Selling Ultimate Weapon Ultima Is Apparently Not Against the ToS

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You conveniently omitted my follow-up question that was meant to go along with that question:



That is my position: why are people getting so concerned with what others do?

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So you're answering the question with another question. Okay. It's against the rules. Is that enough of a reason? Now will you answer the original question I posed to you, or are you going to throw out another question to deflect?

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

So you're answering the question with another question. Okay. It's against the rules. Is that enough of a reason? Now will you answer the original question I posed to you, or are you going to throw out another question to deflect?

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Go back and read my edit, thank you. Because I had to edit in more thanks to character limits.

Here you go:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don't understand the fascination people these days seem to have with what other people do. And I don't really understand why some people I see discussing this topic--people that do not even raid/participate in the content, or even care about it--suddenly start caring when content sales are involved. Is this really about it being a ToS violation only?

Moral objections are fine; I have objections about things, but there's no point in voicing them when they fall on deaf ears. I just don't understand why people feel the need to start crusades over something like this when it's very clear nothing will be done about it. Just like nothing is ever done about the other ToS violations. So I drop it and don't concern myself with it.

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Re: “against the rules” — so are a myriad of other things. Are you going to start demanding that the rules are enforced with regards to them as well?

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

You've yet to explain this and are continuing to dodge the question. Why does someone have to have cleared content to discuss RMT practices, violations of terms of service and the morals behind buying and selling content clears?

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I'm clearly not HyoMin, but I'd like to present you my thoughts on the matter: The only real reason for someone to get upset/worked up or actually even care about how someone else is getting their clear of that content is "It devalues my achievment if someone else just goes and buys it" - if you havent killed the content in question and havent achieved anything related to it, there is nothing for you to be concerend about. It doesnt devalue anything you achieved, because you never did.
I have a bit of sympathy for those people who actually clear the content by themself - but someone who cant really be concered about their achievment being devalued...? Just getting worked up on the behalf of people who might not even care?

You mention the violation of the ToS - and I assume you refer to the "no account sharing"-policy here - its worth noticing that thats most likely in there so SE wont be responsible in case someone shares their account with someone else and that person just runs with it - its more "You agreed to not share your information, but you did, so we wont help you to get it back" - why else would they care who you share your account with?

In regards to the RMT that we in general most likely all consider annoying: I consider it annoying when its shout-chat trying to sell me gil. If a PF is about trading gil, real money or baby-bunnies for a clear doesnt matter to me.

I'm not fussed about content selling myself either, but I agree with HyoMin: Why are you - and other people - so concerned about what other people do with their time and money when there is no negative effect on your own gameing experience?
If you havent cleared the fights yourself you're not even having your bragging rights cheapend by someone else showing off that shiny Ultimate-Weapon.

I dont understand why you're fighting a fight that doesnt even really concern you - besides maybe seeing those adds in PF, but at the same time I'm seeing far worse and annoying stuff in there on a daily basis...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I'm clearly not HyoMin, but I'd like to present you my thoughts on the matter: The only real reason for someone to get upset/worked up or actually even care about how someone else is getting their clear of that content is "It devalues my achievment if someone else just goes and buys it" - if you havent killed the content in question and havent achieved anything related to it, there is nothing for you to be concerend about. It doesnt devalue anything you achieved, because you never did.

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You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

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But how does any of that cheapen YOUR experience with the game?

Thats my point - how does it make YOU have less fun with the game, less fun playing throught the story, leveling up etc. when someone else just skips that by paying money for it?

Mind you, I'm not a fan of that either, but it also doesnt cheapen my experience of the game if someone else bought their account.

The only tiny point I can grant you is the housing-thing - but by now selling houses, wether if it is for real or ingame money, has become more difficult anyways (and gil is so easy to come by that I wouldnt really consider paying for houses with RMT-money such a strong point.)

At the end of the day: What do YOU lose by someone else throwing money at someone else to do something for them? Except for the houses nothing is really limited in this game - someone else getting the UWU-clear isnt denying you going in there and doing it legit. Someone else paying for an all level 70 character isnt preventing you from achieving that yourself.

Maybe my mind just works differently, but I dont see why it matters how someone else got something in the game...

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

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My personal opinion is why care at all? It expands way past what AxlStream’s opinion of “You haven’t cleared God, why care about UwU” opinion, even though I agree to an extent and see the point he is trying to make.

You cannot control what strangers do with their money. They want to buy an account? A Sigmascape clear? An UCoB/UwU clear? Well, alright then. It’s their money, their choice; I certainly wish I had a few hundred to a few grand to throw around, but it’s whatever at the end of the day. I cannot do anything to stop them. So I just don’t care, and I don’t really understand why others do when making threads about this sort of thing will not stop the practice.



I think what Vidu and I are both getting at is part-“why care about what others do with their money/do in general” and part-“people fail to care about things like Savage/Utlimate in general, or don’t participate in the content usually, but now they suddenly start caring when content selling is involved”.

ADDITION: Re—what Vidu is saying about cheapening experiences-

I also agree with this point. What someone else does doesn’t cheapen things that I have earned in this game. If anything, I see it as they make mine even more worthwhile—I had the skill to clear the content that they had to pay money for, be it real money or gil; I earned my clears, and they bought theirs. I made my account with all its 70s, and they paid someone else for theirs. Doesn’t cheapen all the time and effort I put into it at all.

I think the only one who can devalue their own experiences is themselves. But I suppose that’s just me.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That is my point: why are people getting so concerned with what others do? I don't understand the fascination people these days seem to have with what other people do. And I don't really understand why some people I see discussing this topic--people that do not even raid/participate in the content, or even care about it--suddenly start caring when content sales are involved. Is this really about it being a ToS violation only?

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Yes for some of us its because they are going against the ToS in such an obvious way and yet will probably never be punished. How can we truly go around and want bots that sell Gil for real money banned if we look away when players are doing the same just instead of gil its content. And maybe a part of us are also just a bit angry because one of the FC that does that also has players that use cheats in PVP and sell ranks in it.

Its just utterly frustrating to have people be sometimes banned for smaller things and yet those that go twice against the ToS (RMT and account sharing) are going to continue with it. Its already bad that they on one hand punish someone if they just talk about using a parser in a party and some reported them for that and them ignoring all the obvious parser uses from the streamers even when it included shout outs for mechanics which seemingly disappointed Yoshida a bit.

For me that is just a double standard. Either you allow RMT thus both bots and those people selling can exist or you dont. And either you are fine with a parser as long as nobody is attacked for their numbers or you are not.

I mean if its all about "why care about this, it does not cheapen your experience" then why not just let SE get something out of this by selling those weapons in the mog station? At least those that want just the look of the weapon can simply buy it, SE gets money, its cheaper than buying it from those raiders and all the rest should not care because it does not cheapen the experience. Also why did people want Ultima to stay synch? If it does not cheapen the experience one expansion later than I hope nobody would complain if they decided to still make it unsynch. (Since a recent interview have pointed out that they still discuss this point)

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

My personal opinion is why care at all?

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I think the only one who can devalue their own experiences is themselves. But I suppose that’s just me.

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If it was a solo game, you'd have a point, but it's not a solo game, your experience is shared with others, and thus anything you do to destroy the experience of others is something is a negative. RMT is not "one person selling a tv out of the back of their car", it's someone parking a van on the highway, blocking 2 lanes of traffic with "STOLEN HELICOPTERS ARE FASTER, BUY ONE HERE".

The RMT people cause the very problem they are trying to sell a solution to.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

My personal opinion is why care at all? It expands way past what AxlStream’s opinion of “You haven’t cleared God, why care about UwU” opinion, even though I agree to an extent and see the point he is trying to make.

You cannot control what strangers do with their money. They want to buy an account? A Sigmascape clear? An UCoB/UwU clear? Well, alright then. It’s their money, their choice; I certainly wish I had a few hundred to a few grand to throw around, but it’s whatever at the end of the day. I cannot do anything to stop them. So I just don’t care, and I don’t really understand why others do when making threads about this sort of thing will not stop the practice.

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And this is why a lot more than RMT for selling clears is happening despite ToS. I'm sitting here playing with people who outright admit in chat that they run bots, both leveling and gather bots. Leveling to sell the accounts, and the bots to make gil to sell for RMT. Nothing's done about them. We have players openly showing hacks, including a stated person using them in pvp and then selling rank boosts with it. But I guess I shouldn't care because that's their money, not mine.

Honestly it's so sad that emoting multiple times is taken more seriously than RMT...

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

And this is why a lot more than RMT for selling clears is happening despite ToS. I'm sitting here playing with people who outright admit in chat that they run bots, both leveling and gather bots. Leveling to sell the accounts, and the bots to make gil to sell for RMT. Nothing's done about them. We have players openly showing hacks, including a stated person using them in pvp and then selling rank boosts with it. But I guess I shouldn't care because that's their money, not mine.

Honestly it's so sad that emoting multiple times is taken more seriously than RMT...

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I can understand the frustration, but that frustration is the very reason why I, personally, adopt the “why care” attitude.

I spent time reporting people for running crafting/gathering bots on my server because they were blatantly crashing the consumables market. Nothing was ever done about them despite my reports—I never even got a GM to answer any of them outside of the stock reply the game sends you, and the players walked away unscathed. I wasn’t the only one reporting them. So I decided to just stop bothering with it because you cannot make those who have the power to change things actually do the changing.

I still disagree with the practices, but I have stopped putting forth the effort to report them because nothing is ever done about them. So I just save myself the time and the effort, and opt to continue to play the game as I have always played it—just now with less caring about things that are completely out of my control. Feel free to care if you want to; I just don’t see the reason to when I cannot control other people—how they take action against infractions, how they act, how they spend their money, any of it. I’d rather focus my energies on things I can control for my own peace of mind.

PvE content selling was never something that has bothered me, because I don’t need to partake in it to get what I want—I have more than enough skill to earn my clears, and even if I couldn’t, well I have much better things to spend my money on anyways. And others participating in buying Savage or UwU clears do not devalue my own clears. I can at least understand PvP rank sales because they are more like a “competitive sport” (however loosely you want to apply that term), so I can (somehow, still very loosely) liken it to someone cheating in something like the Olypmics to steal first place from someone who earned it. But PvE doesn’t have rankings like that, and someone buying an UwU clear in no way prevents you (general you) from also getting one, nor should it devalue the time and effort you put into it. They only belittle the achievement if you let them, and if such an achievement is so easily devalued, then just what kind of stock was placed in it from the beginning?

I’m stepping out of this thread now because it’s just going to be more back and forths of clashing opinions. People who want to discuss it more are free to ping me on Discord if they really want to.

I think this is a morally grey area and what is morally acceptable or not will vary from person to person. To me the impact of merc runs is not the same as someone actually cheating or exploiting the game.

To me someone using an exploit to kill kefka under 1 minute or someone duplicating items falls within the unacceptable side. Gil farmed by hundreds of bots can destabilize the economy by introducing too much currency, and such falls under the unacceptable side.

As far as I know the people selling mercenary runs are clearing the content legit, no exploits involved, and there's no currency being generated so the market is unaffected, so why would I care if someone bought a clear?

Someone mentioned other forms of RMT. Player-sold gold = doesn't affect the economy if the gil was not botted, the gil generation is still within the limits expected by the devs. Account selling? No much different than those level up boosts, as long as no cheats were used to level them, who cares?

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Originally Posted by alimdia

As far as I know the people selling mercenary runs are clearing the content legit, no exploits involved, and there's no currency being generated so the market is unaffected, so why would I care if someone bought a clear?

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Forgive me if it's already fixed, but I'm pretty sure there's currently a way to glitch UWU to stand there and let you beat the boss to death. Square already knows and it's marked a critical bug, so no need to describe how.

But it could be possible they use this method, not to mention the already known fact they take control of your account. They already refuse to respond to any in game tells, so I wouldn't put it past these parties to abuse a game breaking glitch for the fight too.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Forgive me if it's already fixed, but I'm pretty sure there's currently a way to glitch UWU to stand there and let you beat the boss to death. Square already knows and it's marked a critical bug, so no need to describe how.

But it could be possible they use this method, not to mention the already known fact they take control of your account. They already refuse to respond to any in game tells, so I wouldn't put it past these parties to abuse a game breaking glitch for the fight too.

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First and foremost, why would them ignoring tells be proof of exploiting content? I tend to ignore tells from strangers too, especially if they're aggressive or rude. If someone went out of their way to criticise them selling runs, what motivation do they have to respond?

As for taking advantage of this exploit, why? Elysium two WF statics have cleared UwU multiple times now. Why in the world would they risk their accounts using an exploit that provides very little advantage when SE will ban you for them as proven with Ungarmax? The exploit you're referring to is not remotely long enough that you could say, ignore a mechanic or have multiple deaths and still clear. Ultima eventually just ends the fight regardless.

Spin to win and other prior known exploits have been a very good way to get a ban. Bourne has this bang on. A lot of people got burned over Ungarmax, but people have learned their lesson over other bugs pretty much since Titan HM.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

To me someone using an exploit to kill kefka under 1 minute falls within the unacceptable side.

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Why? If they bought the clear, they still wouldn't have earned it and any exploit would be limited to the party.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Gil farmed by hundreds of bots can destabilize the economy by introducing too much currency, and such falls under the unacceptable side.

As far as I know there's no currency being generated so the market is unaffected, so why would I care if someone bought a clear?

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There are buyers that pay with real money, buyers that pay with gil obtained through bots/RMT and buyers that pay with clean gil. If it was so easy to get the millions of gil needed through legit means, the sellers would be charging more than they already do.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

when SE will ban you for them as proven with Ungarmax?

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No one was permanently banned for using Ungarmax. If an account was permanently banned, that was because it already had some penalties.

Back to the topic:

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

May as well have gil sellers in party finder

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"selling gil, contact discord for more info"

According to some in this topic, that should be allowed in the party finder. It doesn't say it's for real money and it could be in exchange for other services. If the GMs took it down, there would be no reason to not use the same discretion when dealing with the ads in the OP. If they didn't take it down, then that could allow gil selling for real money across the data center. Just goes to show how flawed the current system is.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

And where would these screenshots come from? The buyers themselves? A jilted team member of the static who did not get his share of the cut? A Jealous FC member? A special investigative GM who stalks a advertiser but likely lead to a dead end due to that advertiser being on a dummy account?

Their are just so many loop holes. In the end though yes, something can be done about all this, but gotta look at it from a Suits perspective. Would it make them more money in the end to justify the cost of man hours and personnel to dedicate to something small like this?

In the end, its all about the Moola.

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Please bother to read my post in full before you ramble off.

RMT of all kinds should be banned.

Y'all would throw a fit if SE sold clears in the mogstation. How is that different from you know who? At least SE wouldn't charge what was it? Almost a thousand dollars or something? I'd have to find the Reddit post.

Don't be a hypocrite. If you think it's ok for these people to sell clears, then it's ok for there to be week 2 instant raid clears for all content in mogstation.

End of effing story.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Why? If they bought the clear, they still wouldn't have earned it and any exploit would be limited to the party.

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The majority of DF players don't earn the clears they get in any content, you can beat Tsukuyomi being mostly dead and having other people carry you, the same could be said of pretty much any other dungeon where dps do less damage than tanks and healers do nothing but heal spam. Any unsync clear is not earned. Yet none of that matters, why? Because those clears are legit, and as far as we know so are ultimate/savage clears.

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There are buyers that pay with real money, buyers that pay with gil obtained through bots/RMT and buyers that pay with clean gil. If it was so easy to get the millions of gil needed through legit means, the sellers would be charging more than they already do.

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As far as paying with gil goes, the price is determined by how much people are willing to pay, undercutting happens even with selling clears. It's not up to content sellers to police how people are getting their gil before paying, just like you don't audit every person who uses the marketboard to make sure you're not getting "dirty" gil.

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No one was permanently banned for using Ungarmax. If an account was permanently banned, that was because it already had some penalties.

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Bourne never said permanently banned.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I think this is a morally grey area and what is morally acceptable or not will vary from person to person. To me the impact of merc runs is not the same as someone actually cheating or exploiting the game.

To me someone using an exploit to kill kefka under 1 minute or someone duplicating items falls within the unacceptable side. Gil farmed by hundreds of bots can destabilize the economy by introducing too much currency, and such falls under the unacceptable side.

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But the question remains, why is using an exploit worse? I mean that also does not destroy the experience of a person that cleared it the normal way, right? Also its not like those that sell those clears are not doing any of the other stuff you mentioned. We had some of them using cheats in PVP and talked about it and they are also selling PVP ranks with it (something which does affect people way more than more gil, since the top 100 have special limited mounts). There is also some talk that some of those are using gathering bots and one FC even owns a whole ward..

And who knows what some of them are still doing. In the end RMT is against the ToS. Selling a clear for money means that real money was traded. And for Ultimate you even have account sharing.

IMO SE should take a clear stance in this. If you dont want parser then punish everyone that uses it (especially if call outs make mechanics easier..)and if you dont do that you cant just turn around and punish some that are just talking about it in a random group without any attack. If you punish RMT then do it with every single RMT. Otherwise its just double standards.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Please bother to read my post in full before you ramble off.

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I did young lady and again, loop holes in everything. Who would provide these screenshots? Where would they be obtained? And why would they even accept them if given? With today's technology, its very easy to manipulate and doctor up pictures, screenshots and such to the point that if I wanted to, I could accuse someone of RMT who is completely innocent, but I placed in a fake chat log and doctored it to the finest detail, that it will look completely authentic. If GM's accepted that from any person capable of doing something like that, you would have someone blatantly abusing his knowledge and skill into the creation of these fakes to get banned anyone who upsets him.

GMs state they will accept screenshots, even video proof, but video can also be manipulated, though, significantly harder to do. Thats why they wont ban right away even when provided "indisputable" evidence, unless they investigate themselves, or the source is from someone they fully trust, aka not any player, no matter who he/she is.

But in all honesty, our ingame and forum moderation team is not best in class. From a 1 to 10 scale, FFXIV's mods are a 4, due to several negative factors. While mods from certain other mmos, one Western, and one Korean that are popular right now, are 8 and 6 respectively. Ours does the best they can but they are tied down by SE of Japan's suits and what they say goes.

So pretty much, just gotta deal with it and put it out of mind, it wont change.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

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Beautiful. I truly have no idea why there are people who cannot understand my point. Asking me or anyone else "Why do you care?" or "You haven't done x, why should you care?" isn't even a question that's relevant. I could make a list of why I care but it would be met with "Well, I don't!" and I'd be like "Okay? But I, and others do so... point?"

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But the question remains, why is using an exploit worse?

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Because an exploit getting traction will tempt people to try it themselves. Should it go unpunished, it will become increasingly widespread, which does impact the overall game. Look at all the complaints surrounding bots. SE's incompetency has allowed it become worse. While I don't necessarily agree with mercenary work, it comes with a price tag that will heavily deter the vast majority of people who either don't have the disposable cash or think it's utterly asinine to spend that kind of money on a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

IMO SE should take a clear stance in this. If you dont want parser then punish everyone that uses it (especially if call outs make mechanics easier..)and if you dont do that you cant just turn around and punish some that are just talking about it in a random group without any attack. If you punish RMT then do it with every single RMT. Otherwise its just double standards.

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Parsers are going nowhere. It would destroy their raid scene, and they know it. Not to mention, unless they install client side detection, people will get around it fairly easily. RMT, on the other hand, does hurt the actual game. Keep in mind, indifference does not mean all of us agree with RMT. I simply choose not to let myself be bothered by it when Square refuses to actually do much of anything.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

Damn shame. Pretty redheads should always be listened to.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

I did young lady[...]

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Not to be Off Topic but mate.... why do you talk like that. There's a time and a place to sound like some Seasoned Handsome Man or whatever, and this ain't one of them.

I don't have much else to add except... I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be pretty embarrassed if I had to pay someone to beat content for me, even if no one else knew. Having a pal help you out by carrying you through something where you just keep dying is one thing, but literally handing your account over to someone else is. Sad.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Bourne never said permanently banned.

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And that's why people still did it. People think Ungarmax is the first case of game breaking? If they haven't hit at least 3+ day bans yet, they probably aren't gonna get perma'd. In which case, why're they so worried? Assuming these parties do these methods, when you consider the account sharing means the person might have to work with a non-meta job (oh no), that'd just make the easiest. So they abuse it, and let's say they got 10 buyers at $1200. Square notices, gives them a 9 day ban. Okay. And they just made 12 grand. I doubt they'd care they got suspended. Actually, they might not care if that gets terminated, they could just buy another account with full 360+.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

So they abuse it, and let's say they got 10 buyers at $1200.

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Do people really pay $1200 for that? That's lunacy!

You'd be surprised how much some people are willing to pay for fake bragging rights.

Buying a Ultimate win gives them an excuse to lord it over everyone else how much better they are, it goes roughly like "HAHA! I cleared Ultimate (Even though i actually didn't) That makes me awesome and better than you!"

Certain people will pay any price in order to look good.

And then the rest of the playerbase has to put up with their unjustified ego-tripping.
Even more obnoxius when they fail even basic mechanics in low tier content like 4-man dungeons or story trials and then blame everyone else because "I cleared Ultimate! I cannot fail! The rest of you noobs must be the ones at fault!"

I guess they don't realize that doing something that may put you on a pedestal also comes with higher expectations. Goofing up your rotation or accidentally standing in an AoE is just whatever if you're some random schmuck. If you've got something that's prestigious that usually takes some skill or dedication to get, doing those dumb things is even worse. Got further to fall.

I'm personally not impressed by any flashy items or titles people have. But if you do have them, I expect you to act like you know what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

You'd be surprised how much some people are willing to pay for fake bragging rights.

Buying a Ultimate win gives them an excuse to lord it over everyone else how much better they are, it goes roughly like "HAHA! I cleared Ultimate (Even though i actually didn't) That makes me awesome and better than you!"

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This actually happens far less than you think. For one, sellers will rarely upload parses of their sale clears, thus it's very easy to find out if someone's lying about it. Likewise, sellers typically hate people who brag like this and some will outright reject offers from them afterwards. Regardless, people willing to spend this much money on clears is exceedingly rare. Hence why the prices are so high. There simply isn't a demand, which allows certain FCs to charge significantly more than they would be able to otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I guess they don't realize that doing something that may put you on a pedestal also comes with higher expectations.

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Apparently not, since world first fc's seem to think being common RMTs is ok. Not sure why people are mad at the buyers for bragging, when they'd have zero to brag about if the fcs just didn't sell anything at all.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Apparently not, since world first fc's seem to think being common RMTs is ok. Not sure why people are mad at the buyers for bragging, when they'd have zero to brag about if the fcs just didn't sell anything at all.

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Any person with half a brain cell thats decent at raiding can tell a bought run from a real run.

And even if they couldnt tell, its obvious from their play.

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Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Any person with half a brain cell thats decent at raiding can tell a bought run from a real run.

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the one who sold them the run is responsible, and is the worse player. No one forced them to take that person's money.

I know I said I was done with this thread, but I just want to say in response to this:

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the one who sold them the run is responsible, and is the worse player. No one forced them to take that person's money.

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No one forced the buyer to drop $1,200 USD on a clear for virtual content either. If you want to apply culpability to this situation, both parties share it; it was a mutual agreement—a shared transaction. You don’t get to put all the blame on the sellers or call them Number One Bad Guy when the buyers seem to be more than happy to start throwing their money around for shinies instead of actually doing the content themselves. Just saying.

You could buy like 6.5 years of game time for $1200, or you could pay someone to play the game for you.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

No one forced the buyer to drop $1,200 USD on a clear for virtual content either.

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The raiders never had to sell or advertising selling runs, and there's only a tiny amount of them capable of doing ultimate content. They could have easily just done what they used to do with clear videos on world first races, have a mutually agreed moratorium on selling ultimate runs. they didn't. So to me, they get more of the blame for enabling people. The buyers are already in error, but the sellers chose to continue in it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because an exploit getting traction will tempt people to try it themselves. Should it go unpunished, it will become increasingly widespread, which does impact the overall game.

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I am not saying that they should not punish those that use an exploit and I also dont mean that they should punish those that use a parser. I am just pointing out that they should have a clear stance on these things and follow through with it on all cases. Accept parser for streamers? Fine, then dont punish regular players if they talk about it. Have someone use an exploit and punish them? Fine, then punish all those other cheaters too. Punish people that are selling Gil for money? Fine but punish those that sell content for money too.

That is my only point in this. That they should not take double standards in this. Either punish both sides for the same breaking or none.

They might get away with it through the game but they won't get away with it through the law. They're selling a product and getting away with tax evasion. Even Patreon donations are taxed. If the government finds out about how much they are making, they'll want their cut. (Of course taking all the regional mumbo jumbo into consideration).

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Someone else spending money to let a person play the game for them so they can get a shiny weapon that they didn't earn has no effect on me or anyone else. If it makes them happy then let it be. I don't understand why this matters to people. Would it be okay if it was free? Is it just because it's against ToS? No there is definitely a hint of something else... Idk it's whatever.

That's also why SE prolly doesn't really enforce it hard, since it doesn't really effect anyone negatively unlike gil bots and the economy.

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Someone buying gil through an RMT doesn't really effect me either. If anything, it actually helps me. The more people that buy gil, the more things are purchased off the market board, the bigger sale I can make. The more I can charge and jack up my prices.
That doesn't make it okay though.

Anyone caught selling in-game services for real life money should have their account permanently deleted. That some players are bold enough to openly advertise their services through the party finder means that there's no real fear on their part. That needs to change.

I am so tired of high end PvP and PvE being infested with this sort of thing. Even a handful of players doing it affects those of us who are trying to find a legitimate group to clear content with as it lessens the pool of players seeking to tackle high end content in a legitimate manner that aren't already tied to a specific group.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Anyone caught selling in-game services for real life money should have their account permanently deleted. That some players are bold enough to openly advertise their services through the party finder means that there's no real fear on their part. That needs to change.

I am so tired of high end PvP and PvE being infested with this sort of thing. Even a handful of players doing it affects those of us who are trying to find a legitimate group to clear content with as it lessens the pool of players seeking to tackle high end content in a legitimate manner that aren't already tied to a specific group.

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Oh that note, I should mention that not only do they sell primal, savage, and ultimate clears, but they will also sell you win trade services for PvP rewards. Yes, they sell win trading.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I am not saying that they should not punish those that use an exploit and I also dont mean that they should punish those that use a parser. I am just pointing out that they should have a clear stance on these things and follow through with it on all cases. Accept parser for streamers? Fine, then dont punish regular players if they talk about it. Have someone use an exploit and punish them? Fine, then punish all those other cheaters too. Punish people that are selling Gil for money? Fine but punish those that sell content for money too.

That is my only point in this. That they should not take double standards in this. Either punish both sides for the same breaking or none.

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In that case, we agree. Unfortunately, SE seemingly cannot be bothered or are too incompetent to actually do this. The cynicism in me believes they don't because it doesn't impact the game enough to where they lose money, and punishing people may. That, or they legitimately believe it's not as big an issue in NA/EU.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

In that case, we agree. Unfortunately, SE seemingly cannot be bothered or are too incompetent to actually do this. The cynicism in me believes they don't because it doesn't impact the game enough to where they lose money, and punishing people may. That, or they legitimately believe it's not as big an issue in NA/EU.

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None of that would surprise me. (I mean how long ago was that one exploid reported?) But that also does not give much respect for them either. x)