Turning DRK into a tank was a huge mistake.

I will admit to wanting DRK to be a DPS. I was upset when I saw the reveal, even though I had leveled both MRD and GLD to 50 in 1.0 it had been sometime since I had Tanked anything seriously. At the time of of announcement I had been using my Tank jobs to solo storyline content, FATES, and hunt marks. However in time I realized Tanking was really the best option for DRK. When considering what it was out of the job, the presentation I wanted was not of an attacker behind the enemy worrying about positionals. A Dark Knight wears heavy armor, uses both spell and blade to defeat their enemies. I understand i'm speaking more to the lore of the job and not the gameplay aspect here, but as a long time fan of the job and the series as a whole I cannot separate the two.

The idea of them not being traditionally tanks I feel is a convenient loss of memory for many who choose to only think of the FFXI era of DRK.

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/blackrose/cecil4.jpg
This is one of the originators. This is how it started.

http://i.imgur.com/uFvxZS1.png
This is how it is. They are doing a fine job of staying close to the traditional aspects of the series. I hope it continues.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Yes. Especially since they usually DRAIN hp as well.

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Only drain-heavy DRK that comes to mind is, again, Gafgarion. Nevermind that drains in the console RPGs were unreliable to begin with (more efficient to have someone with Cure just heal you).

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FF4, Cecil.

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Cecil sacrificed HP to deal damage with Darkness, which was his job command. That was it. Cecil didn't have anything even remotely resembling tank until he became a Paladin.

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The "issue" is players from FFXI who either haven't played any other FF game or are simply obsessed with the FFXI version.

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XI merely followed what was set before it. Consumed HP to deal more damage. Mind you that XI's DRK also had drains but that made it nowhere near a tank. Blood Weapon was there partly to counteract Souleater and partly as an oh shit button. Drain had a laughably long cast time and was unreliable unless you somehow had insanely high Dark Magic skill and magic accuracy. Dread Spikes was there to keep the DRK from getting two-shotted when they inevitably stole aggro.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

When considering what it was out of the job, the presentation I wanted was not of an attacker behind the enemy worrying about positionals. A Dark Knight wears heavy armor, uses both spell and blade to defeat their enemies. I understand i'm speaking more to the lore of the job and not the gameplay aspect here, but as a long time fan of the job and the series as a whole I cannot separate the two.

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Heavy armor doesn't really mean anything. Well, I guess it does if you don't give your classes traits to emphasize on defense and instead split them strictly by armor class. It's just that I've seen DPS classes in heavy armor that can still get two-shotted while tanks in the same armor can survive such hits, so the heavy armor bit doesn't hold much weight with me.

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The idea of them not being traditionally tanks I feel is a convenient loss of memory for many who choose to only think of the FFXI era of DRK.

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It's a combination of known mechanics and how dark/evil/shadow knights are often portrayed. The more common thing is that the good/holy knight deals less damage for better defense while the dark/evil knight deals more damage sacrificing defense. Now combine this with the most recent version of DRK chronologically speaking (FFXI's DRK) and it's no surprise why some people react like they do.

XIV's implementation is unique for an MMORPG and managed to make tank DRK work (sort of), but I'm not going to say people wanting a DPS with a huge sword are being unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

*snip*

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Adding to the DRK train:

FFX-2 has a Dark Knight Sphere where you drain HP to deal a lot of damage but are slow as hell.

Also there weren't a lot of "tank" classes in previous FF titles (there's Steiner and sort of Auron?) because if you can force an NPC to attack one of your characters it becomes fairly easy to cheese the system....

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Bunch of poor arguments

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Heavy armor and high HP in the early FF games made that character a tank. Your issue is that you're applying strict MMO definitions to non-MMO games.

Cecil was the party "tank" throughout the entire game, both when he was a DRK and PLD. Leon was a "tank" in FF2. Gafgarion was a tank.

There wasn't a such thing as enmity, so the MMO concept of "controlling threat" didn't exist in past games. So the aspect of a tank that matters is high HP and high defense. Something that ALL DRKs had in all previous FFs.

For the most part as a healer DRK should focus on vitality. There should never be a point such as the one last night where I zone into A4 with a DRK with 12.9k health and a DRG with 12.3k health and the DRK was requesting to main tank. I am sorry but if you have only 600 more health than a dps because you have all str accessories (and the only gear they had at 180) you shouldn't be tanking a even ladybug.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

For the most part as a healer DRK should focus on vitality. There should never be a point such as the one last night where I zone into A4 with a DRK with 12.9k health and a DRG with 12.3k health and the DRK was requesting to main tank. I am sorry but if you have only 600 more health than a dps because you have all str accessories (and the only gear they had at 180) you shouldn't be tanking a even ladybug.

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That DRK has significantly more defense and magic defense than that DRG. It also has defensive CDs to mitigate damage. If health were everything, why let DRK or PLD MT at all? Surely WAR is the best MT, what with all that health they have.

Makes me wish I have leveled paladin for my second 60 instead of drg.

Cause I'd still run full str LOL

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

That DRK has significantly more defense and magic defense than that DRG. It also has defensive CDs to mitigate damage. If health were everything, why let DRK or PLD MT at all? Surely WAR is the best MT, what with all that health they have.

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This argument only works with a static that is well practiced and knows what they are doing.

Whether you intended to or not, and without saying it, you are making the "minimum HP to survive a tank buster" argument here. Essentially if you have enough HP to survive the boss's tank buster plus an auto attack or follow-up, then any more HP than that is "wasted" and should go to STR. This is true... but only for a group with good players that don't make mistakes.

12.9k HP in a duty finder A4 is NOT acceptable. The DPS will make many mistakes and the healers aren't necessarily great at their jobs. For those reasons, you NEED an HP buffer. Last week I went in with 15.5k HP, and the healers were struggling even when I used CDs perfectly because they were having to account for DPS making mistakes, taking damage and dying.

I always carry my STR acc with me, but I equip the VIT ones by default and only swap if it seems safe to.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

This argument only works with a static that is well practiced and knows what they are doing.

Whether you intended to or not, and without saying it, you are making the "minimum HP to survive a tank buster" argument here. Essentially if you have enough HP to survive the boss's tank buster plus an auto attack or follow-up, then any more HP than that is "wasted" and should go to STR. This is true... but only for a group with good players that don't make mistakes.

12.9k HP in a duty finder A4 is NOT acceptable. The DPS will make many mistakes and the healers aren't necessarily great at their jobs. For those reasons, you NEED an HP buffer. Last week I went in with 15.5k HP, and the healers were struggling even when I used CDs perfectly because they were having to account for DPS making mistakes, taking damage and dying.

I always carry my STR acc with me, but I equip the VIT ones by default and only swap if it seems safe to.

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This^ this ^ and allllll thiiissss^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Though to be fair, if a tank doesn't know when to switch trinkets, a VIT and STR swap isn't going to be the difference between a win and a n "Lol, you dead, game over, you lose, git gud"

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Heavy armor and high HP in the early FF games made that character a tank. Your issue is that you're applying strict MMO definitions to non-MMO games.

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Let's start with the first part.

There is no such thing as a tank in console RPGs. What partly defines the tank is having the ability to draw enemy attention to them, which is not a sure thing in RPGs; even those with formation mechanics (see: Breath of Fire II & III, several of the SaGa games). You can have hardier characters join you, but there's very little they can do to guarantee the enemy focuses on them. This is why MMORPGs use the term tank and console RPGs do not.

Secondly, if we're talking about armor and HP relative to tank status in an MMORPG, then it makes sense to approach it from that standpoint. Heavy armor means different things in console RPGs vs MMOs because console RPGs don't allow for stuff like defensive cooldowns or other mechanics with which to block/avoid damage (even moreso if the game is turn-based). Alacran mentioned heavy armor and DRK and claimed it helps push it into the tank pool. I merely argued against it because I can name several examples of DPS in heavy armor that will die if the boss so much as breathes on them despite tanks being able to wear that exact same armor (Gladiators and Destroyers in Lineage II, any plate DPS spec in WoW, DRK in FFXI). The point being that heavy armor in MMORPGs doesn't instantly translate to tank.

I main WAR but also play PLD and DRK and stack STR and so does my static DRK co-tank. Our healers have zero issue. The problem is the "fad" players who just pick up this job with zero tanking skills and thinking that because veteran tanks can do it in all STR and pump good DPS that so can they. Once again, the problem is the bad players.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Regarding STR gear. I have to point out that VIT doesn't.... DOESN'T give you more Defense or Magical Defense... Someone with 2000 more vit is same squishy... VIT is only necessary or helps if there's a cap in some mega boss of raid attack... Or if the healer is not too alert to your vit. By far, when I use tanks I prefer to go STR, even if I still using CDs and stuff.

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Do you suggest putting points into dex (for avoidance stats)?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Let's start with the first part.

There is no such thing as a tank in console RPGs.

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FF7. Cover materia mastered(100% cover). 255 VIT, 9999HP.

Tank.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

This is actually a by-product of this community's (somewhat unhealthy) obsession with non-DPS jobs doing DPS.

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trying to make a tank focus on dps is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Learn to MMO people staying alive is always greater than dps if your role is tank, to say other wise is the words of a bad.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Secondly, if we're talking about armor and HP relative to tank status in an MMORPG,

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Um, no, we didn't. We said that since there's no actual "tank" capability in a single-player game (outside of characters having skills such as Cover to protect others), characters are instead separated into groups of various squishiness depending on what armour they're allowed to equip.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

That DRK has significantly more defense and magic defense than that DRG. It also has defensive CDs to mitigate damage. If health were everything, why let DRK or PLD MT at all? Surely WAR is the best MT, what with all that health they have.

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I heal a DRK yesterday (Fractal) with only 12k hp and was terrible. Adds hit him betwen 7.5k (skills he doesnt dodge) / 3.5k and 2k. So 7.5k + 3.5 consecutive hits = dead... I didnt saw a parry on my log during all the dungeon (he prolly did some but i cant find any).... even more sad... when he died MNK grab the boss and was easier to heal (11k hp- lol?) all cuz he had STR jewelry and adds at his back btw....

Why not just compromise and wear STR rings and the rest of your accessories as VIT if you're worried about DPS checks? Besides, the STR advantage you're getting overall is pretty minor in comparison the actual DPS members of your party.

As a progression tank, I'll say this. Vitality should be treated like accuracy. You need it, but once you have enough, any extra is worthless. STR on the other hand is always useful, you can never have enough, and as long as you're not dying, the more you have the better.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

FF7. Cover materia mastered(100% cover). 255 VIT, 9999HP.

Tank.

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No counter linked to it? Get gud. :b

MFW when people still trying to say that DRK is supposed to be a DPS. Turn off your FFXI goggles please. DRK has always been a tanky class, just like Warriors and Knights in all the previous games. FFXI was just that weird one that screw things up. Like letting NIN be a tank (LOL). However, DRK has always been one of the tankier classes in the games. And just because the games didn't have defined roles (they were single player games after all) doesn't me they can be shrugged off and FFXI is the only example ever. That's just dumb. What's even more dumb is that people are ignoring the BLAIRINGLY obvious tell that DRK is a tank. It's a dark KNIGHT!

Honestly, most of the "traditional" jobs here are really just a shadow or their former selves IF their even that, while some are just that job in name only.

The main gimmick behind a DRK has always been using one's HP for attacks; they circumvented this by making it use MP instead.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Honestly, most of the "traditional" jobs here are really just a shadow or their former selves IF their even that, while some are just that job in name only.

The main gimmick behind a DRK has always been using one's HP for attacks; they circumvented this by making it use MP instead.

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They aren't afraid to give their own twist to the classic jobs. It's refreshing, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

They aren't afraid to give their own twist to the classic jobs. It's refreshing, if you ask me.

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Isn't that what the original classes where trying to do?