Is there any reason to play BLM over RDM now days?

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Originally Posted by RuneSevalle

Nowhere did I say BLM should have rez. At all. FFS, I didn't even have an argument. I only took issue with you denying that Verraise is better than the healers. Lightspeed is the only comparable method to come close to RDM in that sense.

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If I may,

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Originally Posted by RuneSevalle

it's just that rez safety buffer has the other casters feeling shafted.

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This may be the quote at the source of the confusion.

I think you also should have said caster as opposed to casters since, if SMN didn't have its plethora of problems atm, they'd also have a safety buffer, albeit at a lower rate, but still if 3 people in your party die in under a minute not even RDM is going to save you. I do appreciate you not jumping on the "RDM is OP bandwagon" though.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I think you also should have said caster as opposed to casters since, if SMN didn't have its plethora of problems atm, they'd also have a the safety buffer, albeit at a lower rate, but still if 3 people in your party die in under a minute not even RDM is going to save you. I do appreciate you not jumping on the "RDM is OP bandwagon" though.

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That Susanoo ex run where the healers flat out refused to rez because me and someone else were RDM.
Failed to enrage at 3%

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

That Susanoo ex run where the healers flat out refused to rez because me and someone else were RDM.
Failed to enrage at 3%

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I got one better. Had a Susano EX run where healers wanted me to both do all the rez work AND mana shift THEM.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

That Susanoo ex run where the healers flat out refused to rez because me and someone else were RDM.
Failed to enrage at 3%

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I'm sure that sick healer DPS was worth the half second they could've instant raised someone >.<

rdm rez is op and can help in many situations (1 healet down other healer focused on tank busters or without swiftcast up, ... or 2 dps down by acc, getting them up asap to ensure no enrage is prio etc.)

embolden might only be .75-.5% dps increase, but that + its saftey net rez + constant dps (blm are not that constant), still makes it hard for blm & smn to get in pfs or statics...

Those are two very niche situations, and the first one SMN can do. Dude it's not hard for BLM to get into Statics or PF, stop making crap up.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

rdm rez is op and can help in many situations (1 healet down other healer focused on tank busters or without swiftcast up, ... or 2 dps down by acc, getting them up asap to ensure no enrage is prio etc.)

embolden might only be .75-.5% dps increase, but that + its saftey net rez + constant dps (blm are not that constant), still makes it hard for blm & smn to get in pfs or statics...

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No static/PF is going to say no to a BLM based on that though, if they are good they will always be welcome. I have never seen a PF DPS spot that is reserved only for RDM and I have done a lot of PF since SB launch with the EX Primals and O1S/O2S runs

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

rdm rez is op and can help in many situations (1 healet down other healer focused on tank busters or without swiftcast up, ... or 2 dps down by acc, getting them up asap to ensure no enrage is prio etc.)

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Okay let's assume we're in Savage. The group is running perfectly otherwise but the samurai and ninja both bite the dust 50% through. RDM picks them both up, and now has spent 50% of its mana pool--its damage is neutered, and so is the damage of the samurai and the ninja. Assuming the fourth dps is a bard, the RDM's damage can be recovered, but this group will need to perform very, VERY well to meet enrage regardless of the two rezzes since now 3/4 of its dps are running on near empty.

In the above situation anyway, it's still advantageous for the healers to each swiftrez one dps rather than having the RDM stop dps.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Okay let's assume we're in Savage. The group is running perfectly otherwise but the samurai and ninja both bite the dust 50% through. RDM picks them both up, and now has spent 50% of its mana pool--its damage is neutered, and so is the damage of the samurai and the ninja. Assuming the fourth dps is a bard, the RDM's damage can be recovered, but this group will need to perform very, VERY well to meet enrage regardless of the two rezzes since now 3/4 of its dps are running on near empty.

In the above situation anyway, it's still advantageous for the healers to each swiftrez one dps rather than having the RDM stop dps.

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Let's add more assumptions.

Swift cast is down.

Now what?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let's add more assumptions.

Swift cast is down.

Now what?

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well since they probably wipe to enrage anyway.....Healer LB3? oh wait that is a better res than veraise isnt it? You can raise 7 people in 2 seconds, at full health. THAT IS SO OP

Actually, that is a really good argument to make as for the healers not being able to raise like RDM. In fact their LB3 is so broken when compared to the other LB3. The tanks they reduce danage, but it isnt like they make the party invincible, The DPS does alot of damage, but its not like its an instant kill the boss. The healer LB however doesnt just heal alot of hp/mp - it fully res's and fully restores mp/hp of all party members.

I could see this argument/complaint going south, to the point the devs would go "ok we let healers raise as often as RDM, but since they can raise so often, we removed the effect from their LB3"

I would rather healers get the best raise in the game, instead of lose it because they gotta raise like a RDM personally

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let's add more assumptions.

Swift cast is down.

Now what?

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Two can play, assume you're already screwed because apparently your healers already swifted to rez two other people, any RDM raising after this point is moot since two members of your team already appear to have died. Oh and don't say "Oh they swifted for emergency healing", every single healer has access to an oGCD emergency heal.

Let's add even more assumptions!

If you have six Red Mages, can they handle the healing requirements while still pumping out damage?

While pumping out the same damage as if they weren't? Absolutely not.

Ehat if we have 6 paladins and 2 RDM, could they handle the healing requirements?

If you're so desperate to be victimized by RDM, like some people in this thread, I have some changes that you'd love:
If an RDM is in your party all other magic damage is reduced by 50% and any other class that raises now lowers the damage of the party by 25%.
Using Aetherial Manipulation now costs all your mana.
Between the Lines now costs all your mana plus 40% of your health.
Using any fire magic burns your hands an applies a DoT that reduces your health and max health by 10% every 3 seconds.
Ice Magic is cold, all Blizzard spells now give you Heavy for 10 seconds.
Using any Thunder spell now stuns you for 3 seconds.
RDM can now use Black and White Magic with 200% potency of BLM and WHM.
BLM now has double GCD because why not?
RDM no longer has cast times or a GCD, infinite spellslinger meta, every single spell gives 20 white and black mana.
Corps-a-corps now gives invulnerability for 30 seconds, Displacement now deal the same potency as your melee combo combined.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

If you're so desperate to be victimized by RDM, like some people in this thread, I have some changes that you'd love:
If an RDM is in your party all other magic damage is reduced by 50% and any other class that raises now lowers the damage of the party by 25%.
Using Aetherial Manipulation now costs all your mana.
Between the Lines now costs all your mana plus 40% of your health.
Using any fire magic burns your hands an applies a DoT that reduces your health and max health by 10% every 3 seconds.
Ice Magic is cold, all Blizzard spells now give you Heavy for 10 seconds.
Using any Thunder spell now stuns you for 3 seconds.
RDM can now use Black and White Magic with 200% potency of BLM and WHM.
BLM now has double GCD because why not?
RDM no longer has cast times or a GCD, infinite spellslinger meta, every single spell gives 20 white and black mana.
Corps-a-corps now gives invulnerability for 30 seconds, Displacement now deal the same potency as your melee combo combined.

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I think I found my new favorite poster on the OF lol

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

If you're so desperate to be victimized by RDM, like some people in this thread, I have some changes that you'd love:

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Don't forget: Every Vercure is as potent as an LB2, and every Verraise is an LB3. Oh and dualcast is now permanent: every cast is instant, and the GCD has been reduced to .3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

While pumping out the same damage as if they weren't? Absolutely not.

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They'd also go OoM pretty darn quick.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

If you're so desperate to be victimized by RDM....

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While I'm mostly on your side of the argument, the sarcasm and hyperbole is unnecessary. Lets keep this respectful please.

Ultimately, in a game where healers are expected to have enough downtime to dps, and when you have two healers on a team, red mage healing is only relevant when things start to go REALLY bad and both healers are pushed beyond their ability to cope. Occasionally it may be able to save a wipe, but in general it's not strong enough to do much.

Veraise is the real contribution of RDM. While it suffers from similar issues to the healing in that it's only useful if very bad thing are happening and at that point the run may just wipe anyway, it is very useful in prolonging fights so people can get more exposure to mechanics and hence learn them faster.

The issue is that, once a group is at a point where they won't die more than twice, all of RDM's utility apart form embolden are useless. As such, they need to have competitive damage for people to even consider them later in the content cycle.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let's add even more assumptions!

If you have six Red Mages, can they handle the healing requirements while still pumping out damage?

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To be clear: Red mages cannot substitute full time for healers. Their healers are far too inefficient and expensive and they do zero DPS while they heal. They should also very rarely need to heal in a competent raid. Their support niche is chain revives.

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

While I'm mostly on your side of the argument, the sarcasm and hyperbole is unnecessary. Lets keep this respectful please.

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Personally I think it's better he blow of steam like this, where people know not to take it seriously, than to bottle it up and let the frustration make him maliciously hostile. That's not a good road to go down. Though I do agree the discussion should be kept respectful, I think a bit of lighthearted fun and hyperbole can help keep us from each other's throats. Hopefully. :)

RDM is always in demand. How about we nerf their ceiling to be below SMN and bring RDM up? RDM deserves a big trade off for being so easy to play, so it needs to do less damage.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

RDM is always in demand.

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Not when speedkilling is desired.

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How about we nerf their ceiling to be below SMN and bring RDM up? RDM deserves a big trade off for being so easy to play, so it needs to do less damage.

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RDM is already in the bottom four as far as DPS averages go. Calm yourself :P

Funny someone named Bahamut Vermillion has no real skin in either the SMN or RDM game, considering the name is the core aspect of both jobs :3

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

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I'm just having a little fun, I understand Verraise is a strong feature, but I strongly disagree to anyone saying it's OP by any measure. Sure you can see more mechanics with it, but as you said the advantage only lasts as long as your group is still in the progression stage, at which point BLM damage would overtake RDMs unless you optimize the heck out of your oGCD's including CaC and Displacement and even a great RDM can only really hope to match or come within 50-100 DPS below a good BLM.

Are you seriously on this again man? Most people agree that simplicity should not equal less damage. Otherwise you could make the argument that at least half of the other dps classes deserve less damage. And out of fun, I did a clean sweep through each savage group I saw on PF, guess how many reserved RDM spots I saw? Actually 0.

To add, on Halicarnassus' fight, Red Mage is actually in the bottom two with Summoner blazing ahead to fourth place.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

To add, on Halicarnassus' fight, Red Mage is actually in the bottom two with Summoner blazing ahead to fourth place.

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Oh yeah, can't use CaC and Displacement there aggressively unless you're megavigilant, the positioning in it is so crucial.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Oh yeah, can't use CaC and Displacement there aggressively unless you're megavigilant, the positioning in it is so crucial.

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I'm still in progression on it, my group only raids twice a week sadly.

It's ridiculous trying to find a good time to CaC/Displace. One of the best I've found so far is on first Spellblade Fire when she attaches you with a vine to a tank/healer, just displace away for an instant vinebreak.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm still in progression on it, my group only raids twice a week sadly.

It's ridiculous trying to find a good time to CaC/Displace. One of the best I've found so far is on first Spellblade Fire when she attaches you with a vine to a tank/healer, just displace away for an instant vinebreak.

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I love doing that, right after a DC when the GCD is still ticking and lines up perfectly, so nice.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

RDM is always in demand. How about we nerf their ceiling to be below SMN and bring RDM up? RDM deserves a big trade off for being so easy to play, so it needs to do less damage.

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Good luck, yoshi confirmed they r not balancing class based on difficulty. Different class has different flavour and pick what you like

Also people keep bringing up idea verraise is OP. If u r raiding current deltascape savage V2 onward, a few death u can consider a wipe no matter how good is ur raise will be as you will hit enrage. Veraise is only good for practicing the fight which can be compensated by having more pulls for group without RDM so whats your point? U make it sound like having verraise allow group kill boss quicker which is ridiculous, not at our current level of gear ilevel.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Multiple Snips.

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I like your posts regarding the subject.

Basically I'm a "caster" main, meaning I play all three. Mainly dependent on mood, secondly I may go with whichever is better for the fight or group composition. i.e. I'll play SMN if a BLM is in group to buff his magic damage. Or go RDM in a highly mobile fight where I'm not sure of the phases yet. I tend to default to BLM if I'm after "big d*ck DPS". But my numbers are quite competitive on all 3. (You can check my FFLogs but disregard my V2S BLM one :P).

Anyways, my only gripe with RDM which turned me off playing it the last couple of days is that my previous static group blamed me for a wipe in V2S for using BLM because when both healers died to the same mechanic, no one was there to raise them despite the perfect handling of mechanics and the near 5k DPS on said attempt. Ironically, I swapped to RDM, both healers died to the same mechanic at the same time, a double raise saved the wipe and got us the kill.

Now I'm not saying the kill is fully credited to my 4k DPS + 2 raises making RDM OP. But it is frustrating when the community blames the lack of a certain utility on another class that performs better and "forces" you to play another job.

This issue, sadly, not only plagues the casters role, but also the tanks (PLD is the culprit), healers (AST I'm looking at you), melee (hi there NIN) and ranged physical (BRD, stop bullying your gunslinger buddy).

And I honestly do not think it is a balance issue as some of these classes aren't even the best in their roles, but a rather community interpretation of data issue.

~ Phoenicia ~

rdm damage does not need a nerf, its ok that a class can give out constant damage like it is..

but either its rez needs a slight nerf (dual cast has no effect on rez, need swiftcast like the smn, making it as valid as smn in groups), or/and ajust embolden (see quit a few wanting rdm over blm for that reason too)..

as for blm, fix B4 rota, making it a clear dps increase compared to 3.0 rota, making blm as valid as sam with all the buffs it gets (blm gets so little), and fix the fire 1 astral lose during astral ice

as for smn, slight ruin 3 buff + fix demi-Bahamut, so it casts even when it moves.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

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What actually kind of content are you doing? BLM pretty much beats RDM is every fight right now and does just as much constant damage. You seem to have this twisted notion that BLM are unable to cast half the time which is just not true at all. Just to further test it for myself, I did some practice for o3s to farm animals phase on my RDM and it still feels worse than BLM. The uptime of casting is equal but half the time I don't want to c-a-c + disengage to screw up positioning. Don't even get me started on o1 or o2 where we can have pretty much full uptime on casting with BLM

And I'm really not sure of where this meme about the 3.0 rotation being better came from. Ever since the buffs, 4.0 rotations is unquestionably better. So no 3.0 rotation and god forbid if you use the 2.0 rotation like that idiotic reddit post suggested. If you are using the 3.0 rotation then that might be the reason BLM isn't doing as much for you compared to RDMs.

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Originally Posted by Thorbot

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talking about the majority of rdm, they're dps is more constant, besides when learning a fight.., I just posted leave their dps as it is, but their constant dps, melee like + rez + embolden is still too much.., still have issuesin pfs as blm or smn

im still doing less or the same with B4 rotas, its not unquestionablly better

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

talking about the majority of rdm, they're dps is more constant, besides when learning a fight.., I just posted leave their dps as it is, but their constant dps, melee like + rez + embolden is still too much.., still have issuesin pfs as blm or smn

im still doing less or the same with B4 rotas, its not unquestionablly better

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No they aren't. Go look at logs, BLM outdps RDM on every fight and every percentile. There dps isn't "more constant" whatever the hell that means. I think it's time for you to stop posting. You are just spewing nonsense that isn't supported by any facts.

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Originally Posted by Ciderfox

No they aren't. Go look at logs, BLM outdps RDM on every fight and every percentile. There dps isn't "more constant" whatever the hell that means. I think it's time for you to stop posting. You are just spewing nonsense that isn't supported by any facts.

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fflog upload often the best runs, besides some weekly kills..., go in any random pf with a blm and rdm.., the rdm will "constantly" do ok damage..., the blms will do bad, ok, good..., theyre dps (also depending on rng) is not as constant.., even if a good blm out dps a good rdm

or maybe the blms you found that did bad were......bad, personally my dps is constant in the savage fights I've done with pugs

tht is just anecdote experience , not a fact. you are quick to dismiss facts (as evidenced in fflog) since fact do not aligned with your belief. FFlog upload include both bad and good runs. Good run are of course are high percentile while bad run you get low percentile. Go to FFlog statistic and check the low percentile run (basically thats what u mean by bad run) and see the sample sizes. Its more than enough to establish facts that BLM is doing good damage than RDM at all percentile level.
As for your argument RDM is doing "better" dps during practice is nonsense and one-sided. Every class require practice to nail down fight mechanic and best window to dps, where to stand etc.. BLM may have higher learning curve but once u get past the curve u will be doing more damage than anyone. If thats what u hate about BLM then may i suggest you reroll, yoshi mentioned before they dont balance class based on difficulty.
Also to counter your point about embolden is too good that is only partially true. The real issue is there isn't any good casters buff to allow people adopt caster heavy composition than melee/physical composition. And i dont understand the mentality that something good must be taken away, why cant it be shared? Instead of embolden be taken away, why not make embolden also buff magic? Win Win?? Then people may start exploring caster heavy compositon replacing SAM with BLM

not saying rdm is doing less, but more constant,....has to do with the lower skill ceiling for rdm in real raids.., theres a higher risk blm wont do as good (or die) and get punished more

and rdm offers utility on 2 levels, the best rez and embolden..., so does smn in a way, but rdm will still be favoured over smn (and often still blm unless you can ffing prove a high pars on fflogs)

not seeing that rdm us still OP overall is strange...

You can't just say your experience with RDM over taking BLM is the bottom line, it doesn't work that way for almost everyone else, if people made balance decisions off of that every class would just launch a colored ball from their hand and they'd all do the same damage.

Also, Bahamut does cast when it moves, you just have to cast while you're moving to make it stop and use it's instant cast wyrmwave, which is probably why everyone says it doesn't cast and move.