Tank Balance

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Originally Posted by Alahra

That's certainly true to a degree (though things like class flavor and the like factor into people's choices as well). I don't foresee them making PLD significantly more complex, though, either through DPS or more active mitigation as it's also the "gateway" tank.

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I think that they can safely expand on PLD's gameplay...after level 50.
Leveling from 1 to 50 and doing all mandatory ARR content is plenty enough to learn how to play tank at a smooth pace. ;)

Too bad SE is not even considering balancing DRK m. They won't give it any utility:/

We've reached 200 posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I'm pretty sure this isn't right.

That means for example if you are at 100% damage + 15% Darkside - 20% from Grit, your effective damage is 95%.

However if you stack Sword oath + Rampart + Sentinel the mitigation is multiplicative at 68.9% mitigation.

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That formula is old and probably wrong. According to t hat formula berserk is 40% increase. But it actually is 50%.

There is a more accurate formula found on this page: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/...r-the-dragoon/

Damage increasing buffs do stack multiplicatively.

Quoting from the website:

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So, here’s the Updated Models, which, are a WIP:

Weapon Skills:
((Potency*0.01005)*(WD*0.0400573+1)*(STR*0.1104171)*(DET*0.0001368+1)*BUFFS)-1

Auto-Attacks:
((WD*0.0319937+1)*(STR*0.1387779)*(*DET*0.0001513+1)*BUFFS)-1

Skillspeed Mod for DoTs:
(1+(skillspeed-354)*0.0001285) – Note, this fits into the Buffs section.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I think that they can safely expand on PLD's gameplay...after level 50.
Leveling from 1 to 50 and doing all mandatory ARR content is plenty enough to learn how to play tank at a smooth pace. ;)

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I think we might see it become more complex in 4.0, yes. At 60, PLD is nearly (though not quite) as complex as WAR was at 50, at least in terms of basic rotational stuff. It's still simpler than 50 WAR when you start getting into proper IB timing, Defiance-dropping, and so on, so there's room to add some fiddly bits 60+. I don't see them making huge changes to the 50-60 kit, though.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I don't see them making huge changes to the 50-60 kit, though.

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For me, I don't see them adding skills at the next expansion. There's only so much skill you can fit into hotbars to easy access.

I'm thinking towards traits, and traits don't change much of the gameplay.

And 4.0 is still a long time away :(

Besides, when Yoshi-P talked about HW, he said that ARR was the "easy introduction" and that HW where the game would become more complex and more difficult. Well...for now, HW just follows the exact same footsteps of ARR...and I wonder if he didn't already say that 4.0 will be "more complex and difficult"

There were practically no words about tank balance in 3.07 on the live letter to my knowledge, which seems quite odd since tank balance has been a hotly debated topic in the official forums ever since Dark Knight was introduced and gained even more traction with Savage showing imbalances in the viability of all 3 tanks.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

There were practically no words about tank balance in 3.07 on the live letter to my knowledge, which seems quite odd since tank balance has been a hotly debated topic in the official forums ever since Dark Knight was introduced and gained even more traction with Savage showing imbalances in the viability of all 3 tanks.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q

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Beat me, hate me
You can never break me
Will me, thrill me
You can never kill me
Jew me, sue me
Everybody do me
Kick me, kike me
Don't you black or white me

All I wanna say is that, they don't really care about us!

Definitely something a "tank" would say! :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me, I don't see them adding skills at the next expansion. There's only so much skill you can fit into hotbars to easy access.

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I'm really surprised we got 5 abilities to begin with for HW, honestly. I agree about ability bloat--if they want to add abilities for 4.0, they'll definitely have to do something about it.

I would love to see shield swipe on ogcd(this will also help with eminity but i never have eminity problems) If its too strong u can raise the time of the cd or lower the potency a little. Also taking ur oaths off gcd will help. And for tp issues u can lower fast blade by 5 or 10 tp. Doing these will keep the same playstyle while helping out with eminity, tp and dps (doesnt need to be as much as war or drk but a little more than it has now)

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

doesnt need to be as much as war or drk

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I don't think people are really thinking clearly when they say things like this. PLD needs to actually out-DPS WAR and in some situations DRK by a fairly substantial amount in order for the DPS to be balanced. Why?

In the case of DRK, their DPS goes up a great deal if they're taking physical damage. For PLD to get the same numbers in real encounters as DRK, they need to do much more on a dummy (I would actually prefer they adjust this to some degree so that DRK doesn't "need" to MT as much as it does now). In fact this is sort of the situation you have now with WAR and DRK where WAR does better on a dummy, but DRK does the same or sometimes more in actual encounters.

In the case of WAR, their DPS is huge in burst. So if, for example, a WAR gets pulled into Quarantine the DPS loss is minimal compared to a DRK or PLD since they've already finished their 3x Fell Cleave opener. This was really apparent in 2.0 when PLD could out-DPS WAR on dummies, but very rarely did so in encounters.

I'd like to ask the forum goers to please avoid discussion about supposed "useless" skills and focus on factually verifiable issues that are either present or may become prevalent in the future. The use of some skills like Shield Swipe may not be optimal in their current state but they do reduce incoming damage by forcing enemies to only auto attack for a certain amount of time.


A thought occurred to me last night with how the STR debuff will more than likely need to be moved to Savage Blade if the next raid tier is "more physical." There's never not a need to do more damage to the enemy and the STR debuff "might" be needed next raid tier as well, so why not maximize enemy damage reduction and DPS at the same time. It guarantees 100% application while allowing you to either build aggro or do damage from the various skill trees a Paladin has. My main focus with what I speak about now and in the recent past is preparing jobs for the future and this is HIGHLY suggested. If this change is made I'd also like to suggest buffing the Savage Blade enmity modifier to/or close to that of Rage of Halone's enmity. The other jobs will still be able to bury Paladin in aggro because of the 'PLD doesn't do DPS, it's "mitigation king" status that the developers have forced onto Paladins.

Obviously some other changes need to occur such as quality of life changes on Shield Swipe, possibly Sheltron, slight potency tweaks, maybe enmity multipliers, etc. but that's up to the developers since they force roles for jobs anyway.....

Yea not thinking clearly... have the best mitigation class be the best dps class as a tank too. I dont want to play the broken character. We can be 3rd in dps thats not to far off, if we also have the most mitigation and utility

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

I'd like to ask the forum goers to please avoid discussion about supposed "useless" skills and focus on factually verifiable issues that are either present or may become prevalent in the future. The use of some skills like Shield Swipe may not be optimal in their current state but they do reduce incoming damage by forcing enemies to only auto attack for a certain amount of time.

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This is very short sighted to say (i wont be pedantic and point out that shield swipe's pacification -is- basically useless on all bosses, important mobs and a lot of trash, i know what you meant), because you can't look at things in isolation. You can't just ignore Shield Swipe which is a tool the paladin has but is basically worthless in its current incarnation PURELY DUE TO THE NUMBERS, and then try and fix the class by suggesting big changes to things like strength debuffs being moved around.

Shield Swipe is very very important to look at because it's a skill that has -become- useless in the space of an expansion. It saved TP whenever it procced. It increased your DPS whenever you pressed it because it did more potency damage than your average rage of halone combo (210 vs 203.3). You WANTED to press it as much as possible provided you had a threat lead because it increased your damage! It made Bucklers a viable shield type because they'd result in more procs, and made Bulwark almost a DPS cooldown.

In 3.0 they added bonus threat to it but failed to realise that because they didnt increase the potency it's now rendered worthless. In a dps-heavy meta, the focus is much more on tanks outputting as much damage as possible. In 2.0 it would have been a great part of the kit. In 3.0 it's a dps loss to press shield swipe. It's also a threat loss per GCD to press shield swipe instead of just using Halone combos. That's ridiculous. This skill has become worthless simply due to numbers not being tweaked.

The reason it's brought up so much is because anyone should be able to see that tweaking the damage value (and maybe threat value) will fix a LOT of the issues paladins currently have. It's a three-birds-with-one-stone. Make Shield Swipe a button you want to press as much as humanly possible due to doing higher damage and you'll increase paladin threat over a pure goring/royal/royal rotation, reduce paladin TP consumption as you'll be using more 40 TP skills AND do more damage when tanking to bring the class a little closer to WAR/DRK without eclipsing them. Something like a 260 potency on the swipe would likely be enough, as the average potency of the entire goring/royal/royal rotation is 251-256 depending on skillspeed and how much the dot clips. 260 would make it always a dps boost to press.

It's by far the most flawed part of the kit, especially compared to how it was used at 50. It should NOT be ignored because making it viable has a good chance of fixing a whole host of issues with the class.

That would make it more viable. Would be a better dps increase if made ogcd, but i would take a 260 potency on gcd. But that would be the lowest to make it worth it, 265-270 and im sold :)

I think a sustaining buff for Swipe would be for it to provide an enhancement buff to the next weaponskill (or to specific weaponskills used within ~5 seconds) instead of trying to tune Swipes potency to match the new average of Combo potency. Mainly because in the future when Jobs have new combos or abilities, this whole process would repeat. Swipe's value always flunctuating.

But if it buffed a following WS it'd always of equal value regardless of the what the future holds. For example, if Swipe lets the next attack ignore Tank stance Damage penalty, or guarantees the next attack to Crit, etc etc.

btw it's been a while but iirc Pacification won't stop a mob from using their telegraphs and buffs, but it does interrupt them. PVP Pacification though does prevent ability use

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Have the best mitigation class be the best dps class as a tank too

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I'd like you to explain how WAR's mitigation is inferior to PLDs. DRK has potential problems if they make an encounter with large physical damage (particularly smooth damage), but otherwise it's basically identical to PLD other than having a weaker Sentinel.

We've been through that bs in 2.0. No tank can be the "best mitigation" class by any measurable amount and when it actually is it's game-breaking.

On the other hand, it's just a fact that jobs that lack burst need to do more sustain DPS to make up for the fact. Almost 50% of PLD damage is in DoTs and auto-attacks so it simply needs to either burst harder (impossible unless they introduce new skills) or do much more DPS.

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in the future when Jobs have new combos or abilities, this whole process would repeat

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I don't know that there's a way to avoid this other than keeping future abilities similar potencies or making them off-gcd or utility skills.

For example, Royal Authority is a pure DPS finisher. If they were to introduce new higher potency skills it would also quickly fall into oblivion. They just have to go through and tweak things as they go along like they did with Aero II.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

I'd like you to explain how WAR's mitigation is inferior to PLDs. DRK has potential problems if they make an encounter with large physical damage (particularly smooth damage), but otherwise it's basically identical to PLD other than having a weaker Sentinel.

We've been through that bs in 2.0. No tank can be the "best mitigation" class by any measurable amount and when it actually is it's game-breaking.

On the other hand, it's just a fact that jobs that lack burst need to do more sustain DPS to make up for the fact. Almost 50% of PLD damage is in DoTs and auto-attacks so it simply needs to either burst harder (impossible unless they introduce new skills) or do much more DPS.


I don't know that there's a way to avoid this other than keeping future abilities similar potencies or making them off-gcd or utility skills.

For example, Royal Authority is a pure DPS finisher. If they were to introduce new higher potency skills it would also quickly fall into oblivion. They just have to go through and tweak things as they go along like they did with Aero II.

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Technically though, in my opinion although it might not be "more" then Paladins. Warriors do have the best mitigation in the game, because it works for everything and isn't hindered by type.

Which is how all defenses should be.

I got to the first post about someone chiding DRK because they can't figure out how to not DA Dark Dance or Dark Passenger while Blood Price is up and just stopped reading.

Or I wish I had. So pretty much what we've got here is...

Another "WAR IS LYKE OMG UHMAYZING SO WELL DEZINED, DRK IS ALL WEERD AND I DUN GET IT AND UNNNNHHH, AND STOOPID PLD JUST SUCKS, MEH!" thread. Way to get and keep some seriously sick hate on the same tired and trite rhetoric we've seen in approximately 1800 billion billion other threads.

A solid WAR has great mitigation. I didnt say it didnt. WAR is the best tank class in the game and may be too strong. But sentinal and HG are better and rampart is solid too. Ramp+sent, HG, Ramp+sent is pretty powerful. People also forget all the small shield mitigations which happen more now. Then raidwide mitigation with str down, devine viel, stoneskin and cover. And right now things are more magic based to get people into the new drk class. When more physical based fights come back PLD will shine again. I wasnt talking bad about any tanks, a good tank is a good tank.

And i dont think PLD is stupid or weak. Im just happy there buffing it. It doesnt even need that much of a buff. People are just sensitive and like to talk smack and/or argue. I put this up to get people inputs on what they think or would like the buffs to be, but something so simple gets everyones panties in a bunch. There where some good responses and good debates

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

When more physical based fights come back PLD will shine again

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Lets me hit you with some brain knowledge. Mitigation is moot. Nobody cares. As long as the tank is surviving then it is all gravy. PLD does not bring enough mitigation to allow for increased healer DPS and is not synergistic with any class really.

The problem PLD faces is utility, in the fact that it has none. You could make a fight physical damage heavy (AS2) and DrK/WAR would still be preferable.

So no. In PLDs current state you could tune an entire fight to its kit and it would still be the worst tank.

U bring up good points but hg does allow more healer dps, and it has utility (str down debuff, clemency, stoneskin, devine viel, protect). In this current state it is the worst overall tank. But if ur a good player its still fine to play with. And with everyone SACing there fine for raid. I just cant wait for the buffs and hopefully poisoning pots. But overall it was a good post but nothing that i didnt already know

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

U bring up good points but hg does allow more healer dps, and it has utility (str down debuff, clemency, stoneskin, devine viel, protect)

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HG allowing more healer DPS ? lol it has 7min CD and is generally used at very specific times in raid fights. Plus, a well-planned Living Dead can potentially bring more healer DPS than HG because they can stop healing the DRK for a longer period of time and just bene him at the end of the timer to cleanse the Walking Dead. It also has a lower CD.

STR down is shit because of the potency of the move its tied to. Plus it's unnecessary mitigation and doesn't bring anything to the raid (vs Delirium/Dragon Kick which is really good). Clemency is absolute shite. Stoneskin has the exact same flaws as Clemency and is weaker. Divine Veil is really weak for its CD, on top of being not practical at all and having the possibility to completely miss allies when MTing since it has only 15y radius. Protect ? lol

Yeah these utilities do exist but are useless. In its current state, you won't ever bring a PLD because "Divine Veil is so good for this fight !" or "Clemency is a really nice support for healers !". That's why they need a tweak.

Im not trying to argue or say we are the best tank. Im just saying its not as bad as people are saying. This is more to see what buffs people want to see them have. I produce 600-700 dps MTing in shield oath keeping the debuff up without stance dancing. But obviously on these american servers u have to be "best class and gear" and who cares about skill. And even when they have ther "OP" team they still have to sac.Doesnt sound like a plds fault sounds like people should learn there rotations more. This is my last post. I wasnt bragging about PLD and i wasnt putting others down i was just trying to see what buffs people want..... damn

Ya know,

It's pretty stupid that maim, berserk, and darkside all affect flash but fight or flight doesn't. Especially maim. Why is that all damage and not physical damage like FoF?

That is all.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Ya know,

It's pretty stupid that maim, berserk, and darkside all affect flash but fight or flight doesn't. Especially maim. Why is that all damage and not physical damage like FoF?

That is all.

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Pretty sure that Maim and Darkside don't affect flash. Zerk only affects Flash because Zerk doesn't increase damage but attack power and Flash scales from attack power.

The last time I tested Flash (around a year ago), it was affected by Maim. Don't know if they changed it.

Edit: And the ShO/Defiance modifiers (damage and enmity).

Just did some tests and I can confirm that Flash is affected by Maim. My bad, didn't think it would. That's kinda funny but not that important lol.

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

I produce 600-700 dps MTing in shield oath keeping the debuff up without stance dancing.

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with the same effort you would bring 1.000 DPS as Warrior and 800-900 DPS as DRK.

We not only deliver the worst Raid Support of all three tanks, we deliver the weakest DPS as well!

1000 dps is on the low side for war :/

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

1000 dps is on the low side for war :/

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I think they meant in an actual raid with mechanics and not in your backyard on a striking dummy for a 1min burst with full slaying gear.

Depending on the fight and the gear, hitting over 1000 on a warrior isn't really that unheard of. As far as straight parsing on warrior (or a fight like faust) warriors are pushing the 1400 margin and with oppressor dps coming in around 1300 on the record high end and about 1200 for warriors. a2s is even higher due to aoe. a3s is around the 900 - 1000 dps range and a4s is around the 1000 - 1100 range.

So if you are strictly talking about a1/2s then 1000 is a bit low for a warrior. I'm currently doing 900 - 1000 on my drk in a1s with about 1250 on faust as OT. But obviously this is dependent on various factors such as gear and healer competence to allow for more liberal stance transitions.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

... I'm currently doing 900 - 1000 on my drk in a1s with about 1250 on faust as OT. But obviously this is dependent on various factors such as gear and healer competence to allow for more liberal stance transitions.

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Full 200 left side, all slaying rt side (2 eso pieces, no gordian) in full OT mode on Pally - I pull 990 on faust as paladin.
200 MH, 190 head-hands-legs-feet, 180 chest, 200 waist and same right side with DRK - I pulled a 910 (2 runs) and i am still working out some kinks on the rotation including potion usage

The problem is exemplified when MTing. Comparing full tank stance runs (#healerproblems) my average DPS for all pulls that entire night as DRK was around 515, Paladin was around 550 - 575 range.

Two different group comps so, there are other factors to consider BUT, the DPS difference with my lesser geared and not as perfected DRK is not that far off on a full ESO paladin.

Once I get my new chest piece <hello void ark> I have a hard time justifying bringing my pally back to this raid. DRK has enough survivability for every level of the present raid content, why not also bring the deeps?

***SIDE NOTE**** Please SE, let my BIS tank gear always be universal, that way I can return to playing the tank role that is needed.

**second side note** Please also let this gear allow for multiple glamours, because glamour is the REAL endgame.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Ya know,

It's pretty stupid that maim, berserk, and darkside all affect flash but fight or flight doesn't. Especially maim. Why is that all damage and not physical damage like FoF?

That is all.

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Actually, currently in an argument about this.

Got people trying to say FoF *does* affect Flash because FoF increases weapon damage.

Of course, no one actually has any math I don't think. Just dummy testing.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Actually, currently in an argument about this.

Got people trying to say FoF *does* affect Flash because FoF increases weapon damage.

Of course, no one actually has any math I don't think. Just dummy testing.

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Flash scales off Attack power FOF doesn't modify Attack power so yeah I think they're wrong... but I'd have to look.

Well Fell Cleave is gonna be nerfed in 3.2.

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Originally Posted by RussW

Well Fell Cleave is gonna be nerfed in 3.2.

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Er, source?

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Originally Posted by RussW

Well Fell Cleave is gonna be nerfed in 3.2.

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Lol wuuuut? Source. Now.