Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

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How is that relevant to FFXIV when a 3 year old simply cannot play it by themselves? It would be too far beyond a 3 year old's comprehension to likely even get by the character creator let alone get to level 50+ on any job.

You're seriously reaching....like you are just floating in a nebula 5million light years away from planet Earth at this point.

Think the main issue is that people expect a certain level of baseline play that is not enforced by the developers in a random setting. The bar the developers set as the benchmark for baseline play is fairly low, and while many within the community may not agree with said reason, without voting with our wallet or time said benchmark probably will not change.

It is frustrating, but until the developers start to enforce better play either because the community dictates it ( which I do not think will ever happen since I am fairly certain we are in the vast minority )or the developers philosophy changes majority of the content will be based around the lowest common denominator, which will result in people that spam one button over getting pushed through content. Sadly if the developers do not care enough why should the players and I think that is why poor play seems more welcomed in FFXIV.

I am not trying to defend poor play, or players that feel it is okay to waste the time of others, but I simply have come to terms with the fact that at times if I roll the dice I will roll low a get a hellish group that has the healer and tank not eat the fruit in AV--which happened not that long ago.

One thing to consider with people using non-combo'd finishere, they might have used job potion and misread tooltip for skill. They might think it's best due to where it mentions combo potency and not knowing that number only applies when done finisher to combo.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

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Im sorry, but someone who is unable to grasp the concept and the rules of the game might not be well suited for that part of it. As much as I love to be inclusive, if a 3 year old cant play tic tac toe because he lacks the ability to grasp the concept of the rules, then he gets a piece of paper, a pen, and can scribble for himself, all day long, and enjoy himself like this. And if he wants to scribble with me then yes, I can do that, but if I want to play tic tac toe, I will have to look for someone else to play that with.

And, just a small anecdote here, I often find myself with sproutling tanks in duty finder who have no clue how to tank. At all. And guess what I do? I give them tips on aggro management, explain skills and the game engine, and help them understand the game better. And yes, I know that FFXIV is a tad bit more complex than tic tac toe.

Why is it acceptable? Because what can you actually DO about it? Nothing besides accept it. There ya go.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

DISCLAIMER: ... I am venting ...

Why does it feel like a person playing the game poorly is considered acceptable behavior?

... examples ...

These wouldn't be issues if advice is taken, but so often, I'm either outright ignored when I try to help, or backlashed back for daring to try...

I don't want to be going with people that perform very poorly and refuse to take advice...

I just needed to get this off my chest..

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The question you are asking is the wrong question. The question I feel you should be asking is "Why does it feel so wrong when players I encounter in content refuse to accept the advice so freely given?"

The answer is ... well, there really isn't a good answer.

The responses here have, once again, devolved into some of the typical 'black knight' vs 'white knight' arguments that entirely miss the point of the post ... the need to write about that feeling.

I hear people talk a lot about the difficulty and gating of Shinryu but I managed to clear it first time without any wipes, so I guess I never saw it myself. I actually haven't gone back to it at all either. Steps of faith however I did have to wait for the nerf to actually clear it. The difference between these two is that Steps of Faith required good group coordination in order to do mechanics and activate the cannons properly, where Shinryu only requires that you follow AOE mechanics and the one button time event. It has been a while though so I might not be remember Shinryu correctly but I do remember in detail my problem with Steps of Faith were trying to keep everyone healed over a vast arena and people tended to scatter so far that there was no way to be in range of all of them at the same time. And AOE healing was out of the question then obviously since some might be in range but not everyone. I guess the point of this post is that Steps of Faith required actual group effort while Shinryu is just a boss fight heavy with AOE mechanics.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

1. Boss FATES you know those things nobody does that teaches cooperation and getting out of the bad.
2. And where are they pray tell to get the gear they need? Oh wait yeah the dungeon they're in to replace that bad gear with.

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Quests give you gear, especially your job and msq quests. Additionally, as people seem to forget, we have npc vendors.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Why is it acceptable? Because what can you actually DO about it? Nothing besides accept it. There ya go.

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No. No you don't. That's such a defeatist mindset it's terrible.

Don't mind me, I'm just reminiscing about the dozens upon dozens of noob GLDs I had to gently drill sergeant through Brayflox's Longstop in my long-ago quest to obtain the full Infantry and Battlemage sets.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Why is it acceptable? Because what can you actually DO about it? Nothing besides accept it. There ya go.

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we can stop carrying poor players through content, either by teaching them how to do it right, kicking them or we can leave the content (works best when playing tank).

but this requires work / time we are giving up to send a message and we have to deal with the backlash of the poor player, and this doesn't go in hand with the instant gratification and speedrun mindset in this community...

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Why is it acceptable? Because what can you actually DO about it? Nothing besides accept it. There ya go.

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What a great mindset you have. No wonder people stop helping others.

What I do not get is how some people feel others should be expected to help others, but then go on to shame those that bash others for playing poorly. While I am not saying this has happened in this thread, I have seen it happen. Why is the expectation of helping others reasonable but the expectation of people that queue for content have a basic understanding of the game. If they do not, then that is what party finder / friends are for.

Either way this community really needs to stop going into content with expectations when it comes to randoms, or if they have certain expectations simply use the PF or run said content with friends. Either way expectations are a gamble but from my personal experience more often then not lead to disappointment when it comes to random people.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

No. No you don't. That's such a defeatist mindset it's terrible.

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People like to watch when such drama starts from afar because it gives them something entertaining. But once they themselves get involved in one of these arguments, the heads can't disappear fast enough between the shoulders.
Rather bite the bullet and go through the run with its errors and bad people, than risking emotional abuse in the chat.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

One thing to consider with people using non-combo'd finishere, they might have used job potion and misread tooltip for skill. They might think it's best due to where it mentions combo potency and not knowing that number only applies when done finisher to combo.

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My example with the WAR was actually level 54. It's impossible for it to be a booster. Although that kind of brings up the other things that boosted jobs have 0 tutorial.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

My example with the WAR was actually level 54. It's impossible for it to be a booster. Although that kind of brings up the other things that boosted jobs have 0 tutorial.

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Lets be fair here. Even if people boost their jobs, I've seen some are better than those who have every 70 almost and played for years.

To make some decent effort into this thread now, why am I or anyone else obligated to do more so you can get a win or even farm content? Why are you expecting US to play good, when we can't do the same to you? Why is it elitist to help someone out or talk about their error and mistakes? Why is it suddenly a job to try WIN for the TEAM in a big PVE game? Why are you thinking you wiping us is fun? Why do you even have the mindset to even think of one or more of the questions I asked? Someone please reply to me on this, the people who have those mindsets and please don't ignore, I've seen too many of them in here already.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

But because for a lot of people this game becomes a job, they end up just taking everything so serious even beyond what they should.

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When you play a Pve game just what FFXIV is, your goal is to win and if you farm, your goal is to farm as much you can in a shorter time and tje chance of the loot is increased by how fast the runs are done. I farmed sophia ex the other week and everyone, YES EVERYONE in the group got it because the fight lasted only 3 min and half, vs those 5 wipes then 1 kill groups i've been in before. Why is it a job to play better for others? All people like yourself can argue with is ''its a game not a job''. Playing the game and being better at it is not a job, so please stop make that as an excuse. You think it's honestly any better you sitting around making it worse for 3-7-23 other people, because you think it makes the game a ''job''? Like an example here.. you said taking the game too serious is making it a job. What about those guys with kids, a job all day long hobbies like outside playing games like myself, I go to the gym 5 times a week... Now I work 8 hours and I do 2 hours of gym, so pretty much with traveling I have spent another 1 hour... So, I come home, I play the game, I want to get my shit done because its mimimal time, but hey, let's pretend you are in my group and I can't get it done, because you decided its too much effort to even try, so you gonna sit back and say it's a job doing so, what do you honestly think the rest of the group would say? They probably be ashamed of your attitude, I would.

I would love you to reply to every single questions I have as well.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Lets be fair here. Even if people boost their jobs, I've seen some are better than those who have every 70 almost and played for years.

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Yes that's true. I don't have issues with the job boost outside of not having a small tutorial. I've ran into people with the name on their shire gear fitting the catagory that my rant was talking about, where if the tutorial made them do something, then there'd be even less of an excuse.

But my rant was just the general extremes. Not just boosts. For the actual most part I've not had issues with boosters. I personally believe that at the end of the day, a good player will do fine with a boost. A bad player won't learn regardless.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Why is it acceptable? Because what can you actually DO about it? Nothing besides accept it. There ya go.

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I disagree.

Just because I remain silent about the NIN that dies to everything in Rabanastre, and is doing less damage than the healer that has to keep stopping DPS to raise them; or the tank that won't use any cooldowns for tankbusters; or Alliance C, who has let their Sand Sphere wipe the raid three times; doesn't mean I accept the behavior. It means I don't want a confrontation, though if I'm in a bad (and less tolerable mood), I will say something. Or kick a problem player.

Silence does not equate to acceptance.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Yes that's true. I don't have issues with the job boost outside of not having a small tutorial. I've ran into people with the name on their shire gear fitting the catagory that my rant was talking about, where if the tutorial made them do something, then there'd be even less of an excuse.

But my rant was just the general extremes. Not just boosts. For the actual most part I've not had issues with boosters. I personally believe that at the end of the day, a good player will do fine with a boost. A bad player won't learn regardless.

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This game needs a dummy strike like blade and soul with mechanics. They also need to add job turtorials to teach players step by step how things works too. I'm honestly mind numbed why square enix haven't done this. They really need to and they should also lock people out from the actually content, by letting them pass sky sea and earth first with mechanics on the dummy.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I disagree.

Just because I remain silent about the NIN that never does trick attack and if they do its every 2 mins, so basically 3 times in a 8 min fight instead of 8 times.

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Fixed it :p

I’m not sure what people are so at odds about. There will always be players that others will consider unfathomably bad. That’s just a fact. They aren’t just going to vanish or stop playing the game no matter what anyone does or says. I would imagine most people are just trying to get through their stuff and not looking to make a scene, but that doesn’t mean everyone is “accepting” bad play. Fact is, every player that plays at least decently is not going to flat out refuse to run anything at all with sub par players. Those who have a lower tolerance level will vote kick or leave themselves, and that’s all you can do.

In order for there to be fewer sub par players in the game SE would have to ramp the difficulty on everything to weed out the weak, and I seriously doubt they will do that as there would then be far far fewer people playing the game. Challenging content is available for those who want it, and vote kick is available for if you manage to wind up in said content with someone who only wants to press two buttons and make no effort to move.

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Originally Posted by Tempest222

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I mostly posted this to just get some frustration out. I know they'll always exist. I was just getting annoyed with the times it was happening because of the responses I'd get trying to help, as a person with the Mentor status no less (Really, wow. A Mentor that tried to explain in a nice way how mechanics work? They exist?) It makes me not want to do the mission anymore, and I'm sure people don't want their tanks leaving them behind mid dungeon because they didn't enjoy spending 10 minutes killing the first boss.

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people, but that's never going to work because people don't come from the same backgrounds or acquire the same skillsets.
Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? I don't have to clear high-end content. it's just another thing to do on the list. I can even play something else if I hit a wall. meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet?

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There ya go, you didn't read the OP at all. It looks that you are using this thread to vent your frustrations, more than anything. I understand that, but I'd advice you to read it again, carefully. No one here is demanding what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

There ya go, you didn't read the OP at all. It looks that you are using this thread to vent your frustrations, more than anything. I understand that, but I'd advice you to read it again, carefully. No one here is demanding what you're saying.

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eh, you're right on that part(I read it after) and for that I'll apologize for just whining all over the place. but if you do look at the OP's examples, everything is a pretty exaggerated scenario. exceedingly basic, shorthand examples with few details and particularly bad practices. these players do exist but the examples are pretty hyperbolic.

what I'm getting at is that people who do that are not people whose standards I would put myself in service to.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people. . . .Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? . . . .meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

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Not to be rude or anything, but it’s highly ironic that you’re talking about elitist attitudes when your post reeks of its own type of elitism....

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

if you do look at the OP's examples, everything is a pretty exaggerated scenario. exceedingly basic, shorthand examples with few details and particularly bad practices. these players do exist but the examples are pretty hyperbolic.

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I’m not sure how much you have frequented the OF, but I would highly recommend reading The Tales of the Duty Finder thread. While they’re all personal experiences, I feel like the thread probably does a decent enough job of proving that the types of players OP has mentioned in his opening post do exist—probably in larger numbers than you think.

If you want more quantifiable examples that are not a personal account, I would suggest just browsing the lowest percentiles on a certain website that everyone here loves to hate. People dislike parses and logs, but they certainly don’t lie.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

What a great mindset you have. No wonder people stop helping others.

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There's going to be subpar players no matter what you do, and those players can be subpar for any number of reasons. I'm not arrogant enough to think I can solve their problems or think that I deserve to only play with people who meet whatever arbitrary standard I've set for them. I never said don't help if you can, but the sooner you accept that you can't change the world/human nature the better off you'll be.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

or think that I deserve to only play with people who meet whatever arbitrary standard I've set for them.

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To be fair the standard of a tank tanking, a healer healing, and a DPS trying to do damage is set by the game not us.

Otherwise why does the game even have the roles: Healer, Tank, DPS? There would be no point if the game was not forcing a specific standard.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people, but that's never going to work because people don't come from the same backgrounds or acquire the same skillsets.
Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? I don't have to clear high-end content. it's just another thing to do on the list. I can even play something else if I hit a wall. meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

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Congratulations. You have joined the cavalcade of people who lacks basic reading comprehension skills. The OP went out of their way to make this thread as diplomatic as possible, yet you're one throwing around insults. How ironic.

I also didn't realize asking people to press 1-2-3 in sequence required some additional skillset unique to "elitists." I suppose the advance steps will be adding 4-5-6. Wouldn't want to make it too difficult.

Edit: Fair enough on your apology.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not to be rude or anything, but it’s highly ironic that you’re talking about elitist attitudes when your post reeks of its own type of elitism....

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"Distrust" is the impression I was going for. I don't trust people who make hyperbolic judgements enough to allow them to hold me to their standards and you shouldn't either. that goes for my standards as well, you shouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by what I consider acceptable. You have no reason to trust my judgement and I have no reason to trust yours so any of us demanding that the other does is as good a reason to throw the other in the trash as far as I'm concerned.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/n...eply&p=4518489
I’m not sure how much you have frequented the OF, but I would highly recommend reading The Tales of the Duty Finder thread. While they’re all personal experiences, I feel like the thread probably does a decent enough job of proving that the types of players OP has mentioned in his opening post do exist—probably in larger numbers than you think.

If you want more quantifiable examples that are not a personal account, I would suggest just browsing the lowest percentiles on a certain website that everyone here loves to hate. People dislike parses and logs, but they certainly don’t lie.

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I don't frequent the OF and I don't really plan to. I was here reading on another topic linked from Reddit(which I also rarely browse). I'm well aware of these players as I've been a moderately active tank and healer in DF for about 3 years now. but they're easy examples and neither you nor I have any real idea how common they are.

as for FFlogs, the only thing I truly hate about them is that the site compiles my information from other peoples' parses. if the site only showcased the data of the player that uploaded it I'd have zero complaints. it's purely a privacy thing.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Congratulations. You have joined the cavalcade of people who lacks basic reading comprehension skills. The OP went out of their way to make this thread as diplomatic as possible, yet you're one throwing around insults. How ironic.

I also didn't realize asking people to press 1-2-3 in sequence required some additional skillset unique to "elitists." I suppose the advance steps will be adding 4-5-6. Wouldn't want to make it too difficult.

Edit: Fair enough on your apology.

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I'm just the "quick to get heated, quick to cool" sort. I also have some pretty big attention span problems(like lists X_X). I can make quick judgement calls so tanking/healing has been my main thing over the years, but dpsing oftentimes calls for an outright 18 skill opening rotation that I literally cannot juggle all in order. that was one of the reasons I couldn't play HW WAR and played PLD/AST/SCH instead.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

"Distrust" is the impression I was going for. I don't trust people who make hyperbolic judgements enough to allow them to hold me to their standards and you shouldn't either. that goes for my standards as well, you shouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by what I consider acceptable. You have no reason to trust my judgement and I have no reason to trust yours so any of us demanding that the other does is as good a reason to throw the other in the trash as far as I'm concerned.

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The standards I hold myself to and the standards I hold randoms to are as different as night and day. I am far more critical of my own performance than I am of other people’s, unless they start talking big. Then I expect them to have the performance to back it up: if you’re going to talk like your the big man on campus with tons of orange parses under your belt, then I want to see proof that you can live up to what you preach.

My most basic standards vary depending on the content I am in, but generally, in casual content, I expect:
—tanks to hold hate, use their stance (if applicable), and to know their most basic 1-2-3 aggro combo
—healers to heal (and if they are a veteran healer decked out in Savage or high ilvl gear, I expect some juggling of DPS and healing), and not stand around idle for the majority of the duty
—DPS to DPS (I don’t care too much about their rotation [barring examples of things like Ice Mages or BRDs that don’t use their songs], and I don’t expect some optimized opener making use of every oGCD/food/pots or whatever, but I had better see some AOE in a large pull—nothing grinds my gears more than DPS refusing to AOE a pack of 7-8 mobs)

In things like farm parties for Extremes/Savage, my expectations are a little higher. I do not expect orange-parse levels of play, but I do expect a certain level of competency when it comes to completing Extreme/Savage content. If the party is for a farm, I expect the party to farm the fight quickly and efficiently—especially if their PF advertised “fast, quick runs; high DPS; no mistakes or kick” (ironically, it’s usually the PF leader doing the lowest in terms of contribution, and making the most mistakes). I also do not appreciate when people enter into farm parties having either never cleared, or cleared only once and just expect the rest of the group to carry them through the content. You want to farm? Then please pull your weight like the rest of the group.

I’ve asked this many times in the course of this thread, and have never received an answer that was not some illogical tangent or analogy, but what exactly is it about asking players to do the absolute bare minimum required of their job/role that is some incredibly high standard?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The standards I hold myself to and the standards I hold randoms to are as different as night and day. I am far more critical of my own performance than I am of other people’s, unless they start talking big. Then I expect them to have the performance to back it up: if you’re going to talk like your the big man on campus with tons of orange parses under your belt, then I want to see proof that you can live up to what you preach.

My most basic standards vary depending on the content I am in, but generally, in casual content, I expect:
—tanks to hold hate, use their stance (if applicable), and to know their basic 1-2-3 aggro combo
—healers to heal (and if they are a veteran healer decked out in Savage or high ilvl gear, I expect some juggling of DPS and healing), and not stand around idle for the majority of the duty
—DPS to DPS (I don’t care about their rotation, and I don’t expect some optimized opener making use of pots or whatever, but I had better see some AOE in a large pull)

In things like farm parties for Extremes/Savage, my expectations are a little higher. I do not expect orange-parse levels of play, but I do expect a certain level of competency when it comes to completing Extreme/Savage content. If the party is for a farm, I expect the party to farm the fight quickly and efficiently—especially if their PF advertised “fast, quick runs; high DPS; no mistakes or kick” (ironically, it’s usually the PF leader doing the lowest in terms of DPS/healing, and making the most mistakes). I also do not appreciate when people enter into farm parties having either never cleared, or cleared only once and just expect the rest of the group to carry them through the content. You want to farm? Then please pull your weight like the rest of the group.

I’ve asked this many times in the course of this thread, and have never received an answer that was some illogical tangent or analogy, but what exactly is it about asking players to do the absolute bare minimum required of their job/role that is some incredibly high standard?

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I think you've listed some fine standards there. that's what I would consider a fairly realistic expectation from most people. it considered more than one context, and it's not exaggerated at all. I am just more concerned with not being subjected to a douchebag's inflated expectations and will throw as many corpses under the bus as I need to to protect myself from those douchebags, collateral damage or not.

I'll just cut to the chase and give you an honest answer. you could be a reasonable person the entire time and it wouldn't matter. I'm not trying to protect myself form you. I'm trying to protect myself from douchebags, just like people in the OP's position are trying to protect themselves from having weird or negative experiences with particularly clueless players.

The root of this issue is communication. On one side we've got people who used to offer advice that no longer do because people get defensive. On the other side we've got people that get defensive because not everyone who sees you doing something wrong is polite in voicing it. What we are left with are players who get by doing terribly because everyone else with them just silently trudges along and gets frustrated by the lowering skill quality.

I can't really speak though, I removed myself from the DF a long time ago. I'm an average player with an awful connection and despite what people say, being polite really doesn't make up for the fact that you're making the run take an extra 5-10min. I'd rather not have the stress of knowing I'm slowing down other people and possibly ruining their fun, so I run with friends who I know don't mind so much.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

The root of this issue is communication. On one side we've got people who used to offer advice that no longer do because people get defensive. On the other side we've got people that get defensive because not everyone who sees you doing something wrong is polite in voicing it. What we are left with are players who get by doing terribly because everyone else with them just silently trudges along and gets frustrated by the lowering skill quality.

I can't really speak though, I removed myself from the DF a long time ago. I'm an average player with an awful connection and despite what people say, being polite really doesn't make up for the fact that you're making the run take an extra 5-10min. I'd rather not have the stress of knowing I'm slowing down other people and possibly ruining their fun, so I run with friends who I know don't mind so much.

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I'm inclined to agree for the most part. I found I could contribute more to a group's objective(clear time usually) by doing simple tasks like holding threat/mitigation and double pulling than I probably can by trying to DPS. we're 6 months into SB and I'm still not sure what good dps numbers are. I recently capped SAM and while leveling I was staying over 2-2.4k on most bosses but I've no idea if I'm doing things badly, averagely, or solidly. when I was leveling WAR I could swap to STR accessories and do about that much but I've no frame of reference if that's any good.

I've found that the best way to do it is just to give whatever advice at the end of the dungeon where there is no longer anything at stake. Just drop a line in party chat then leave. Usually my advice goes something along the lines of "read your skill tooltips".

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

I've found that the best way to do it is just to give whatever advice at the end of the dungeon where there is no longer anything at stake. Just drop a line in party chat then leave. Usually my advice goes something along the lines of "read your skill tooltips".

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On a subtler suggestion that could help - Those should be active by default when opening the 'Action and Traits' window and go over them with the cursor, regardless when you disabled the action help in your character settings.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

I'm inclined to agree for the most part. I found I could contribute more to a group's objective(clear time usually) by doing simple tasks like holding threat/mitigation and double pulling than I probably can by trying to DPS. we're 6 months into SB and I'm still not sure what good dps numbers are. I recently capped SAM and while leveling I was staying over 2-2.4k on most bosses but I've no idea if I'm doing things badly, averagely, or solidly. when I was leveling WAR I could swap to STR accessories and do about that much but I've no frame of reference if that's any good.

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Regarding your comments about personal performance concerns, I find that that stems from a flaw in the design of this game itself. There's no internal resources that show your own performance, nor anything internally to assist players with optimizing their jobs "to the next level"; all of that has to be gathered usually from external resources, and I feel like there's a problem with that.

It's simple enough to read tooltips and follow your flashing boxes for combos, but there's nothing in-game that tells you "Prioritize Shifu over Jinpu" or "Under these conditions, Shinten is more potent than Midare". There's nothing telling you "Here is an optimal opener for a high burst". It's all found out by players, and they use a bunch of math and external resources to do it. Honestly, there should be more in-game assistance when it comes to a person's desire to optimize their role/job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, there should be more in-game assistance when it comes to a person's desire to optimize their role/job.

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Almost like some kind of... In-game parser!

*hides from angry antiparser people*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Regarding your comments about personal performance concerns, I find that that stems from a flaw in the design of this game itself. There's no internal resources that show your own performance, nor anything internally to assist players with optimizing their jobs "to the next level"; all of that has to be gathered usually from external resources, and I feel like there's a problem with that.
It's simple enough to read tooltips and follow your flashing boxes for combos, but there's nothing in-game that tells you "Prioritize Shifu over Jinpu" or "Under these conditions, Shinten is more potent than Midare". There's nothing telling you "Here is an optimal opener for a high burst". It's all found out by players, and they use a bunch of math and external resources to do it. Honestly, there should be more in-game assistance when it comes to a person's desire to optimize their role/job.

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I thought i responded to this post, but either way: would you know a channel to start with that's really detailed and has a wide range of guides for classes? it's always good to fish for extra hints.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Almost like some kind of... In-game parser!

*hides from angry antiparser people*

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as long as I get some degree of privacy about where data on me is stored, then I'd be cool with that.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

I thought i responded to this post, but either way: would you know a channel to start with that's really detailed and has a wide range of guides for classes? it's always good to fish for extra hints.

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I would definitely recommend joining The Balance Discord (LINK if you're interested; don't think it's against any rules to link it here, but if so, I apologize). Very helpful and renown Discord that is full of veterans and theorycrafters willing to help people with job optimization. They have a forum as well, I believe. I have never posted there, though. Just the Discord.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Snip . . .

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For some (which is silly, when it comes to playing with other strangers. Though this goes into a deeper issue of respect for fellow players.) the baseline standard is tank should tank, a healer should heal, and a dps should dps. That is the baseline standard, anything beyond that is a expectation placed by the players not the game. Duty finder is random, the experience will suffer from massive variance swings, and trying to place individual player expectations on random players also suffers from such variance swings.

In an ideal world your standards would be the norm, but sadly that is not the world we live in, and honestly until SE does something about trying to facilitate play behind, tank tanking, healer healing, and damage dealer doing damage we will always have players that will stick to that mindset. Since the bare standard for SE when it comes to such content is not the same for many in the community. So our only option is to either try to vote kick players that do not met expectations, use PF and form a group that will met the expectations placed, leave the group or deal with it.

I mean I ran into a ice mage once, tried to vote kick him and the vote failed so I adjusted, it sucked and the run took longer then it should have, clearly that group had a different standard. Thankfully they are not the norm. Not trying to defend the behavior, nor agree I do see where they might be coming from when it comes to a community bare minimum. If SE does not enforce the same bare minimum what reason would another player have to listen to another player outside of respect for their fellow player. Hope you understand hard for me to explain it.