't black or white where Garlemald is concerned. I do not expect that to change. Outside of a small portion of characters, very few elements of FFXIV are purely black or white.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

This is very, very hard to justify when the oppresion the Garleans went through in Othard happened well over 800 years ago. And just about all the infornation we have on what the Garleans were doing in the past 800 years seems to paint them as having terretorial disputes that are as run-of-the-mill as the terretorial disputes going on in Eorzea at the time. Until someone we now know to be an Ascian made a power grab...

Lore Book 2 really can not come soon enough...

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No. No one is referring to Othard when discussing that, so that's a red herring. The lorebook in fact suggests that these were not run of the mill "territorial disputes" but a struggle for survival, in the section on the early Republic.

https://14kuponuts.tumblr.com/post/1...-history-other

I'm sure many people are eager for lore book v2.0 to come out, so they can also try dismiss it as much as possible where it doesn't fit their headcanon.

Really, Garlemald isn't as different to the existing city-states as many would like to imagine it is (Alisaie is even disgusted by their pseudo moral posturing early on in ARR, taking credit for work the Scions did and do), and they in turn are not innocent little sheep being devoured by the Garlean wolf, so I am looking forward to this mindset fading away. They all have rather shady pasts and, in some cases, shady present state of affairs.

Garlemald of the past might have been "just another city-state", but we now know that Garlemald of the present is a deliberate tool of the Ascians.

We know that the Ascians are using the Empire's power to further their goals - correct. In that sense, the Garleans are being used by them, and most unwittingly, because they will have no idea about it - even the Emperor's state of knowledge is something we have not been given information on as yet.

We also know that the Ascians would have seen to it that the Primals/Eikons become a threat irrespective of whether they could do it through the Empire, or through some other city-state, like Ishgard. Because that's their job and they have the power, motive and means to implement their goals in any way necessary. As such, the Primals/Eikons will remain a threat for as long as the Ascians have need of it, with or without Garlemald under their control.

The Garlean Republic was 800 years old when it became an Empire and we know the Garleans were in northern Ilsabard long enough to found cities before they were a Republic. So that's at least 20 generations or Garleans who have lived in the same place. That's enough generations for me to think that the Garleans were probably thinking of themselves as IIsabardians and not as former Othardians for quite a while by the time they became an Empire. In fact, I can't remember anywhere in the lore that it gives the Garlean's exodous to Ilsabard as the reason behind the Garlean Empire's initial conquests. Implied, yes; confirmed to be the reason (at least until the lie about the Burn was told), no. If the Garlean lore nerds know where that was stated, I'd be interested in finding it.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

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Revenge isn't really a valid reason for doing much of anything - and if you've been paying attention the game's narrative hasn't been particularly kind in portraying anyone seeking revenge in a positive light. The most vengeful character on the protagonists' side was Estinien, and he remarked that his vengeance felt empty after getting it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Speaking to the NPC's hanging around the Prima Vista reveals that Livia sas Junius responded with force in Dalmasca as a consequence of Garlean settlers - aka civilians - being slain by Dalmascan insurgents.

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Killing civilians is unacceptable, but given the non-citizen (re: slave) status of the native population (in majority or in whole), what recourse would the Dalmascans have but violent resistance?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's easy to justify. They were pushed to near extinction. Furthermore, being unable to manipulate aether is a huge disadvantage when accounting for life on Hydaelyn - which isn't particularly pleasant to begin with for the vast majority of those living on the planet. Garlemald itself is described as a frigid wasteland - and if not for the presence of ceruleum they wouldn't have survived the harsh winters. Crops and fish can only be grown/caught during specific windows which meant no real luxuries in their diets. Bear in mind, the discovery of magitek is a fairly recent thing...which means that they've been living lives of hardship for generations. It's fair to state that their recorded history would have explained that they were pushed out of more fertile lands, breeding resentment in the process. Especially when accounting for their numbers being fairly low as a consequence of the harsh environment.

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They survived centuries. Perhaps without luxuries, but they survived, and if it was for 800+ years - with natural disasters, famines, attacks from neighboring nations / tribes, colder than usual winters (considering the climate) etc. taken into consideration - "near extinction" sounds like hyperbole. The Lore Book says the Garleans, prior to the Empire, were "few in number" but their population nonetheless slowly grew. Do you have a reference for "near extinction" population levels?

The line between oppressed and oppressors is very thin, Thancred was very smart in telling the alliance that they idea of frontal assault is moronic because that would only galvanize all of Garlemand against other races, which is BTW what the ascians want.
Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense. You can bet all you want that they don't really care for Garlemand winning in the end.
Remember that they played both Allaga and Meracydia

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Originally Posted by Cilia

They survived centuries. Perhaps without luxuries, but they survived, and if it was for 800+ years - with natural disasters, famines, attacks from neighboring nations / tribes, colder than usual winters (considering the climate) etc. taken into consideration - "near extinction" sounds like hyperbole. The Lore Book says the Garleans, prior to the Empire, were "few in number" but their population nonetheless slowly grew. Do you have a reference for "near extinction" population levels?

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The lore book states that if not for the presence of ceruleum they would have perished. When people are pushed to the brink and every day is a struggle then it's easy to understand why they'd jump at the opportunity to improve their fortunes. So, too, has it been the case in the real world throughout both distant and recent history. To understand Garlemald, one needs to view it through the lens of a people who have never really had a taste of comfort and stability until they started taking things by force.

Which, I'd point out, is something that is common in the history of many of Hydaelyn's nations.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The line between oppressed and oppressors is very thin, Thancred was very smart in telling the alliance that they idea of frontal assault is moronic because that would only galvanize all of Garlemand against other races, which is BTW what the ascians want.
Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense. You can bet all you want that they don't really care for Garlemand winning in the end.
Remember that they played both Allaga and Meracydia

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Mm. We're due a twist on FFXII, I suspect. Especially with Varis quoting Vayne almost word for word...and the Return to Ivalice raids giving us a load of Garlean lore.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense.

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I get the feeling this is much less the case then it used to be, at least when it comes to us (and probably the Eorzean Alliance) being used by the Ascians. Until the end of 4.0, Elidibus seemed fine with having the WoL around. From his introduction in the 2.x series, he mostly left us alone. In the 3.x series, he got a bit more involved after Lahabrea screwed up, but he still worked mostly though proxies. He all but threw Unakalhai and the Warring Triad problem into our laps and was more then happy to send the Warriors of Darkness our way. Even though he didn't mention to the WoD that they should try and get in contact with Hydaelyn, he didn't try to stop the WoL and the Scions from trying to do that either.

This "hands-off" approach ends at the end of 4.0. He inhabits Zenos' body, which is very recognizable and has a lot of influence and proceeds to involve himself in affairs on Hydaelyn like never before. In 4.3, he uses that influence to orchestrate a primal summoning to discredit a Garlean political faction. In 4.4, he tells Varis to go take back Ala Mhigo and when that doesn't work, says he can kill the WoL easily so long Varis retains the charade of Varis being the one in charge. And he's probably the one who got Solus to come out of retirement. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think Elidibus was running damage control on the current situation after the events of 4.0.

I get the feeling Elidibus was not planning on 4.0 going the way it did. Whether that was Garlemald not losing Ala Mhigo and Doma or Shinryu getting to wreck more havoc (and manage to temper people?) or Zenos being a bigger obstacle to the WoL. Something happened (or didn't happen) that caused him to get more involved then he ever has been before and caused him to view the Warrior of Light as someone who needs to be taken out. I can easily see that as the Warrior of Light or the Eorzean Alliance not acting according to the Ascians' script anymore, and Elidibus trying to get them off the board so to speak.

Of course, it might also have nothing to do with the WoL or the Eorzeans at all. At minimum, the Shadowhunter has found and ousted at least six Ascians from the bodies they were possessing. At maximum, those Ascians are dead and aren't coming back. There's other parties moving against the Ascians then just the WoL now and Elidibus might be trying to prevent the WoL from finding that out. Although by now he's to late to prevent that...

The Warrior of Light may very well be an obstacle, though the Eorzean Alliance isn't. Lahabrea and his companion told us back in Heavensward that mortal conflict is the key to bringing back Zodiark. Presumably because - as with Primal destruction - it risks ushering in a Calamity. Thus the Ascians want Eorzea and Garlemald to be at each other's throats. They don't care for either and have been shown to back both sides - as shown with Elidibus giving Ilberd the Eyes of Nidhogg. Which, I might add, is precisely the point where Eorzea became the aggressor and made a move on territory occupied by Garlemald. All in the name of liberation...and yet now moves are being made to cause mischief within the inner territories as well, which risks causing that 'chaos' thing that the Ascians adore so much.

Those ascians aren't coming back? How you are sure of that? Because of the mask? I think we require more proof, also we know that forcibly removing the ascians is a big no-no.
In fact I think that Gaius atm is a wildcard that can be a boon and a curse to us.
Besides my point was that the alliance can be used. Ascians have always played both parties for their end.
They created an empire hellbent on killing primals and at the same time they give plenty of means for the summoning of primals. They don't care about 1 side prevailing on the other since that will not bring chaos wich is what they want as such we should stop playing this rigged game.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Those ascians aren't coming back? How you are sure of that? Because of the mask? I think we require more proof, also we know that forcibly removing the ascians is a big no-no.

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I said that the minimum Shadowhunter did was find out that Ascians were possessing people and made them stop possessing people without killing the Ascians as well (I don't see Giaus collecting trophies if he didn't do this). Even the WoL has only managed to do that once and that was when the Ascian doing the possessing showed off that they had been possessing someone. However, there's nothing that says he hasn't permanently killed them either, so that option is still on the table.

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They don't care about 1 side prevailing on the other since that will not bring chaos wich is what they want as such we should stop playing this rigged game.

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Of course the Ascians want more chaos. However, the Eorzean Alliance is trying to cause the least amount of chaos they can rather then the most. It would cause far more chaos if the Eorzean Alliance really did invade Garlemald. Instead, they're content to tell Garlemald the truth about Zenos being possessed and then seeing what Garlemald does with it before doing anything more drastic. And the same thing goes for Varis; he doesn't want to invade Ala Mhigo any more then the Eorzean Alliance wants to invade Garlemald. However, it's way easier (and less of a logistical nightmare) for the Ascians to put pressure on the Garlean Empire with it's one main leader then it is to put pressure on the Eorzean Alliance with it's five different leaders.

It's a lot harder to manipulate people when they know you're trying to manipulate them and the Eorzean Alliance has a lot more peer-reviewing built into making it's decisions then the Garlean Empire does. And it has the Scions who know how Ascian possession of living people works (find the Crystal of Darkness!). An Ascian trying to directly manipulate the Eorzean Alliance is going to have a lot more hoops to jump through then one (or two as the case is) that is trying to manipulate the Garlean Empire. I have no doubt that is a major reason the Garlean Senate no longer has any administrative power. Trying to manipulate everyone in it to do the same thing would be hard to orchestrate. Manipulating an Emperor though? Much easier.

That was Thancred Idea, he can't come up with new ideas for the time moment, next time someone wants to take action we'll play in their hand.
Also no, you might know that they'll try to manipulate you, but you don't know how, so far killing primals for example was always part of the plan, we don't have moments where we have subverted manipulations as far as I can remember, we've been plently played like a fiddle in many situations. So forgive If I'm sceptic of being able to escape manipulation.
Even the stunt that Urianger developed for the warriors of darkness actually helped the ascians in the end according to Elidubus and Urianger too has been removed from the picture.
Frankly I'm starting to think that the calling was idd an ascian effort simply because they removed 3 pieces that were either dangerous with their minds or caught a glimpse of something ( the aether flux).
I'm not sure that any of the leader of the alliance is actually capable of witstanding any kind of manipulation atm and tbh I'm wondering about their competence in war considering how the war effort from the peaks to the lochs went.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

That was Thancred Idea, he can't come up with new ideas for the time moment, next time someone wants to take action we'll play in their hand.

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It might have been Thancred's idea. But everyone in the Eorzean Alliance decides to go though with it. Thancred and the other Scions being taken out of the picture only make the other Alliance leaders want to make sure Thancred's and the Scions ideas work all the more. No one wants to be in a direct conflict with Garlemald.

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Also no, you might know that they'll try to manipulate you, but you don't know how, so far killing primals for example was always part of the plan, we don't have moments where we have subverted manipulations as far as I can remember, we've been plently played like a fiddle in many situations. So forgive If I'm sceptic of being able to escape manipulation.

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The Ascians would prefer it if we didn't kill Primals. The longer Primals are alive, the more aether they suck out of Hydaelyen and the faster another Rejoining comes about. The Ascians as a whole have been very open to to explaining what they are trying to do to the Warrior of Light. If anything, they can't shut up about it. We have a pretty good idea of what the Ascians want. At least, the Ascians that aren't Elidibus. They want more conflict, not less. The Alliance is purposely not engaging in direct conflict with Garlemald.

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Even the stunt that Urianger developed for the warriors of darkness actually helped the ascians in the end according to Elidubus and Urianger too has been removed from the picture.

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Where does Elidibus say this? Elidibus wanted the Warriors of Darkness to prevent their shard from falling by creating more darkness by being an obstacle to Hydaelyn and the Warrior of Light. Only that's not what happened. It turns out it's possible to balance out light and darkness without having to increase darkness. Instead, Hydaleyn takes in the extra light from the WoD's shard and it's implied that will give her more power in the long run. Something the Ascians have been trying to prevent for a very long time.

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Frankly I'm starting to think that the calling was idd an ascian effort simply because they removed 3 pieces that were either dangerous with their minds or caught a glimpse of something ( the aether flux).

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Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. There's so many unknowns surrounding the Voice, I don't even have any reaction to it or the Scions being Called out of their bodies yet.

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I'm not sure that any of the leader of the alliance is actually capable of witstanding any kind of manipulation atm and tbh I'm wondering about their competence in war considering how the war effort from the peaks to the lochs went.

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Just about everyone (The Alliance, Shadowhunter, etc.) agrees that the Eorzean Alliance had no business of wining the fight in Ala Mhigo as fast as they did. That has everything to do with Zenos not caring about anything except having an even fight with the WoL. The war in Ala Mhigo says very little about the Alliance's military might and everything about how selfish Zenos is.

The Alliance is harder to manipulate do to the shear number of people running it. It doesn't have anything to do with the Alliance being special in some way. Manipulating one person (Varis) is easy. Manipulating five different people (Kann-E, Almeric, Merlwyb, Nanamo, Rauban) and all of their advisors (Lucia, Lyse, all the Grand Company Marshals) and the Scions (even just the ones that are still around)? Much, much harder. They all know each other well enough that if any of them does something weird or has a sudden reversal of policy, the rest of the leaders or advisors will know something wrong is going on. They'd pretty much all have to be manipulated at the same time and all have very good reasons not to talk to each other about it. Which I don't see happening. The Alliance Leaders aren't just political allies, but each other's friends. There's so many opportunities for someone to realize something not-normal is going on and start investigating what is going on that I have a very, very hard time seeing a singular Ascian influencing much. You'd need a lot more Ascians then we're used to seeing to all be working together for it to work. And the Ascians have never had the easiest time working together, subtly anyway...

Varis can be easily manipulated because there's no one else leading the Garlean Empire but him. He's leading an Empire after winning a civil war for the throne and is hated by a lot of people. He needs to keep his grip on the Empire and the Founder of the Empire and his Heir are both threatening to take the Empire away from him. And given how Ascians can posses people, it wouldn't even be that hard to do. And Varis knows it. The only question now is how far will he be willing to go to say Emperor.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The Alliance is harder to manipulate do to the shear number of people running it. It doesn't have anything to do with the Alliance being special in some way. Manipulating one person (Varis) is easy. Manipulating five different people (Kann-E, Almeric, Merlwyb, Nanamo, Rauban) and all of their advisors (Lucia, Lyse, all the Grand Company Marshals) and the Scions (even just the ones that are still around)? Much, much harder. They all know each other well enough that if any of them does something weird or has a sudden reversal of policy, the rest of the leaders or advisors will know something wrong is going on. They'd pretty much all have to be manipulated at the same time and all have very good reasons not to talk to each other about it. Which I don't see happening. The Alliance Leaders aren't just political allies, but each other's friends. There's so many opportunities for someone to realize something not-normal is going on and start investigating what is going on that I have a very, very hard time seeing a singular Ascian influencing much. You'd need a lot more Ascians then we're used to seeing to all be working together for it to work. And the Ascians have never had the easiest time working together, subtly anyway...

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It's always been a competition between the Ascians to destabilize the Eorzean city-states, and the Eorzean leaders to try to keep it stable. The problems the members of the Eorzean Alliance face are still present, and requiring attention: the Syndicate Monetarists, the unstable Ala Mhigan government, the political upheaval in Ishgard, the restive pirates of Vylbrand, the fragile balance of the Elementals of the Shroud... the Eorzean Alliance is united right now in opposition to the Garlean Empire, but the Ascians can always try to stir up internal troubles once again, and the leaders will have to convince their own governments and populations of the need to help out those which had until recently been their own rivals. As the 60-70 BRD questline shows, it won't take very much for dissent in the Eorzean Alliance to spread and cause major problems.

For example, right now the leaders of the Eorzean Alliance are friends (or at least close colleagues), but the leaders are theoretically allowed to be replaced. Kan-E and Merlwyb are probably safe (Kan-E has Padjal job immunity, Merlwyb can outsail and outfight any potential Trident challengers), Aymeric has high popularity ratings, but Nanamo still has to deal with the Syndicate (which might not even be aimed at her; just their usual cut-throat maneuverings might cause issues on their own by complete coincidence), and Raubahn and Lyse are still working on Ala Mhigo and could be replaced at any time.

Of course, given that the Ascians seem to have gone all-in on Garlemald at the moment, that probably means the Ascians have their own problems with basic strategy. And obviously the Eorzean leaders aren't going to just sit there and take any attacks on their positions passively.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The line between oppressed and oppressors is very thin, Thancred was very smart in telling the alliance that they idea of frontal assault is moronic because that would only galvanize all of Garlemand against other races, which is BTW what the ascians want.

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That was already accomplished by manipulating Yotsuyu into summoning an eikon. There's no stopping a conflict at this point, just attempting to mitigate how bad it gets.

If there weren't Ascian puppeteers behind the Empire, it might be possible to prevent the conflict. As things are now, though?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense. You can bet all you want that they don't really care for Garlemand winning in the end.

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They don't really care who wins, so long as there's conflict.

You can't defeat entropy.

EDIT
While conflict itself is a goal of the Ascians, the Empire winning would set things up for further conflict due to the brutality with which it treats conquered peoples and the fact it's intended to continue waging war against other countries until it conquers the planet. (What then?)

Remember that 30% of the citizens of the capital aren't Garleans. Full citizens not aans, so ppl like Asahi or Rhitatyn. I get why ppl say that the system is wrong, but it's more probably that the problems lie with the ppl, since the system itself would allow non garlean birth can get to full citizenship and on high places since the social standing is based on merit not birth or wealth.
The exact details of how their merit works is what I would like to know more in depth before handing a judgment but atm if you were to remove the pureblood assholes the situation in most garlean controlled countries the situation would be better, I mean in the Ala mhigo piece of the lorebook 2 they said that they brought in new tech like a better illiumination and a sewer system, the wrong of that is that only citizens are allowed such novelties and THAT has to change.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Remember that 30% of the citizens of the capital aren't Garleans. Full citizens not aans, so ppl like Asahi or Rhitatyn. I get why ppl say that the system is wrong, but it's more probably that the problems lie with the ppl, since the system itself would allow non garlean birth can get to full citizenship and on high places since the social standing is based on merit not birth or wealth.

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The official stance is that advancement is merit-based, but in practice it's very clear that it's still based on racial and class prejudice. (See Fordola, and also why the highest rank a non-pureblood can reach is only "sas".)

So when I say it's "systemic", I am referring to the actual system that is in place, rather than the one that the Empire claims.

The Empire's claim to meritocracy seems to... vary.

van Baelsar seems to have been a firm believer in the concept, though that doesn't seem to be the case for most other Imperials we've met. Rhitahtyn and Fordola both got their high rankings under his command, and he even accuses the soldiers of abandoning Rhitahtyn to his death at Cape Westwind (untrue - Rhitahtyn told them to leave so we wouldn't kill them in the battle). Varis also promoted van Hydrus on merit, though this could be seen as blending with nepotism a bit (van Hydrus helped Varis become Emperor, which he rewarded by giving him the rank of Legatus... if I remember correctly).

On the other hand, the racism coming from nearly every other Imperial is blatant. This is probably hammered home best with both mal Asina's declaration that the Garleans are superior, both physically and intellectually (except their inability to wield magicks), and Fordola's painful acknowledgement that you won't be treated as an equal unless you prove yourself to be exceptionally superior to Garleans. (There's even a bit of sexism there too, with Imperial soldiers implying Fordola only got her rank by whoring herself out, rather than because she deserved it.) This could be seen as purely due to Zenos' malign influence, but even van Hydrus repeatedly refers to the Eorzeans he interacts with as savages... so it's not quite so contained.

If memory serves right the "sas" limitation only applies to naturalized citizens - those born into the Empire can (theoretically) go as far as their merit takes them (up to "van," but "wir / yae / zos" is still reserved for the royal family), but integrated peoples can't advance further. My memory might not be right, though, and if it's wrong that is literally institutionalized racism.

Class divides, even among Garleans, are also there. Again, shaky memory, but I believe it was mentioned that van Hydrus came from common birth, which is why so many of the other Imperial Legatuses (nobles) were opposed to his promotion and why there were efforts to sabotage his mission on Azys Lla that led to Sophia's release.

... while the Empire says it's meritocratic, that's not necessarily true. What things say on paper and how they work in practice are often two different things.

1 thing i hope is when the empire changes they get rid of the class system such a pain -_-

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Originally Posted by Cilia

In short, it takes lies (both fabrications and by omission) to construe the Empire's actions as "defensive" and/or "protective" in light of the truths behind the nations it attacks? This is what you mean to say, is it not?

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Indeed - but it is the powers that be the bear the fault for those lies, not the rank-and-file. The average Garlean soldier cannot be considered evil for participating in the invasion, as they have been convinced that it is necessary for the preservation of their family and home. It's only slightly different from the situation with the average conscripted soldier, who is ALSO fighting for the preservation of their family and home (except in their case, it is their Garlean masters providing the threat rather than nebulous "barbarians").

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's easy to justify. They were pushed to near extinction.

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Not really. What you're suggesting would be akin to the survivors of Sil'dah being justified in conquering Thavnair because they were driven nearly to extinction by Ul'dah. Aside from the odd scholar, it's likely no one in Thavnair has even HEARD of Sil'dah, and their ancestors at the time of the Ul'dah/Sil'dah war likely knew even less.

There's no indication that the ancestors of anyone in Eorzea or Orthard had anything to do with the ancient Garleans' oppression, and yet Doma and Ala Mhigo were conquered all the same. Any state that had a direct hand in forcing the Garleans into exile is currently hidden underneath the clouds on the map, and has not been directly named or referenced in-game. It's clear that whatever motivation Garlemand has now for its expansion, they've left the justification of "Revenge against those who oppressed us!!!" long behind. Their current mission statement seems to be, "Conquest as a precaution against possible future oppression!!!" which is a lot tougher to justify.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Empire's claim to meritocracy seems to... vary.

van Baelsar seems to have been a firm believer in the concept, though that doesn't seem to be the case for most other Imperials we've met. Rhitahtyn and Fordola both got their high rankings under his command, and he even accuses the soldiers of abandoning Rhitahtyn to his death at Cape Westwind (untrue - Rhitahtyn told them to leave so we wouldn't kill them in the battle).

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I can easily see Fordola going higher up the Hirarchy under Giaus as more spots in the legion's high command open up. Although given as Giaus doesn't seem like the kind of Legatus who would kill his officers whenever they messed up, that would probably be limited to when those officers died in battle. Which given that they got those ranks under Giaus, probably means they're really good at their jobs.

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Varis also promoted van Hydrus on merit, though this could be seen as blending with nepotism a bit (van Hydrus helped Varis become Emperor, which he rewarded by giving him the rank of Legatus... if I remember correctly).

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It's the other way round, Regula is a weird case of both people ignoring how good Regula really was as a soldier and not promoting him and then Varis showing nepotism by promoting him to get around the people who actually were ignoring the meritocracy. When Varis was High Legatus he promoted Regula to Legatus of the VIth Legion specifically because the VIth Legion was corrupt. The Ilsabardian territories they were holding were not rebelling against the Empire, but were bribing the VIth Legion to keep their interests in mind instead of Garlmald's. The bribery was so rampant, that the VIth Legion was basically the territory's private army. So Varis promoted Regula specifically because he knew that Regula was loyal to him and that he really was good at what he did and had him clean out all the corruption in the VIth Legion. Regula then backed Varis as Emperor because Varis had seen where he really should have been in the Garlean Hierarchy and put him there.

So yeah, I'd say it's very likely that the Garleans (the ones in the military anyway) ignore the Hierarchy a lot in favor of promoting the people they want rather then the people that deserve it. Given how the Hierarchy works outside the military though (It's more descriptors of people's general jobs and roles then how much power someone has in the military), I see it being harder to abuse.

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On the other hand, the racism coming from nearly every other Imperial is blatant. This is probably hammered home best with both mal Asina's declaration that the Garleans are superior, both physically and intellectually (except their inability to wield magicks)...

...This could be seen as purely due to Zenos' malign influence, but even van Hydrus repeatedly refers to the Eorzeans he interacts with as savages... so it's not quite so contained.

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Savage is a... rather specific term for the Garleans. It actually has the same idea behind it as "Beast Tribe" does (and yes, the Eorzeans borrowed the idea of Beast Tribes from the Garleans). It's specifically a group of people who have summoned an eikon or are willing to associate with people who summon eikons.

That said, oh yeah, the Garleans have racism and culturalism in spades. I'd actually say the best place to see it that isn't overblown is the Prima Vista as that gets rid of most, if not all, of the military overtones of Garlean racism/cultralism.

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Fordola's painful acknowledgement that you won't be treated as an equal unless you prove yourself to be exceptionally superior to Garleans. (There's even a bit of sexism there too, with Imperial soldiers implying Fordola only got her rank by whoring herself out, rather than because she deserved it.)

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The sexism I'm pretty sure is more the XIIth Legion (and probably other Legions) then anything else. The idea of the XIVth Legion saying that to Fordola anywhere Livia could get wind of it is... darkly amusing. Because I have a feeling that's probably what a lot of people outside of the XIVth Legion think of Livia behind her back...

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If memory serves right the "sas" limitation only applies to naturalized citizens - those born into the Empire can (theoretically) go as far as their merit takes them (up to "van," but "wir / yae / zos" is still reserved for the royal family), but integrated peoples can't advance further. My memory might not be right, though, and if it's wrong that is literally institutionalized racism.

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This was how I read it too. However, only 30% of the native population of Garlemald isn't racially Garlean, so statistically speaking, it's probably something most native cultural Garleans never end up worrying about. There's only 14 Legatus, so there's what... maybe 30 Tribunus (14 Lactivicus and 14 Angusticlavius) spots that naturalized citizens can't get too. Even within Garlemald, you'd have to be crazy good to even get a shot at getting into any of those spots. Like, Rhaiahtyn was the first naturalized citizen to even get that high up the Hierarchy...

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Class divides, even among Garleans, are also there. Again, shaky memory, but I believe it was mentioned that van Hydrus came from common birth, which is why so many of the other Imperial Legatuses (nobles) were opposed to his promotion and why there were efforts to sabotage his mission on Azys Lla that led to Sophia's release.

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I'm pretty sure Regula wasn't a commoner. If anything he was probably a noble as he and Varis were childhood friends. People try to sabatoge him because they were preventing him from advancing as far as he should and Varis promoted him to Legatus anyway. And then Regula backed Varis in the War of Succession. So a lot of people don't think he deserves to be a Legatus because of nepotism... only, he probably really did, it's just no one wanted to promote him so Varis had to step in... yeah, that's a really messy situation...

The better example is probably Nero and Cid. They're the same age and both of them are magiteck geniuses. However, Cid is the son of the guy who invented the cerulum engine and is practically a noble. Nero is from some Garlean backwater. Cid gets all the attention and Nero gets none. Cid being Cid is oblivious to all of this. Nero ends up seeing Cid as his rival since the only way he could hope to get people to notice him is if he's better then Cid is. Then Bozja happens and Cid defects to Eorzea. This still doesn't help Nero as now Cid is basically a legend. Literally everything Nero ends up doing is because he's trying to prove he's better then Cid. That's why he joins the Garlean Legions (they get better access to Allagan tech then the Magiteck Academy does) and fixes the Ultima Weapon (so he can be known as the one who solved the primal problem). Nero only stats to stop comparing himself to Cid once he and Cid are on even footing for the first time in their lives in Eorzea. Mostly since the people in Eorzea really do care about what people do and so far Nero's skill at dealing with the problems he finds himself in has been consistently good.

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... while the Empire says it's meritocratic, that's not necessarily true. What things say on paper and how they work in practice are often two different things.

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This is a good rule of thumb to apply to just about everything about the Garlean Empire.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

1 thing i hope is when the empire changes they get rid of the class system such a pain -_-

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Now this I don't know about. We don't have any records about when the Garlean Hierarchy was first implemented as far as I can tell. While I can see Solus coming up with it when the Empire was founded, I can also see it being something the Garlean Republic came up with way back when. There's pretty good evidence that the military ranks pre-date the Hierarchy (Solus was a Legatus in a Legion) and the Garleans have been using subterfuge and fighting wars all while they were a Republic. If it's something Solus introduced to the Empire, I have an easier time seeing the Garleans get rid of it. If it's something old that's been part of Garlean culture for a long time though... I can see them ditching the zoz, yae, wir and aan titles and calling it a day. Those are the only really troublesome ones.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Indeed - but it is the powers that be the bear the fault for those lies, not the rank-and-file. The average Garlean soldier cannot be considered evil for participating in the invasion, as they have been convinced that it is necessary for the preservation of their family and home. It's only slightly different from the situation with the average conscripted soldier, who is ALSO fighting for the preservation of their family and home (except in their case, it is their Garlean masters providing the threat rather than nebulous "barbarians").

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Time for my closing argument on the subject.

If it is acknowledged that it takes lies to construe the Empire's actions as "defensive" or "protective," then the military conflicts it engages the Eorzeans and Domans in cannot be considered "morally grey." Tragic to be sure, since there are lies and threats in the case of forced conscripts, but morally grey? Hardly.

Even in the case of their aggressive actions, the Eorzeans are acting solely in preemptive self-defense against all but certain Imperial retaliation for acts they did not commit. With no official channels to speak to the Empire and explain things, and plenty of reason to believe the Empire wouldn't care anyway, what other choice have they? Should they let their people be killed and enslaved as punishment for crimes they did not commit?

Bear in mind, any conflict not involving both the Eorzean city-states and Garlemald (either the Republic or the Empire) is extraneous to the debate.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

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Regula's situation and promotion is complicated, but if he deserved a higher rank and was denied it (for whatever reason) until Varis directly intervened, that contradicts the Empire's claim to meritocracy.

I rechecked and yes, it is impossible for someone of non-Garlean ancestry to reach tol / van, natural-born Imperial citizen or no. Regardless, how easy or difficult it is to reach those positions is irrelevant - it's literally impossible for non-Garleans to attain those ranks, even if they are deserving of them. Institutionalized racism, right there.

The situation with Garlemald is far more complicated than some posters here credit, thus the best course of action is to simply agree to disagree on elements that are open to personal interpretation. The writers have done an excellent job at creating a nuanced game world with fascinating lore and a richly detailed established history. In my opinion it does the writers a disservice to view their creation through such a narrow window...especially when there's a very long track record of antagonists and situations turning out to be much more in-depth and sympathetic than initially assumed.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Time for my closing argument on the subject.

If it is acknowledged that it takes lies to construe the Empire's actions as "defensive" or "protective," then the military conflicts it engages the Eorzeans and Domans in cannot be considered "morally grey." Tragic to be sure, since there are lies and threats in the case of forced conscripts, but morally grey? Hardly.

Even in the case of their aggressive actions, the Eorzeans are acting solely in preemptive self-defense against all but certain Imperial retaliation for acts they did not commit. With no official channels to speak to the Empire and explain things, and plenty of reason to believe the Empire wouldn't care anyway, what other choice have they? Should they let their people be killed and enslaved as punishment for crimes they did not commit?

Bear in mind, any conflict not involving both the Eorzean city-states and Garlemald (either the Republic or the Empire) is extraneous to the debate.

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Tragedy is the right word for it. The only moral greyness involved is the fact that pretty nearly everyone, even the top-ranked individuals (likely even Varis), had drunk the cool-aid Solus was serving and so honestly believe (or used to believe) they're doing what's best for their nation.

There's no doubt that the Eorzean alliance and their allies are justified in resisting the Garlean's invasion - and I'd go so far as to say that they're justified in dismantling the Garlean war machine, as well. The Garlean leadership have shown absolutely no interest in looking for a peaceful solution save for ONE instance (Asahi's overtures), which turned out to be a trick designed to further solidify the propaganda they use to keep the citizenry backing them. From the Alliance's perspective, Garlemand is a mad dog. Any hand extended in peace will be bitten. The only way to stop its rampage is to put it down, ideally with as few casualties on either side as possible.

To be fair, the Alliance does not know about the Ascian origins of the Garlean war machine, or that Varis is, perhaps, having second thoughts. If they did, they might try a bit of diplomacy with him. As far as they know right now, though, the guy is as uninterested in peace as anyone among the Garlean high command.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The situation with Garlemald is far more complicated than some posters here credit, thus the best course of action is to simply agree to disagree on elements that are open to personal interpretation. The writers have done an excellent job at creating a nuanced game world with fascinating lore and a richly detailed established history. In my opinion it does the writers a disservice to view their creation through such a narrow window...especially when there's a very long track record of antagonists and situations turning out to be much more in-depth and sympathetic than initially assumed.

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Posters here have thoroughly explored the complexities, something which you seldom do. Talking down to people from your high horse without actually having any compelling arguments does not place you in good stead. You are, as always, entirely misrepresenting the positions of those who are arguing against your own.

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Originally Posted by Keever

Posters here have thoroughly explored the complexities, something which you seldom do. Talking down to people from your high horse without actually having any compelling arguments does not place you in good stead. You are, as always, entirely misrepresenting the positions of those who are arguing against your own.

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That's incorrect. There's a vocal little band of posters who add nothing but snark to a thread as they scream about Garlemald and how evil it is at every possible turn. As I've said in the past, you and the other posters involved are more than welcome to contact me in-game or arrange to chat over Discord to smooth out any issues with me. Yet that has been repeatedly declined.

Morality is largely irrelevant to the discussion and is often little more than a method that certain posters use to virtue signal/derail threads.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Institutionalized racism, right there.

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I'm failing to see the issue with it, but then I am not an SJW or a believer in blank slate fantasies.

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Originally Posted by Keever

Posters here have thoroughly explored the complexities, something which you seldom do. Talking down to people from your high horse without actually having any compelling arguments does not place you in good stead. You are, as always, entirely misrepresenting the positions of those who are arguing against your own.

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Did you just come here to gripe? Because that's all you're really doing.

Cilia has been debated on this topic and I consider that Theodric usually goes to some pains to back his arguments through the lore. There are differences in how to interpret the events, Cilia has her spin on it, Theodric his; he is entirely correct in his assessment that Garlemald is more complex than some posters here would like to pretend. He's been debating this on and off for years. Does he need to list every single argument and point each and every time they come up again? If a poster feels they're being "misrepresented" then it's on them to try get their point through. They're not helpless little babes, incapable of doing so.

You, on the other hand, I recall having nothing of any merit to offer on the topic, and I doubt that is set to change. As such, on the topic of high horses, I'd suggest you go first in descending from yours.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

This is a good rule of thumb to apply to just about everything about the Garlean Empire.

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Or any state in the game.

Perhaps the issue is some sort of language barrier? I don't know what to suggest at this point other than to once again state that I am more than willing to agree to disagree when it comes to the subjective elements of the game lore. It seems like I post one thing and some posters claim that I'm saying something completely different. I have never stated that Garlemald is fully justified and without fault. I have repeatedly stated how it needs to undergo reform - for its own benefit - and have highlighted the merits of diplomacy coming into play at some point.

Yet that doesn't change the simple fact that characters such as Gaius, Regula and Varis have been implied and shown to have much more to them than is credited around these parts. A number of posters - myself included - have been pointing out the parallels between FFXII and FFXIV for years where Garlemald is concerned. With each new content patch we've been seeing those parallels get stronger.

We all come here because we - presumably - enjoy FFXIV's lore. We're also going to have different tastes when it comes to characters and nations. I'd humbly suggest that people work to put aside whatever grudges they have with other posters to ensure that there's a more pleasant atmosphere around these parts.