Good King Moggle Mog XII DOWN!

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

Confirm that all the weapons (DoM included) only proc the restore on auto-attacks, but it procs almost all the time (~70% or higher), and just about ~25% of your dmg done

GG SE... mages using auto-attack...

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i dont have any yet, but i agree. SE said they would take mage mechanics into consideration with these weapons.

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

Confirm that all the weapons (DoM included) only proc the restore on auto-attacks, but it procs almost all the time (~70% or higher), and just about ~25% of your dmg done

GG SE... mages using auto-attack...

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... All I can say is someone on the Developer Team really hates Disciples of Magic.

They hate everyone. The key item farm is ridic. Think we've gotten 4 Mog kills today because of it. Always someone outside the party that needs help or someone in the LS that just came back and needs help.

I should start being a dick.

Yeah, the main problem with the 5 NMs is it really exiles players just getting into the Moogle fight. With how asinine and irritating the prereq is, no one will want to do it more than absolutely necessary to continue. Hell, even though it's not by a huge margin, I get irritated if I don't have Swiftsong on me at all times while walking like an idiot across the area. The devs keep making decisions that cause me to seriously question if they have a QA team, because I cannot look at this in any other way but the incredibly cynical viewpoint that the quest was constructed like this strictly to waste time, and annoy the players into not doing it all day.

You know what would make the weapons more worth that effort?

Spells cost 50% less, and spells are 20% more effective.

I would gladly hunt those 5NMs for a chance at that. Magic Acc and Magic Crit? Vintage Cudgel +1 I could make better than that.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

yes lots of linkshells have cheesed it due to the re-raise exploit. it's pretty fucking sad. If this were WoW or any other established MMO with kill tracking, it would be completely discounted for those people.

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SE should ban all those guilds for a week like they do in Wow, and delete their achievement/loot.

And fix the exploit.

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Originally Posted by neizero

SE should ban all those guilds for a week like they do in Wow, and delete their achievement/loot.

And fix the exploit.

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Agree so hard. Inexplicable temptation to start a thread on it, but tbh I cba

I think I just want to beat the Moogle King to say I've beat him... all this talk about crappy weapons AND killing the 5 NM's every time just doesn't sound fun.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

no one will want to do it more than absolutely necessary

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Once to complete the quest!

Weapons are meh for the work that is needed to put into them. Im still 0/quadrillian on ifrit drops anyway so i will keep smackin him around til i get some

Add our LS to the list. Joint effort of Blizzard, Genesis, and Resolution on Mysidia.

Ban people for the reset "exploit?" You're either a l33tist, upset that you haven't won yet, or just stupid if you say that. Considering everything wrong with the game, and the 30 minute timer on that fight, raise resetting is hardly an exploit. It still takes skill to win either way. Ask all the groups who are doing it but can't win, just so they can rush to say how cool they are when they finally do. And to BG and the rest, congrats. You took the hard road and won while some of us may take a little bit longer to do the same, but don't try to discredit my group and others for doing it differently and using an easier method than you. There's nothing great about your achievements either and half the people who play these games can do the same if you give them the chance.

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Originally Posted by Agate

Ban people for the reset "exploit?" It still takes skill to win either way.

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Not that I care about this conversation, but no. It doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Agate

Ban people for the reset "exploit?" You're either a l33tist, upset that you haven't won yet, or just stupid if you say that. Considering everything wrong with the game, and the 30 minute timer on that fight, raise resetting is hardly an exploit. It still takes skill to win either way. Ask all the groups who are doing it but can't win, just so they can rush to say how cool they are when they finally do. And to BG and the rest, congrats. You took the hard road and won while some of us may take a little bit longer to do the same, but don't try to discredit my group and others for doing it differently and using an easier method than you. There's nothing great about your achievements either and half the people who play these games can do the same if you give them the chance.

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I beg to differ, raise-resetting makes the fight SO ridiculously easy, I can't imagine why you'd think that it wasn't an exploit. You're basically starting the fight completely fresh, with only a couple adds and the King to bring down. I can say without any hesitation that it takes absolutely no skill whatsoever to raise-reset the fight. This isn't an easier method, it's an exploit, accept it for what it is.

Just as Ifrit wasn't meant to be stunned using Wrist Flick, this fight wasn't meant to be exploitable through a raise-reset. I don't know how the battle designer could have overlooked this loophole, but I absolutely hope that they notice it and ban the people who used it, strip them of their achievements/loot, and hotfix the fight to get rid of the exploit in question; although unfortunately I seriously doubt that SE will go that route seeing as they want subs at this point, so the most they'll probably do is a hotfix.

Either way, I have much more respect for the LSs that ignored the exploit and took longer to kill Moogle the legitimate way, than those who caved and basically cheated.

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Originally Posted by Agate

but don't try to discredit my group and others for Exploiting the game

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I bet you jumped for joy when someone found out they could wristflick Ifirit.

That's your problem, you think if people can't do it the way you do then they don't have any skill. I'm glad your LS isn't on my server, but I'm still stuck with tons of LS like yours. You guys treat players like crap if they don't play as well as you and you don't try to help them get any better. If you want to laud your achievements over everyone else then you may want to consider playing a more difficult game than this one.

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Originally Posted by Agate

You guys treat players like crap if they don't play as well as you and you don't try to help them get any better.

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I haven't even killed Ifirit or Mog, but I'll give you a free pro-tip on the house.

If you want to get better maybe you shouldn't be exploiting the game, instead you should be trying to actually win the fight legit.

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Originally Posted by Agate

That's your problem, you think if people can't do it the way you do then they don't have any skill. I'm glad your LS isn't on my server, but I'm still stuck with tons of LS like yours. You guys treat players like crap if they don't play as well as you and you don't try to help them get any better. If you want to laud your achievements over everyone else then you may want to consider playing a more difficult game than this one.

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I never said that you had to use mine or anyone else's strat, in fact, if you can create your own strat that works then that's awesome. I think that the people using exploit to defeat Moogle have no skill, because they're essentially cheating. As I said before, if it's taking you a while to be able to beat Moogle legitimately, then I hold tons more respect that you're actually trying to develop your skills and party dynamic in order to do so, rather than caving because you want to look cool and get shiny weapons. I'm sure that the people who take a week or more before they're able to beat it, but who do it legitimately, will have developed much more skill than the people who claim to be from endgame LSs but exploited for the win.

I'm just upset at the suggestion that my friends be banned because we beat Moogle the way we did. I'm not going to hide it and act like I beat it without resetting. I used the reset trick tonight. And if I fought him all day tomorrow with the same group I have no doubt we could win without it. But seriously the difference in beating him with and without the reset trick is not huge, and even if my group decided to quit at just winning with raise resets, they're all very skilled players and there's nothing near ban-worthy about the way we fought those fights.

And Jynx, get bent man you don't know me. XD

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Originally Posted by Agate

I'm just upset at the suggestion that my friends be banned because we beat Moogle the way we did. I'm not going to hide it and act like I beat it without resetting. I used the reset trick tonight. And if I fought him all day tomorrow with the same group I have no doubt we could win without it. But seriously the difference in beating him with and without the reset trick is not huge, and even if my group decided to quit at just winning with raise resets, they're all very skilled players and there's nothing near ban-worthy about the way we fought those fights.

And Jynx, get bent man you don't know me. XD

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You SHOULD be banned, though, as upset as you may be, that's the fact of the matter. If you can beat it legitimately than why don't you? You're either lazy or lack the skill to even try to do so, and I'm confused as to why you're in this game if you're not even going to play it.

The difference is huge; have you ever beaten it legitimately? If the difference wasn't that huge, then why would people even exploit in the first place? You're starting new, you don't have to worry about maintaining MP and DPS, you don't have to keep your game up to par for the entire duration of the fight... believe me, it's much, much easier to use the exploit. Go ahead and see how long it takes you to beat it legitimately, and compare that to how long it took you to use the exploit, and if you still think he exploit doesn't make it significantly easier then you're either dense or just stubborn.

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Originally Posted by Agate

And if I fought him all day tomorrow with the same group I have no doubt we could win without it. But seriously the difference in beating him with and without the reset trick is not huge, and even if my group decided to quit at just winning with raise resets, they're all very skilled players and there's nothing near ban-worthy about the way we fought those fights.

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Exploits similar to the raise-reset exploit on moogle and exploits with much less impact on the fights mechanics have resulted in bans and removal of items/achievements in other established MMO's and for good reason.

If you can do it the legitimate way than why not do it? simple answer is that it is easier to exploit the encounter and it seems like a decent chunk of the community of this game have no qualms about breaking the mechanics of the fight to benefit them which is extremely sad.

lol at the guys butt hurt enough to recommend punishing other players.

I haven't had the opportunity to get into the fight, but that is just silly. That is a tactic that is used in many games where multiple enemies are involved. Take out what you can, raise, take out the rest. Shoot, this tactic is so old, it was used in Arch Angels of FFXI.

Whats next, recommending that SE ban people for sac pulls?

I haven't beaten it the other way yet because I just got around to beating it with the reset tonight. The two kind of go into each other. Most people are probably going to transition from using the reset to not using it. If your party is wiping you're going to raise people, and eventually the reset scenario is going to happen naturally to a party that's just trying to win. It's not like the Ifrit exploit where I think people used wrist-flick to what, prevent Hellfire? You have to walk into that with people on a certain class with the intent to use wrist-flick. I think it's that intent, and the result of Ifrit being stunned, that makes that different than Moogle. Parties may come to the reset scenario by chance, because that's how the game works. Then what, kill yourself because moving on wouldn't be the most skilled way to win? The time constraint plays against resetting so you still have to get up in time, and you still have to launch a good enough assault before or after the reset to win the fight. As cheap as it may be I think it's a strategy more than an exploit. And as far as MP and DPS goes, you're managing both either way. During a reset, you're "worrying" about the time trade-off of standing still and not attacking. And during a "legit" fight there are several chances for everyone to get their MP back up to full anyway...

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Originally Posted by Agate

I haven't beaten it the other way yet because I just got around to beating it with the reset tonight. The two kind of go into each other. Most people are probably going to transition from using the reset to not using it. If your party is wiping you're going to raise people, and eventually the reset scenario is going to happen naturally to a party that's just trying to win. It's not like the Ifrit exploit where I think people used wrist-flick to what, prevent Hellfire? You have to walk into that with people on a certain class with the intent to use wrist-flick. I think it's that intent, and the result of Ifrit being stunned, that makes that different than Moogle. Parties may come to the reset scenario by chance, because that's how the game works. Then what, kill yourself because moving on wouldn't be the most skilled way to win? The time constraint plays against resetting so you still have to get up in time, and you still have to launch a good enough assault before or after the reset to win the fight. As cheap as it may be I think it's a strategy more than an exploit. And as far as MP and DPS goes, you're managing both either way. During a reset, you're "worrying" about the time trade-off of standing still and not attacking. And during a "legit" fight there are several chances for everyone to get their MP back up to full anyway...

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The fact that you're actually trying to defend an obvious exploit is extremely sad and dumb. There is a considerable difference between people dying during a fight and raising them on the fly while keeping up DPS and keeping the tanks alive, and purposefully wiping on the other side of the map so that the majority of the adds are over there, waiting for them to de-aggro for the people who are still alive, raising the dead members, and then waiting for weakness to wear off and attacking again, this time with less adds.

I used the Wrist Flick example because I've actually never experienced an exploit this bad in an MMO before, as far as I can remember, but this exploit is actually much, much worse than that one. You intentionally wait for the King and whatever adds are left to de-aggro, and since they aggro by sight, you again, intentionally, avoid walking in front of them so that you can re-convene and wait for weakness. This is definitely not how the game works, Primals are supposed to be (fairly) difficult to beat; if you think that using an exploit to beat them is how the game works, then GG.

My party and other parties I've spoken to have and will continue to wipe if they get to the point at which other people use the exploit. Why would I sink that low, when I know that I and my LS mates have the skill to beat it without? It's cheap and stupid, and if I'm going to play this game then I'm going to play it, rather than exploit it for HEY GUYS LOOK I KILLED MOOGLE.

Worrying about how long you have to wait until weakness wears off and worrying about where the AoE adds are, which are in blimp-mode, how much DPS you're doing, which add to kill next, possibly raising party members, helping the tanks hold hate, etc., are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. You can't even compare the two, I feel gross for putting them in the same paragraph.

grats to everyone who beat them so far! i still dont understand how to survive the 9999 DMG song.

The prequest with NMs the first time was rly funny. But doing it after evrey win? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

I'm not sure that you and other parties you have spoken to know how to "play" any more. Sounds more like a job than fun. And you're implying that before and after people reset, they don't have to worry about the same things? Well, congrats on your awesome wins.

And to keep at least one of my posts a little productive, here's a brief breakdown of the Moogle skills for people who are interested.

The Bard causes other Moogles to "blimp" making them invincible and strong.
The BLM nukes AoE.
The WHM heals.
The Thief casts Break and steals MP in AoE.
The Archer "sets his sights" and then blasts you pretty hard.
The MRD deals AoE damage.
The GLA tanks like a sissy.
The King can use any of the other Moogle's abilities.

This info is at least 90% accurate, good luck in your fights.

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Originally Posted by Agate

Ban people for the reset "exploit?"

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It's not "exploit", it's exploit and yes SE actually could ban for it if they so chose to. Your post reminded me of people in FFXI who said SE shouldn't/wouldn't ban people for "exploiting" (with "") salvage -- We all know how that turned out.

Anyone who thinks this is not a Exploit and isn't a FAIL way to win this fight is a moron, there i said it.

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

The fact that you're actually trying to defend an obvious exploit is extremely sad and dumb.

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You could have left it at that and summed everything up in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

You could have left it at that and summed everything up in all honesty.

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Sometimes I try too hard :c

Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have posted earlier that you could do that if everyone had been exploiting off what I posted earlier in the thread as an observation.

In any case we beat it without using that trick.

I haven't tried the Moogle fight yet, and honestly I think we'll try to beat it without using the raise method. However I don't care if other people want to beat it that way, and I don't understand why you people care either. After all, what's it to you? Maybe you think only those with enough time to train enough on this fight should win? I guess that makes sense, even though I don't agree with that logic, since other groups winning doesn't affect you in any way. Maybe you feel more special if only you have the kill and the weapons?

This may be off topic but I also find the other "legitimate kill" conditions lame, if someone wants to win the fight with 6 ARCs, why exactly do you care?

This is not FFXI, I understand that obviously, but the reraise method was used a lot back then, and nobody was asking for a ban if you used a shitload of SMN's on hard CoP fights to "exploit" Astral Flow. So why does it matter now? Again, is this all about virtual prestige or some shit?

Finally, it makes me laugh how some linkshells get butthurt over not having the first NA/server kill. What's the difference? You guys need to chill and remember this is only a game, after all. Well, maybe this isn't my place to speak of such things, after all people can compete however they please...

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have posted earlier that you could do that if everyone had been exploiting off what I posted earlier in the thread as an observation.

In any case we beat it without using that trick.

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People would have figured it out even if you hadn't posted so i wouldn't worry :p

Its extremely easy to accidently reset them and have someone up without aggro as we found out on 1 of our attempts so if you guys hadn't found it out i am sure others would have.

Congrats on your kill though even though it isn't really that difficult of a fight it felt good to get the kill :)

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Originally Posted by Penguin

People would have figured it out even if you hadn't posted so i wouldn't worry :p

Its extremely easy to accidently reset them and have someone up without aggro as we found out on 1 of our attempts so if you guys hadn't found it out i am sure others would have.

Congrats on your kill though even though it isn't really that difficult of a fight it felt good to get the kill :)

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Honestly the most "difficult part" of the fight is getting people used to the new combo changes. Had trouble a few attempts due to low DPS (where I'd do ~70-80 DPS and a few others lagged behind at 30-50), but as people are getting used to them the fight is getting easier and easier.

We used a PGL to tank the MRD in Phase2 too, so whoever thinks PGL are worthless now they are pretty good as kite tank! xD

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

We used a PGL to tank the MRD in Phase2 too, so whoever thinks PGL are worthless now they are pretty good as kite tank! xD

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO don't say that or 1 of our members might see and start playing PGL in our groups! :(

Its DPS is still terrible terrible though haha. Has larger MP pool than MRD and GLA and gets Taunt which is exclusive I think?

And better 2nd Wind!

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Originally Posted by Nilheim

I haven't tried the Moogle fight yet, and honestly I think we'll try to beat it without using the raise method. However I don't care if other people want to beat it that way, and I don't understand why you people care either. After all, what's it to you? Maybe you think only those with enough time to train enough on this fight should win? I guess that makes sense, even though I don't agree with that logic, since other groups winning doesn't affect you in any way. Maybe you feel more special if only you have the kill and the weapons?

This may be off topic but I also find the other "legitimate kill" conditions lame, if someone wants to win the fight with 6 ARCs, why exactly do you care?

This is not FFXI, I understand that obviously, but the reraise method was used a lot back then, and nobody was asking for a ban if you used a shitload of SMN's on hard CoP fights to "exploit" Astral Flow. So why does it matter now? Again, is this all about virtual prestige or some shit?

Finally, it makes me laugh how some linkshells get butthurt over not having the first NA/server kill. What's the difference? You guys need to chill and remember this is only a game, after all. Well, maybe this isn't my place to speak of such things, after all people can compete however they please...

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Agreed. And to add...

I think some peoples ego just get to them. Like the fact they are emotionally struck by shamefully going along w/ a non-legit kill... So they have this negative connotation for every person in the world who isn't emotionally struck by using a non-legit tactic to overcome a boss in an incomplete game.

However, to throw the legit side a bone... Going into fights w/ the mentality that the only way you're going to kill is to do it w/o a full party wipe probably boosts performance during the heat of battle.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Its DPS is still terrible terrible though haha. Has larger MP pool than MRD and GLA and gets Taunt which is exclusive I think?

And better 2nd Wind!

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Yeah i think we considered it at one point for the slow combo even but i think we just ended up going with GLA so we didn't have to use a PGL ^^

Every class should be viable for the fight and a group with all 7 classes in it should be capable of killing the fight we just do it the dps burn way as it suites us quite well.

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Originally Posted by Nilheim

nobody was asking for a ban if you used a shitload of SMN's on hard CoP fights to "exploit" Astral Flow. So why does it matter now?

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See, that was something completely different -- People thought the only way to complete BCNMs in CoP were to use SMN SMN SMN BLM BLM, PLD type setups, it wasn't exploiting anything because it's not an exploit to use your job's 2hr.

You know what was an exploit, using FFXI as an example?

"Wall of Justice" which prevented Absolute Virtue or his Wynav's from damaging you.

"Terrain Superiority", which prevented majority of tough Abyssea NMs from attacking you by exploiting geometry errors, i.e if you're in Abyssea Misereaux Coast and fighting the Amphitere NM, you drag him to the bottom the cliff, tank it there and have everyone wail on it (within means) at the top of the cliff, guess who only gets hurt? The tanks on the bottom, no one on the cliff. These are exploits because they completely change the flow of battle by bypassing certain mechanics.

Using Astral Flow x 4-6 isn't an exploit, it's just an auto-win button.

If you reach enough using that logic you can call Atma of the Apocalypse an exploit because it's auto-reraise III inside of Abyssea, the exploit being talked about regarding this battle is something completely different given how XIV itself works. People love to say "THIS ISN'T FFXI!" yet it's being compared the way mechanics were handled in both games.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

See, that was something completely different -- People thought the only way to complete BCNMs in CoP were to use SMN SMN SMN BLM BLM, PLD type setups, it wasn't exploiting anything because it's not an exploit to use your job's 2hr.

You know what was an exploit, using FFXI as an example?

"Wall of Justice" which prevented Absolute Virtue or his Wynav's from damaging you.

"Terrain Superiority", which prevented majority of tough Abyssea NMs from attacking you by exploiting geometry errors, i.e if you're in Abyssea Misereaux Coast and fighting the Amphitere NM, you drag him to the bottom the cliff, tank it there and have everyone wail on it (within means) at the top of the cliff, guess who only gets hurt? The tanks on the bottom, no one on the cliff. These are exploits because they completely change the flow of battle by bypassing certain mechanics.

Using Astral Flow x 4-6 isn't an exploit, it's just an auto-win button.

If you reach enough using that logic you can call Atma of the Apocalypse an exploit because it's auto-reraise III inside of Abyssea, the exploit being talked about regarding this battle is something completely different given how XIV itself works. People love to say "THIS ISN'T FFXI!" yet it's being compared the way mechanics were handled in both games.

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i know it irritates the hell out of me.
the games are different enough to not be compared at all, but people refuse to let FFXI go.

someone even suggested we start pudding nuking camps again because MP is rendering a lot of THMs unable to keep up with CNJ and melee in bosses and partying.
i never once heard a single BLM say they loved and preferred pudding camps over being able to participate in other Party based leveling. especially if BLM was their main.
i myself was a SCH and felt like i was partying with abandoned welfare (government assistance for no income families) children whenever i Puddinged with BLMs.

pls leave your FFXI fetish in the bedroom people. if gay men cant hold hands in public then the same should apply for you FFXI fetishists on these public forums :3

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Originally Posted by Agate

I'm not sure that you and other parties you have spoken to know how to "play" any more. Sounds more like a job than fun. And you're implying that before and after people reset, they don't have to worry about the same things? Well, congrats on your awesome wins.

And to keep at least one of my posts a little productive, here's a brief breakdown of the Moogle skills for people who are interested.

The Bard causes other Moogles to "blimp" making them invincible and strong.
The BLM nukes AoE.
The WHM heals.
The Thief casts Break and steals MP in AoE.
The Archer "sets his sights" and then blasts you pretty hard.
The MRD deals AoE damage.
The GLA tanks like a sissy.
The King can use any of the other Moogle's abilities.

This info is at least 90% accurate, good luck in your fights.

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Probably the most productive thing in this thread yet. Thanks.

PS can you people shut up about the exploits? Let SE decide who gets banned or not. It's the "exploiters" that have to deal with it in the end so quit putting your nose where it doesn't belong.