A lot of SB's antagonists are set up to be kind of pitiable, but not sympathetic. They're still black-hearted monsters through and through. Just look at Yotsuyu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?
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09-23-2017, 10:18 PMDaralii
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09-23-2017, 10:57 PMKalleraKilling repeatedly and in a pretty grade scale is enough for lesser beings to be marked for death, often by us. We can regret and mull all we like, but eventually the body count will get too high to hand wave it all away as "well, at least they don't force people to believe in them and do what they say..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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09-23-2017, 11:09 PMDaraliiThough the WoL might, based on what Zenos said about the Echo and its relation to tempering. Not deliberately, but still...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
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09-24-2017, 02:49 PMRaqrie_TohkaIn Another Defence of ZenosHmm interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I for one do not agree that killing is inherently wrong. Even if it is, there are those times it is simply necessary, as you mentioned too. Such my philosophical stance is there is no such thing as unconditionally "right". Aka a dangerous direction not so different from Zenos himself. Ends sometimes can justify the means, if any "justification" is needed at all. There is no law, only politics.
Thus to any bystander observing the WoL, and even to Zenos himself, we may be every bit the hypocrite we perceive others to be. We practice "compassion and mercy" for our "friends", but not for our "enemies". To win one or two campaigns is nothing, but to consistently do it, and then be branded a "hero" ... such "prestige" stacks and snowballs, and eventually becomes its own justification. For one, exactly how justified one's actions are is not to be decided by ourselves, and two, may have nothing to do with the nature of the actual actions at all.
We can either pretend killing Zenos was "right", or we can pretend killing him was "necessary", mutually exclusive. If killing him was "necessary", then nothing in this world is inherently "right", including "not to kill". If killing him was "right", then there is no such thing as absolute righteousness either, for we are simply replacing one "right" with another, thus as there is no right there is no "necessary". Compassion and mercy is a choice, nothing more, it is not the "good" choice, nor necessarily the "desired" choice. While we can go into another philosophical realm with "choices", I'll just stop with that the Warrior of Light is called a "Warrior" for a reason: We kill. If killing is monstrous then we are monstrous, nothing more, nothing less, no need for justification. But we killed Zenos, we lived and he didn't. It is simply our way of being.
And to resonate with the title of people being called "monsters" ...
"We call those as monsters because we are afraid of them, that they are bigger than us, stronger than us, different from us, and disassociated from us."
Lyse can call Fordola a monster all she wants, and she may be "right". She may be "justified". And it may be "necessary" to do so. Same with us calling Zenos. But we are all a bit monstrous, if not monsters ourselves.
Yet, despite that, friendship, understanding, peace can happen between "monsters", and I refuse to believe that it is all just "politics". Unfortunately, we never saw such "miracles" in this expansion. Thus to me the MSQ for this expansion was just a bit narcissistic, shallow, monstrous. And from my stance, because Zenos killed himself in the end, thus absolving us of a lot of things, so he is the one who "won" this.
(Disclaimer, the expansion was still remarkable and there were many aspects I admired and enjoyed, I just thought the MSQ did not live up to the quality of all the other artistic assets.) -
09-25-2017, 05:11 AMCilia
I guess this demands a full write-up on my philosophy in regards to killing and war. Hide boxed for discretion (it's long).
Killing is acceptable if it serves to save more lives than those you took and only then. Going to war is acceptable if it is to preserve or restore peace and/or freedom, or to protect the well-being of others. Refusing to fight and kill under such circumstances, while morally pure, is selfish - placing one's innocence and purity above the freedom and well-being of others. The "sacrifice" soldiers make is not limited to their lives - soldiers sacrifice their innocence and purity, knowingly and willingly, so that others need not do so or suffer the consequences.
Let's take a look at the war in Stormblood and the circumstances surrounding it. The pretext from 3.5 was that Ilberd used a false flag operation to get the Empire to believe Eorzea had launched an offensive against it, ensuring that war would come to Eorzea regardless of our actions or choices. Eorzea does not have any official channels to engage the Empire in diplomacy. It has repeatedly made aggressive moves against Eorzea. The Eorzeans had no way to talk the Empire out of what would surely be used as a justification (from an Imperial perspective) for war. The real only option left to us, then, was to sully our hands and go to war. Otherwise the Empire would have begun an invasion of Eorzea in earnest; Varis wants to conquer Eorzea, and Zenos would be more than willing to oblige him. At what point does it become the greater sin to sit by and do nothing while the Empire conquers Eorzea, killing countless, helpless, innocent people along the way? Are you okay with telling people "Sorry you're going to suffer and/or die, but my innocence and purity is more important."?
Killing is wrong, in most circumstances. Only when someone poses a clear and direct threat to the well-being of others does it become necessary and, largely, acceptable to kill someone. This is true of Zenos; as a psychopath in a position of authority and power he had no business being in, he was a massive threat to both Eorzeans and Garleans. Few argue that killing him would have been wrong. Yet, there are countless Imperial soldiers that defended him with their lives, be it out of fear or duty, and the Warrior of Light is heavily criticized for having killed them to get to Zenos. This is fair criticism, but in light of the threat Zenos presented, what other choice was there? Nobody else possesses the power and skill necessary to fight Zenos on even ground - he would have killed anyone else who went up against him, and could have easily killed the Warrior of Light twice already had he so chosen.
Fordola and Yotsuyu were no longer threats. We were able to neutralize them without killing them, unlike Zenos, who required a kill or be killed mentality. Granted we did not end up killing Zenos anyway, but to go against him with anything other than lethal force would have been inviting death. Yotsuyu was not a fighter and by exploiting a flaw in the Resonant Echo we were able to dispatch Fordola without killing her. That luxury isn't always available. We kill nameless soldiers for a very similar reason - we do not have the means to dispatch them nonlethally, and it is kill or be killed. (Given the option to go nonlethal I would do so in a heartbeat - the option to kill doesn't even tempt me, and in games like the inFAMOUS series and Deus Ex: Human Revolution I do not kill anyone if it can be avoided at all. Helicopter shot down, pilot gonna get killed by heavily armed mercs with killer robots? No problem! Just dart around invisibly, shooting them with a stun gun and tranq rifle, and toss an EMP grenade at the 'bot to disable it! Pilot gets away and nobody died! Jensen (the PC) is later stuck in a room with a heavily armed cyborg coming at you with a plasma rifle and the intent to kill... sympathy or not, it's kill or be killed.)
Do we impose our will on others? No, not really. Other than putting down primals because they are a danger to people and slowly killing the world (the latter is unverified, and I will consider it as such until we see some topographical erosion like Magic's Ulamog produces), we do not force others to agree with our views. The Doman and Ala Mhigan people did not want Imperial rule, but lacked the power to make that desire for independence a reality. We are simply conduits for their will - we fight for them because they lack the power to fight for themselves, or at least do not possess power enough to make their dreams come true. Owing to the Empire's "might makes right" philosophy, the only way to earn your independence back from it would be through martial force. If we believe their cause just... that Doman and Ala Mhigan independence is worth the cost, worth sacrificing our innocence and purity for... what issue is there with fighting for it?
The protagonists are often criticized for being too reactive, yet here we have situations they are proactive about but are heavily criticized because their actions resulted in casualties. There is no way to win.
In the long run, our actions save more lives than they take. We waded into war in order to end it, not because we wanted to. Killing to prevent a greater number of deaths and to bring about peace is not wrong. In Fordola's context? She chose to kill for her ideal - that Ala Mhigo would be better off accepting existence as an Imperial province, the wishes of the Ala Mhigan people be damned. She fought not for Ala Mhigo, but for herself. Again, I do not think Fordola is a monster, but she did do some monstrous things; just the same, the Warrior of Light is not a bad person, though they may do some bad things. Rielle acknowledges this if you speak to her post-70 DRK, though she admits she hasn't the stomach to follow such a path and would rather pursue Conjury.
We aren't innocent or pure. One day we will face judgment for our actions - but until that day comes, we can but carry on doing what needs to be done for those we have lost and those we may yet save. That is the least we can do. Call me a self-righteous hypocrite if you like - I really don't care. -
09-25-2017, 12:01 PMSarantai
I loved this discussion at first, but it’s starting to become far too.... whatever this is. Philosophical? Political? Religious? I fear this talk is simply going to go in endless circles now, as everyone still involved is most likely deeply involved in their views and not likely to be swayed by any argument put forth by the others.
Thank you for the debate. Guess there’s nothing left (for me at least) but to see what comes in 4.1. Till next time. -
09-25-2017, 01:35 PMTinyRedLeaf
Well, the thread lost focus of its main topic, and I was too busy to get back into it. :p
I think the upcoming patch will add fresh impetus, since it appears we'll see how Fordola is adjusting to life as a prisoner, and as someone on the wrong side of history. We'll know for certain then if she has any remorse and, consequently, whether she's worthy of redemption. -
09-25-2017, 04:53 PMRaqrie_TohkaNice and good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
How my perspective still differs is that I don't buy in to the "innocent and pure" theory. Not in a way that I think nothing is innocent or pure, but just that I don't think anyone can be innocent and pure, only threads of logic can be "innocent" and interpretive art be "pure". And since there is no need to worry about innocence and purity, there is no need to worry about taint and corruption either, except maybe in thought. "It is just as easy to fall into darkness, as it is to fall unto light". "There is no difference between positive and negative energy, only more energy". Thus you can see how dangerous my point is; Zenos is pure energy, and in that itself justifies its existence. Of course this energy has its consequences, one which happened to be in the form of WoL and which happened to show up at his door. We then mutually chose to clash with each other, and the rest, including Zenos, is now history.
While killing to save lives is sound and valid logic, usually there are no situations that are so "pure", except in knee-jerk conundrums and small-scale box-ins requiring finale level sacrifices. One can see how hard the writers tried to force such a situation to happen in the MSQ, and that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. For real life, what I think is soldiers don't need our pity and empathy for losing nonexistent "purity and innocence". They need our respect and acknowledgement. And what I think of war is that it's a slippery slope into a "circle of hate none can break". Resorting to killing to address problems, any problem, is a slippery slope necessitating more similar actions of that nature. This is the fallacy to the logic of killing. While what I say makes killing sound like an undesirable and lesser solution, it is because in the grand scheme of things it tends to cause more problems than it addresses, and in the situations it doesn't, it still causes more entropy than addresses. Except in situations so fudged up and perfectly set up that it will resolve something. Yet, war is not "wrong". It just can't be "right", either. But it is as far away from qualitative "miracles" as we've ever understood it. (And I didn't play a game with "final" in its name to witness anything short of miracles.)
So while the MSQ ended in a "happy ending", for me, I took it as a personal defeat, because I did nothing "above and beyond" the "usual course" of the WoL, i.e. there were no miracles. Zenos won philosophically. There was nothing else to win. While saving lots of resistance fighters and granting them a nation was something probably worth celebrating, if I hadn't managed it though, I wouldn't have been unacceptably sad either. If everyone died because the statue just happened to crash and cause the mountain to cave in it would have been in the natural order of things too, and if somehow we gained a few extra castrums and cannons and extra victories too I would just respond with a "meh". But immunization against such scales of sadness, unfortunately, also immunizes against equivalent scales of happiness. In short, I did not enjoy the MSQ as the writers intended, but not their fault, it is my own cowardice in thought, due to longstanding habit.
Thus, I do care. I just don't get affected by it. Which means nothing even slowed me down from cleaving up Zenos' face. But I don't try to justify what I did, because not only does it requires no justification, but there is no possible justification for it in the first place. Only pure logic. Of which this MSQ tried very hard to shove down our throats, instead of "show, not tell", and let us form our own conclusions.
“A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it.”
― Rabindranath Tagore
Ahem ... but he never said it's a bad thing, though. I mean, try doing something that matters when your mind is all the opposite of logic. x)
(P.S. I am still upset I couldn't help Zenos be redeemed. But it seems like he didn't need/want my help anyways. So, meh.)
(P.S.S. And thus is how the MSQ sort of just flew all over my head, and failed to move me. "The most heart-touching stories are the ones soft enough to reside into a heart." - Me. For me, the MSQ was too heavy-handed, inconsequential ("shallow"), almost narcissistic, to ultimately move me. While I can understand some people want to be an epically justified WoL, it's just a bit too much for me.)
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09-25-2017, 08:52 PMKallera
We started a larger war to prevent a smaller one, because we refused the option of diplomacy. And it is unconvincing because the writers cannot seem to make the garleans competent. We have had around 4 rl years of beating them handily. We are supposed to hate them, to be as biased against them as the Scions are, while I hope it is for some narrative rug to be swept out from under us, I don't see that coming around from the empire. There are no pure garlean npcs, in kugane (a neutral territory, presumably) There is a worry of Garlean spies(instead of spies in general?) despite the utter lack of garlean people around to begin with, most people under them have the whole "I don't like them blah blah blah,"It sounds like we are just going to just destroy them from a mile away. I kinda want the whole crusade against the empire to spiral out of control, because this is Eorzea starting a war, not stepping into one, and we have seen the aggressors of the conflict routinely being wrong, or at least unable to justify their reasons for so much bloodshed to be taking place. Bloodshed with the WoL at its spearhead.
I would like nothing better than for the WoL to be punished for all they've done...but I don't see the writers going through with it. Because of the whole Chosen One narritive that is around the WoL, everything they do is justified: because without them, Eorzea/the planet falls apart. Only the prsence of another Warrior of Light would address this, and the damn thing as a whole if they were to end the whole thing entirely. We are the one thing holding this together, and once again, nothing threatens us or is a check on our power.
nothing lasting more than the patch cycle we bother to lift a sword at it anyway...
So why resist the Warrior of Light? why try, in the face of a slayer of gods and men? What is it that has people so inspired to rush towards their deaths? If we are a force of agency and freedom and all that, Why are we the irreplacable fixture? The force against which failure is the only option?
Would the next WoL be the one that kills us?
There's likely family and money and fear of dying behind those other spears.
They should have a planet endorse them.
tldr: divine selection makes us retroactively "the right side". and that feels wrong in the face of our task being destroying the divine and fighting for human agency. It feels like a broken lesson, intentionally binding everyone to the Warrior of Light's destiny makes them no different than the gods they are tasked to destroying. -
09-25-2017, 10:33 PMAlleoWe simply did not have the chance at diplomacy thanks to Ilberts actions. The Eorzean alliance did nothing against Garlemald until either Gaius threatened them with the Ultima weapon or Ilbert forced their hands thanks to his actions. We cant even say that we prevented only a smaller one with that. It was a high chance that Garlemald would attack back harshly against Eorzea which could have lead to an all out war on the whole continent. This is far away from being small. So they had to attack first to take them by surprise but they only attacked because Ilbert left them no choice. I mean how big is the chance that the empire who is not known for their diplomacy would hear them out, when they believe that the alliance attacked them first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
The WoL is in no position to negotiate completely alone and against the wishes of the alliance. We are no leader of a country and it was the decision of the alliance to go to war and we helped them for our own reasons. With our assistance we probably stopped the empire from slaughtering them all and gave two countries their freedom back. How is that wrong?
And I am still not sure what horrible stuff our WoL did to earn so much hate? Yes we are not morally pure white but we are far away from being a bad one. We do a lot to make the lives of people better but yes we also kill if its necessary. But we should also not confuse ingame stuff with whats truly happening. We probably did not kill thousand and thousands of people/monster/animals, and we are also shown as someone that gives a person another chance or let them just arrest them. Everyone probably has a different view point for the WoL but I still kinda wonder why he/she is seen in such a negative view by some.
Anyway until now we never killed our own allies in the name of someone else, so imo someone like Fordola is really on another level and I am interested in seeing how she will turn out. -
09-25-2017, 11:27 PMLineageRazorI don't feel like it's quite right to bring soldiers in as a comparison to what the Warrior of Light does. It's almost universally accepted that when soldiers kill in the line of duty, they are not murderers. The ultimate culpability lies with the folks who deployed those soldiers; they are the ones that bear the burden of responsibility. Soldiers, as a part of their training, are broken down and built up to be weapons; when a soldier kills, they are the weapon, and the ones giving the orders are the ones pulling the trigger. So, even if you buy into the idea of purity and innocence, that purity and innocence is NOT lost when a soldier kills. (Naturally, there's some grey area; soldiers are expected to balk if their orders are particularly heinous. But that grey area is incredibly subjective.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
The Warrior of Light, however, does not get this pass. While they do cooperate with the Scions, they are their own agent, and are under no obligation to do what they do, in the way that a soldier is obligated to follow their orders. They act because they choose to do so. I don't mean by this to suggest that the WoL is a murderer or an evil person, but they ARE bearing a great deal of responsibility that a rank-and-file soldier wouldn't be expected to bear.
Of course, there are some who would argue that a soldier has both the right and the responsibility to walk away at any time, and therefore DOES bear the full burden of responsibility. It is notable that very few of the people who argue so have ever been soldiers themselves... -
09-25-2017, 11:39 PMSendohJinwhere did we have that option? you realize at best the WoL is a First Lt., there are 9 ranks above that. the WoL is a cross between a top Navy Seal type and a 007-type of operative, these people don't determine policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
like what specifically?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
we're on the right side because we almost always fight on the side of the oppressed. we win a lot of the times because of divine selection but that's not what puts us on the right side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
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09-26-2017, 12:15 AMRaqrie_TohkaQuote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Well thankfully no one in this thread is yet saying that all the Garleans we killed could've just "walked away at any time". At least they retained their purity and innocence (and duty, and honour,) when they all died for nothing.
But still, to pity them is an insult. They deserve respect, and acknowledgement. Yes, they are still the enemy.
But at any rate, I don't think asking Zenos to "please, for whatever reason you'd like, just walk away, and no one needs to die" would've worked. Not because he couldn't have swallowed his pride, and gained just enough sanity to listen to us. But because we would've still needed to kill him. The "folks who deployed soldiers" are expecting his death. Friendly "folks". War, is itself the ultimate grey area. The term "soldier", "weapon", recognizes neither friend nor foe.
It is not "evil", per se. But isn't this just pure madness? Absolute insanity? We just stand there at one time as if everything can be fine, and at another time when everything is certainly not? Are we seriously talking about purity and innocence? Can I be forgiven to "subjectively balk" at it? It is madness, even if "subjective madness". There can be order in monstrosity too. And of monstrous things and orderly things, we have had plenty of examples of overlap.
So perhaps I'd apologize for bringing a term as sacred as "soldiers" into something so monstrous as a discussion of the "WoL". No, not evil or murderer. But we are monstrous, and no less than Zenos. Whether we bear the burden responsibly or not, which separates us from him, we are still monstrous.
And if there be pity for monsters, may there be pity for Zenos, Fordola, Yotsuyu, and the WoL as well. We pity not the act, nor its nature, not fate, nor folks. But the concept of being monstrous. The concept of war. The concept of tragedy. Of heinousness. Of disorder. Of un-beauty. Of stressed logic. Of argument between friends. Of unresolved conflict, eternal conflict.
But there can be no "pity" for soldiers, as it is an insult. We may only respect, and acknowledge them. In a forever cold, solemn, distanced way. Perhaps soldiers have the right to empathize with and pity each other. But when they do, it's not for being a soldier. It's for something much farther than that. And thankfully, for that, we may all be allowed to feel in the same way. Something anyone, everyone, anything, everything, may empathize with. Because only so, can it save anyone, everyone, anything, and everything.
Something .. "final".
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09-26-2017, 02:22 AMKallera
In my opinion, The WoL has done a lot, and in asense, that kinda is my problem with the character. Yes,to the betterment of certain folk and to whatever location they are in but...In a world where the point is to have man eventually take control of their destiny it feels like the WoL is also an impediment to this, walking cheat code that they are.
Are they evil? no, more like the monster described either, something I wish I was not playing as. The legend I was never really comfortable being has grown into something too big and central, with a plot armor that makes me question if anything lesser matters, because "of course they'll win. So long as they are 'the chosen one' they will win." I wish I was just an adventurer. -
09-26-2017, 02:38 AMSendohJin
so you are just complaining that this is a themepark MMO and not a sandbox?
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09-26-2017, 03:04 AMKallerano.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
I do not enjoy the main character, something always feels off or the setting makes me resentful when playing as the "Warrior of Light" and not ...anything else not "the chosen one" really. You can certainly have that kinda of game without this feeling really, that we are this oppressive, unnatural hand upon the setting.. -
09-26-2017, 04:37 AMSendohJin
you use the word "oppressive" but i don't think you know what it means. our hand didn't save Ysayle, Haurchefant, Moenbryda, or Papalymo did it?
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09-26-2017, 05:08 AMDelilyNo, no we're not. On the contrary, a large part of this game is how little influence and power we have. We are constantly tasked to do things for other people, things that are trivial. Also, for all our power, we're unable to prevent the deaths of the people we care about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
We didn't devise the plan that wrested Doma and Ala Mihgo from the Imperials.
We could stop the Gryffin from unleashing Shinryu.
No matter how often we stop the primals, they just come back.
We don't have the freedom to come and go as we please, a primal pops up, we have to fight it. The Scions are hatching a grand plan, we have to be a part of it.
We are chained by our power.
What have we done? Kill people? Have you not paid attention to the fact that Eorzea is a violent place? You walk outside a settlement and there's creatures that kill you. Some members of the Empire literally tried to wipe it off the face of the map. Primals abound. The Ascians are running amok trying to cause more calamaties in order to merge the 13 shards back together. We kill Imperial soldiers, what of it? Conscripted or not, they would kill us if they could. We kill beastmen? What of it? They actively summon primals with the intent to wreak havoc and mayhem. We "killed" Thordan? What of it? He turned himself into a primal. When the other side wants to kill you, there is little chance of peaceful negotiations and deathless solutions.Quote:
I would like nothing better than for the WoL to be punished for all they've done
There's no divine being to punish us. On the contrary, what acts as god has blessed us and continues to support us. You're attempting to apply your morality to a world to which it is not suited, as there cannot, and will never be, a time in which death and killing will not be a part of it. The WoL is not a monster, but a product of the environment in which he lives.
If it really bothers you this much, go do the DRK quests. They specifically deal with these issues.
It's less the fact that's a theme park and more the fact the game is heavily story driven. WoW, FFXI, LoTRO, and DAoC are all theme parks, but in each case, you play second fiddle to some NPC. It doesn't change the fact you are a world shaker though.Quote:
so you are just complaining that this is a themepark MMO and not a sandbox?
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09-26-2017, 07:01 AMKalleraQuote:
Originally Posted by Delily
Everyone keeps saying this, and yes I have played the DRK quests. And it still doesn't make sense to me.
Take for example, the lvl 65~ quest, the one with the woman that drugged you, being worked to the bone by the zealot. Now, the zealot could have told you to faff off, and you likely would have offer him regardless, but instead he acts like a robot spouting scripture, pulls out his scepter, and think he can take the killer of Nidhogg...
why?
Why does anyone oppose the WoL these days? I can excuse the bumpkins who have never heard of the person, but ...tons of people have. (And yes I understand it would be a boring game if people surrendered to us, but "because it would be a boring video game" surely Is not what would go through their heads.
And yet, even after playing the DRK quests, I just don't believe in them, or I wish I wasn't playing as them. -
09-26-2017, 09:08 AMDaraliiI think you're underestimating how irrational a man that's lost everything can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
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09-26-2017, 10:32 AMDelilyWell, beyond that, the guy was a bully and a "tough". When you're the top dog, there's not shortage of people looking to try and take you down a notch or two. He saw 3 vs. 1, and he took the chance. Great line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. As the WoL, we have to be in tip top shape all the time. It just takes one "punk" to have a lucky night and we're out for the count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
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09-26-2017, 07:55 PMKalleraI don't know if I should start a new thread for this or stay with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delily
But even during then, and I voiced my complaints then too, saying they are just a tool of everyone else, I didn't feel for the character or for Eorzea.
With 4.1 approaching, I think this is the first time I'm not looking foward to the msq, because the times when everyone is singing the WoL's accolades just makes me feel lost and uninvested. And I'm not arguing that everyone should change to suit my tastes, that's silly-- but I don't like or feel for the character anymore. -
09-26-2017, 09:03 PMDelilyI think the core problem here is that the story of FFXIV doesn't appeal to you. I also think you're missing a central theme to the game, which is that being The Hero isn't all that great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
The bold part has come up with several instances within the MSQ and the side quests, and it's the fact that when you are The Hero, people look to you as a tool to solve their problems and ignore your emotions and thoughts. To most people you are The Hero so long as you keep solving their problems. Once you stop, they no longer are concerned with you. You will occasionally get people who are genuinely grateful for what you did, but people will come to you with their problems and expect you to solve them in a way which has no risk for that person, because, after all, you're The Hero, right?
Beyond that, many people have this tall tale of what you can do. Many people think you're some omnipotent godlike being, when the reality is that you're just as fragile as they are. We have the Echo and Blessing of Light which protect us from the primals and do let us do a few things above and beyond the average person, but the reason we can survive the vast majority of our fights is because we do have quite a number of allies and we are a highly experienced and skilled warrior. Sure we can defeat primals and Nidhogg (with the help of other adventurers), but that doesn't keep alive should someone decide to try to lance us in the back, or prevent some punk from taking a popshot at us when the Echo kicks in and suddenly we're incapacitated.
Furthermore, being the Hero isn't all that great when we can't save the people closest to us. Ysayle? Papalymo? Haurchefant? All our powers and skills did nothing for them. You're essentially complaining about a core theme to the story, which I will admit, has taken the team some time to develop.
Contrast this theme with LoTRO, WoW, and FFXI, in which you are not the Hero. In those games, you are highly skilled, and involved in world shaking events, but stories of you're adventures never reach the common man, so many of them don't treat you as such. The people involved in those events know you and what you did, and depend on you, but the outside world knows little of you. -
09-26-2017, 09:18 PMKallera
I said I complained about that back then...
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09-26-2017, 11:15 PMAlleoNot everyone might believe all the stories around the WoL. Maybe some think that those are just lies that are told to make the people happy or maybe they dont care about their own life. Also lets not forget that even with our big amount of power we are still mortal enough that we could fall to deathly wounds. We are also not free to ignore stuff like poison. (But I do agree that its getting a bit unbelievable the more false gods we slay..but thats sadly the ground points of this story..imo enemies like Thordan should have come way later because they should have been way too powerful for us to beat)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
So they might have just had so much anger and rage that they did not care if they dont stand a chance and thought that it would be better to at least try it. And there are enough stories even in real life where people suddenly grew beyond their limit in certain situations. -
09-27-2017, 10:29 AMCiliaYo. (I sure hope my old airbase makes it out of all this tension with North Korea OK... not that I ever got deployed, but even so.) While soldiers are expected to follow orders, they are also expected to question orders if those orders go against the rules of war... like firing on non-combatants... and hospitals... and friendly fire... and are expected to treat defeated enemy soldiers and POWs with dignity and respect. Probably why that wounded Imperial from Specula Imperatoris resonated so strongly with me. No, soldiers don't need pity, but they don't need or deserve contempt either.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Ahem. Back on point. The Warrior of Light is a soldier - a provisional one in one of the three Grand Companies, or alternatively one conscripted by Hydaelyn to serve Her will. While we work primarily with the Scions and operate independently of the Alliance, it is often in conjunction and with the approval of those selfsame Grand Companies. The Scions are, in effect, the Eorzean Alliance's Special Forces unit when it comes to military action anymore. The Warrior of Light themselves is just a pawn on the chessboard (or rather a queen), not the hand that moves.
The Warrior of Light is not legally obligated to do what they do, but most would argue that, with the power they have, the Warrior of Light is indirectly responsible for any bad things that happen they could have prevented. To use Spider-man's age-old aphorism, "with great power comes great responsibility."
Back to the original point... Lyse never calls Fordola a monster anyway. She does call her a "murderer, butcher, traitor" and "coward." All are true except the "traitor" clause, since Fordola only ever fought for the Imperial cause. (Or more accurately her own cause, though that lines up very closely with the Imperial cause.)
I've... blathered long enough. Hanging up the coat till 4.1. -
09-27-2017, 12:58 PMAlien_GamerIn the MSQ quests "The Scions of the Seventh Dawn" Minfillia literally asks you to join them and in "A Wild Rose by Any Other Name" you accept and join their organization. The Scions are a military organization that participates in combat operations of all sizes. We happen to be their ultimate weapon, but we are still the weapon not the one in control.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Likewise in "the Company You Keep" you are literally asked to join a grand company which are the military forces for Eorzea and we literally hold a rank in that GC. They send us on missions to do things just like any other soldier. The main difference is the power of us as a weapon as opposed to the NPC soldiers.
Just like in any other organization, military or not, the more capable you are of handling a situation the more you'll be entrusted with. Just because you are entrusted with a lot of responsibility does not mean you aren't a soldier.
So how are we not a soldier that is obligated to follow orders? -
09-28-2017, 08:08 AMTinyRedLeafAs Delily explained, there's not much that can be done about this, as the dissonance you feel stems from a fundamental disagreement with how the FFXIV team wants to develop the story, which, by the way, is a huge step in the right direction for many long-time Final Fantasy fans, like this guy on reddit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
Same material, but wildly different and opposing opinion. Who would have thunk, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by dietfritos
This also lies at the heart of my fierce annoyance with players like you who keep insisting that Lyse is horribly written character. As I've argued before, that's just a matter of fundamental differences in interpretation of her character development, and not actually a fair review of the effort taken to write her character in Stormblood.
But, that's an argument for another thread, just like any further discussion about whether WoL is an unrelatable Gary Stu/Mary Sue character should really be taken elsewhere, or in a new thread if need be. -
09-28-2017, 12:56 PMRaqrie_TohkaVery interesting and thought provoking, didn't know about the reddit thing before.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
But what if some of us don't actually want to save the world ourselves, and just want to sit in a house, drink tea, manage supplies and equipment for someone else who does? What if I know myself not worthy of being the hero? What if even as the hero, I'd rather there be multiple heroes, so that one may share the joy of "saving the world", with others? What if, while knowing all this, yet I am still saving the world as if it was my birthright, can one be forgiven for feeling a bit of unease, being unsettled, in how things are weirdly working out like this?
What if, deep down, I do want to save the world, yet in all my combined experience, knowledge and personality, I "know" that if this goes on in the blissful way it does, it won't stay happy forever, and this has me worried, not just for me, but for the world? For instance, now that we've killed the crown prince, and angered the Garlean empire, will they not strategic-bomb out all of Ala Mhigo, then send 3 full legions to ravage Eorzea in revenge? Yet the resistance fighters and Lyse, oblivious and carefree, are wholly unknowing, and unprepared. But who can blame them, they just won their homeland back. Yet, some of us start worrying earlier than others do, and take joy only later than others do, in hope that others may live with just a bit less worry, and just a bit more joy.
"Saving the world" as a concept has its own beauty indeed, and nowhere would I ever suggest to the devs to stop letting the world be saved. Note that I didn't say it as "us saving the world". While it would be quite nice for us to be the ones saving the world, the beauty of the world being saved can be appreciated even without us being the ones, or being the only ones, responsible for saving the world. If the world was truly worth saving, if the world was something we truly loved, we would see it saved no matter what. We shouldn't need to be coaxed and pampered to do it. What some of us would simply wish to see, is for the devs to "show, not tell". Show us the world, in all its beauty and cherish, that we ourselves would wish to save it. Instead of "telling" us that, with power, with responsibility, with everyone's expectations on you, go on and save the world, and reap the rewards.
Players are not dogs. We should not need to be "trained" with prestige, rewards, enticement. Some of us would even rather choose to live as a dog, though with the respect of a human ... than as a human, with the bestiality of a dog. But that is a topic for another time. -
09-28-2017, 02:57 PMJyeraI admit I am very confused where you were going with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-29-2017, 01:22 AMRaqrie_TohkaIt's a never-ending argument, that one, straw-man or whatever, disregard it please. Sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyera
Just focus on the "saving the world in multiple ways" part. At any rate though, it's a complicated matter, the devs are trying to make everyone happy with a general-scenario, and good for them, but player-expectations are high and player types vary, they will have to be more flexible and more adaptable in handling the construction of future content so everyone can be satisfied. -
09-29-2017, 01:32 AMSendohJinthis is very easy, it's how you deal with every Final Fantasy game. you're not Cecil, Bartz, Terra, Cloud, Ramza, Squall, Zidane, Tidus, Vaan, Lightning or Noctis, you're just experiencing a world/story from their perspective. nothing says you have to be the Warrior of Light either, it's just some guy/girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-29-2017, 11:48 AMRaqrie_TohkaBut I find that a bit hard to do in FFXIV for obvious reasons such as the game purposefully putting you, and your customized character, in the shoes of the hero. And somehow I'm not experiencing this world as well as I did for other worlds, from the perspectives of main characters in other Final Fantasy games. Perhaps ... I'm just not very good at experiencing, but I always have this feeling they experienced their worlds much better than I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
And thus in terms of pure experience, FFXIV does not quite compete with the other traditional Final Fantasy games. It's just a niche for people who want to try out the WoL concept in first-person.
(Edit: It's probably just me though. I liked Witcher 3 more because there was already a main character. Mass Effect 2 was ok because Shepard was more or less a preset personality as well. But Skyrim was just a bit weird, as it was first-person without a preset main character. So I do find it easier to enjoy the story when I don't bring my own prejudices into it, when I'm not playing it as "myself".) -
09-29-2017, 01:18 PMCiliaJust gonna leave this here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-29-2017, 09:01 PMRocl
Well, the 4.1 trailer seems to show us Echoing in Fordola's memories so hmmmmm
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09-29-2017, 09:26 PMKalleraExcuse me? I find Lyse is badly written, at the very least I do not enjoy her presence, which was clearly the intentions of the devs by having her shadow us throughout most of the MSQ. But what is this "players like you?"Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
I found her untrustworthy in the beginning with her 'reveal', and childish, not in the "Yda just being Yda" sort of way, but as a liability that could cause problems. She regularly demonstrates that she is not a capable leader, , even with her soundboard of eyerolling political platitudes, "Let's make a nation for everyone!" "If only we relied on each other, and not the gods!" "You don't get to speak about freedom!", yet Conrad chooses her. I, as the reader, do not buy it. That the writers tried really hard to make her likeable, does not mean I have to like her or enjoy her presence. -
09-29-2017, 09:39 PMRaqrie_TohkaI'm just suggesting they keep doing what they have always done; learn what was overlooked, design ways to overcome, and improve. It is unlikely we can "satisfy everyone's needs", but there are ways to ensure "everyone is [feeling] satisfied", in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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09-30-2017, 01:02 AMthegreatonemalNo there is not sadly have you not heard of mankind or the internet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-30-2017, 08:50 AMCiliaWants are boundless; resources are finite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-30-2017, 09:16 AMAmetrineI like Lyse and enjoyed her growth so far, but she's yet to really stumble about and learn from a mistake proper, making her accomplishments feel like writing convenience. I'm fully expecting some kind of Emmanulain (sp?) sort of screw-up coming soon. In fact, maybe her choice to keep Fordola alive to face the fact Garlemald lost??Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
But, anyway, as example, Alphinaud is one of my favorite characters because of how he transformed into a much better person during HW post the Crystal Braves implosion. Yet, I never, at any point, understood why Alisaie, who had so little screentime and was nothing but "sassy girl," had such a huge fandom while Alphy had so much hate.
It goes both ways.