I chose BRD for swift gameplay, if I wanted to cast I would have chosen a Mage.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

And you never explained how a cast bar butchers the playstyle for bard. You just call it clunky and rant about it. What do you sacrifice other than mobility with it?

Instant hits on mobs? You're still on the GCD so that only matters when you miss a deathblow.
Weaving 2 skills oGCD?
Anything else?

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How can you not see how it changes the playstyle, would a dragoon be happy with cast bars for all their skills or a ninja. To basically reiterate it again our playstyle shifted from something that would more closely resemble how a melee class functions but from a ranged point of view and turned us into ghetto black mages instead. Id call that a rather significant change in direction and playstyle.

Your playing what a paladin or warrior based on your character im guessing, how would you feel to have all your pld/war abilities turned into cast timers after 2 years of playing with them.

"Ghetto black mages"

Wow. Just wow.

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Originally Posted by Fitzy

How can you not see how it changes the playstyle, would a dragoon be happy with cast bars for all their skills or a ninja. To basically reiterate it again our playstyle shifted from something that would more closely resemble how a melee class functions but from a ranged point of view and turned us into ghetto black mages instead. Id call that a rather significant change in direction and playstyle.

Your playing what a paladin or warrior based on your character im guessing, how would you feel to have all your pld/war abilities turned into cast timers after 2 years of playing with them.

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Again you skipped what you are sacrificing besides mobility.

I play BLM and WAR, I don't think I would have an issue with a buff giving cast bars for WAR if it was that big of a boost. BLM got an extension of the cast time on their spells with a harsher penalty for movement, the sky isn't falling.

Just wish that they'd give it at lower level for us if they plan to keep it, so I could level up my Archer/Bard without chancing the style after ~50 levels.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Again you skipped what you are sacrificing besides mobility.

I play BLM and WAR, I don't think I would have an issue with a buff giving cast bars for WAR if it was that big of a boost. BLM got an extension of the cast time on their spells with a harsher penalty for movement, the sky isn't falling.

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Then as i said earlier good for you, your in the small group that generally likes the change.

As for what your giving up, you hit most of the stuff on top of lose of auto attacks, loss of potential procs, lost resources from the procs and lose of damage to recover those resources, as well as the usual issues that come with interupting casts after things like repelling shot or being unable to shoot out a fast silence when the need arised.

However you took the original quote completely out of context. The willingness to sacrifice mobility had nothing to do with the acceptance of cast timers. The stuff about cast timers was mostly about having a playstyle that is NOT the playstyle that we originally picked the job for forced upon those that play it.

Essentially look at it kinda like 2 parts.

The first is that something had to be sacrificed to achieve the damage increase
The second is the ability should not affect the overall playstyle of the job.

Now people will either agree with 1 or the other, both or neither.
I happen to agree with both. I was willing to sacrifice the mobility but I want to retain the original playstyle of the job.

The problem is that Wanderers Minuet, somewhat fits the first part, but completely fails the second part.

The example i posted earlier however generally fulfills both parts and i feel this would have been a batter way to go about it

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An example I used before which I based around 1.0 dragoons Power Surge skill and that I am told was similar to hunter from WoW (I can’t confirm since I was an FFXI player) was a passive skill that granted a damage buff after standing still and using 3 weaponskills and for every further 3 consecutive weaponskills granted a stack, stacking up to say 3 times.
Upon moving, the buff would be removed and a debuff would be placed on you preventing you from reacquiring the buff for say the next 15-20 seconds. This debuff might even prevent auto attacks or something if balancing required further repurcussions.

The above example achieves almost the same effect as Wanderers Minuet but doesn’t drastically alter the 2.X playstyle by introducing stupid restrictions such as cast timers.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

Just wish that they'd give it at lower level for us if they plan to keep it, so I could level up my Archer/Bard without chancing the style after ~50 levels.

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The best to have done, probably, was overhaul Bard from the ground up, establish it as a caster shooter at level 1 and later in levels provide Wanderer's Minuet as a stance that turned everything insta-cast with a minor reduction. This inversion would have set how people would have come into Bard, and then unlocking Wanderer's at a later level would have been better received.

Would have made more sense too, having WANDERER'S Minuet let you move around freely.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Again you skipped what you are sacrificing besides mobility.

I play BLM and WAR, I don't think I would have an issue with a buff giving cast bars for WAR if it was that big of a boost. BLM got an extension of the cast time on their spells with a harsher penalty for movement, the sky isn't falling.

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Rapid fire and instant effects gives Bard a smooth flow with a lot of their abilities. This also includes needing to repel on reflex, pop a silence at a moments notice, and play a song (the sooner the better) without having to flick a thumbstick or hit the cancel button. That's what the playstyle was about, quick reflex. It's janky now if under Minuet, and even just popping it off unless your skill queue is clear will need like a quarter of a second to come off.

What does Japan and other language forums feel about the casting stances?

I doubt very much that se will remove cast times, why not just learn how to play the class with it's changes? At least give the changes a chance... It's not like 100% of those that dislike the changes have done actual raiding and testing.
Also there is a threshhold in which you could actually move and the cast will still go off, you do not have to sit there and wait, blm is the same for that.

And please stop putting blm or caster in the conversations, most of you have never even played as a blm

This topic again?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YLoYLbBbYT...mestrength.gif

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

What's changed in the playstyle since then? Nothing really, other than the skill not being instant.

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What's changed about that guy? Nothing really, just that his tongue is missing.

Skills not being instant is everything to some people. Physical DPS jobs should have instant skills. That should be the difference between Disciples of War and Disciples of Magic. Sure there are hybrids, but the hybrid should make sense (PLD with white magic, DRK with Dark Magic, BRD with songs). If they wanted BRDs to have less instant skills give them more songs that are good enough to be put into every rotation, don't change everything that already existed. Iron Jaws could've been a song.

Why have 4 ranged DPS that all don't play with instant skills? Are ranged instant skills that overpowered? Why isn't there more creative ways to balance that besides doing away with them?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

snip

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Bard and Machinist isn't a SMN or a BLM, we don't have the same power output or play style to either of those jobs even right now so that's incomparable, Bards/Machinist have abilities that are still instant too. The difference between SMN/BLM and BRD/MCH is that we can swap play style at will given the situation and BLM/SMN of course does more DPS.

I for one like Iron Jaws how it is right now though, it's a sweet ability and it's with a cast time like a song would be regardless. The animation doesn't matter much as the effect of it is clear but I do love the animation of it and sidewinder as well.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

What's changed about that guy? Nothing really, just that his tongue is missing.

Skills not being instant is everything to some people. Physical DPS jobs should have instant skills. That should be the difference between Disciples of War and Disciples of Magic.

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Why should an arrow go from your bow into a mob instantly when you decide to do it?

The change sucks. It makes no sense, and it is bad game design to change the core of a class to be like any other now.

The devs don't know what to do with the class. They called it a dps class, and after that a support dps. If they are trying to make bard a "Support dps" We need more options with songs, We need options for when we don't need to play TP. Foe? It needs to work for Melee also. Songs that give buffs base on party makeup.

If you want to make bard into a support dps. We need more options for that support. Raiding is only one part of the game.


Second off, since our dps is lower because of being "support" Remove the stupid 15 percent pen from playing songs. and last and not least. GTFO with us being caster bards.


Simple, EASY things that could have advance the job and kept the core of what made it fun. You can have that feedback for free don't even need to pay me for helping you. Because the guy you paid to get the new bard ideas out. Is not cutting it.

I (i180 BRD) was in an A4 party last night with another BRD and we had no problem farming it. The trick is to know when to turn off WM when you have to run around a bit more than normal or when picking up adds. Sometimes I think people forget that they don't always have to keep songs or stances up. I believe WM was meant to be situational originally and the recent fix in 3.01 to WM helped that.

Personally I would like to see wanderer's minuet removed... and baked into the class at level 1 so they start with casts. I never want to see a bard running around in a circle trying to kite a boss ever again.

Another acceptable alternative would be for the game to identify when someone is trying to do that and kill the offending player instantly.

Sigh... I can dream....

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Personally I would like to see wanderer's minuet removed... and baked into the class at level 1 so they start with casts. I never want to see a bard running around in a circle trying to kite a boss ever again.

Another acceptable alternative would be for the game to identify when someone is trying to do that and kill the offending player instantly.

Sigh... I can dream....

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I totally get that feeling, for my warrior I wanted to just toss my Axe at my archer/bard members who wanted to derp-kite instead of the monster.

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Originally Posted by Brundlefly

I (i180 BRD) was in an A4 party last night with another BRD and we had no problem farming it. The trick is to know when to turn off WM when you have to run around a bit more than normal or when picking up adds. Sometimes I think people forget that they don't always have to keep songs or stances up. I believe WM was meant to be situational originally and the recent fix in 3.01 to WM helped that.

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My BRD is still at 50, so take this with a grain of salt, but when I read the update notes for WM and Gauss, I was under the impression that they were implemented for this very thing, especially now that they are instant with 25(?) second recast timers. Throw on WM/GB to burst with the attacks that require it, take it off until your skills come back off cooldown, repeat.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Why should an arrow go from your bow into a mob instantly when you decide to do it?

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why does it when WM is not on?

I'm personally fine with using GB on my MCH. I like the fact that I can either not have it equipped to increase my mobility, or I can equip it to increase my damage at the trade off of mobility. While I'm not fond of the weakening of the two skills related to it, (and by "not fond", I mean absolutely enraged by the drastic damage decrease on Ricochet), I am quite happy with GB itself now that the cast time has been removed and the damage increased. I can't speak for Bard players who were more used to not having a cast time, but for me at least, (having leveled both DRG, (no cast times), and ACN, (cast times)), I'm perfectly fine with it.....

Granted though, MCH works quite well as a "situational" class, particularly at 60, and I'm not sure how that is for BRD. With MCH at least, we have a lot of skills we don't use in our normal rotations, but that let us adapt instantly to changing circumstances. Have a group that wants to speed run through the trash mobs? Equip GB, throw out Bishop, and go full AoE mode. Have a bad tank that can't hold group aggro? Knock back one of the off enemies and bind them to take them out of the fight for long enough to take down the main target. Have something that needs to die quickly? Pop GB, Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and Hawk's Eye, toss out Rook and activate it's boosted mode for the physical damage debuff, throw up Hot Shot, then toss out Wildfire and hit it with everything you've got all at once. Have something with a whole lot of AoEs that you have to keep an eye out for? Leave GB off and circle strafe it, while debuffing it whenever possible based on whether it's a physical attacker or caster.....

My point is that given how much MCH is designed to be able to adapt to any given situation, I'm perfectly fine with GB being a stance change that actually changes how the class plays, which adds to the situational adaptability of the class. Again though, I can't speak from the perspective of BRD players, but from the way everyone talks, they're very similar but with different strengths to their abilities.......

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

why does it when WM is not on?

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Exactly, why should physical blows take no time but magic requires time to happen? It's your argument, not mine.

Singing a song makes you draw the bow all the way back before firing, taking longer to shoot. That's why you see Olympic archers drinking tea with honey.

I am sure Yoshi-P is going to respond about the new playstyle, design philosophy, and the recent change in some manner in the live letter tomorrow. I am fine with how it is now, my only real gripe and still kind of is the damage output. I don't mind casting at all.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

Absolutely. We can change stances to adapt to the fight. Can a BLM/SMN swap to lesser DPS for instant casts? No (unless they wanna spam Scathe lol), so we are still in fact more mobile than the other ranged DPS. Nothing has changed in being the most mobile DPS on the field.

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Amazing someone that actually knows, so for that i thank you :)

The fact that we have YET ANOTHER 23-page thread on this topic is proof positive that the current status quo is completely unacceptable.

You folks can defend it in any way you like. The fact remains that a significant proportion of Bard players do not like the change and are jumping ship for other jobs (or jumping out of the game entirely, for that matter). THAT is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

The fact that we have YET ANOTHER 23-page thread on this topic is proof positive that the current status quo is completely unacceptable.

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I wouldn't go that far. This is something that happens in any MMO when a class undergoes a change. Some will welcome it, some will detest it and switch jobs, and some will not care and adapt. Right now there are as much who like it as those who don't. It is a split issue right now.

You're not forced to switch it on. If you want to run around like a headless chicken the choice is there.

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Originally Posted by myahele

You're not forced to switch it on. If you want to run around like a headless chicken the choice is there.

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most of us try to be good players.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I wouldn't go that far. This is something that happens in any MMO when a class undergoes a change. Some will welcome it, some will detest it and switch jobs, and some will not care and adapt.

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Depends on the change and whether there was prior discussion within the community about it. It would have been one thing if BRD players had asked for casting times on their abilities in exchange for a damage boost all through ARR. the discussion would turn out very differently and you'd have people giving suggestions on how to improve it while others would be content with what was given to them.

This was in essence a change no one asked for implemented in a way that is a copy-pasted mechanic with MCH with no cohesiveness to the gameplay BRD mains know and love.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

Absolutely. We can change stances to adapt to the fight. Can a BLM/SMN swap to lesser DPS for instant casts? No (unless they wanna spam Scathe lol), so we are still in fact more mobile than the other ranged DPS. Nothing has changed in being the most mobile DPS on the field.

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This completely. As I said earlier in this thread, as a black mage, I don't have any ability to switch to instant cast fire iv's. Bards and Machinists can adapt to movement heavy fights, a luxury black mage doesn't have.

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Originally Posted by Shamo_Lomenzo

My BRD is still at 50, so take this with a grain of salt, but when I read the update notes for WM and Gauss, I was under the impression that they were implemented for this very thing, especially now that they are instant with 25(?) second recast timers. Throw on WM/GB to burst with the attacks that require it, take it off until your skills come back off cooldown, repeat.

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Correction: 15 second recast timers, which is the same as empyreal arrow base. With some skill speed, empyreal arrow does drop time off CD. Also WM would be back up in time for refreshing DoTs with Iron Jaws. Rotation now is a bit difficult, but practice makes perfect.

I saw what SE was trying to do early on, think of bard as a mobile ballista ok that's exactly what it is, in strategy games the tanks roll around doing light damage to targets while on the move, for this example Starcraft. The tanks tickle they do more damage than little guys but less than you'd think. Then they switch to Siege mode, suddenly they bring out the big guns and damage takes a huge upswing. This is Bard's siege mode don't like it continue tickling mobs, wanna do something meaningful Siege mode is intended to make your feathers hurt.

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Originally Posted by Brundlefly

Correction: 15 second recast timers, which is the same as empyreal arrow base. With some skill speed, empyreal arrow does drop time off CD. Also WM would be back up in time for refreshing DoTs with Iron Jaws. Rotation now is a bit difficult, but practice makes perfect.

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Thanks, I grabbed that recast time from memory (which was apparently faulty).

But it just seems like a little bit of a stance dance now instead of having to choose between using it or not.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

well see this what a good bard looks like :) you even agreed

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DUMMIES have no mechanics/Aoes you need to dodge. Dodging = dps loss
Take a closer look at the ONLY two things he is using as he runs. Heavy shot and Straight Shot - because they are useable any time.
HOWEVER the new meat shots, Empyreal Arrow and Iron Jaws can only be cast when motionless.

Your arguement is invalid.
Nice vid though

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

he not a great bard

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Just to clear this up because some people seem to be misinformed. This is the original thread from where those videos came from.

I don't think the guy claimed to be the best, so don't bash him for that. Moreso, the point of me posting the video was because I thought it looked really cool to show and also to possibly give insight to those who do not know how Wanderer's Minuet looks like in action. Didn't think people would claim otherwise. That's the FFXIV forums for you, I guess.

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

DUMMIES have no mechanics/Aoes you need to dodge. Dodging = dps loss
Nice vid though

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Which effects every other class as well. The Archer/Bard was the abnormality. Prior to 52, Bard max Stationary DpS and max Mobile (i.e. Dodging) DpS is the same. Post 52, Bard max is Stationary DpS is theoretically higher the max Mobile DpS.

Consider Alexander Floor 4 (A4). Outside of being Quarantined, a properly positioned ranged DpS might never need to move during the fight. That is a substantial DpS increase for casters and theoretically an increase in DpS for BRD/MCH using WM/GB.

I wasn't expecting this thread to blow up, but now that it has I can see a lot of people share the same concern.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Good lord no. If you want that, go play WoW. Marksmen Hunters literally have exactly what you want and its bloody terrible there.

The cast time is fine.
Learn to play.

If you hate it so much then just turn off Minuet and keep doing crap 2.x style dps.

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The cast time is fine, this is not a "learn2play" issue please don't make remarks like that. This is a "personal preference" on the Job and quite frankly I never rolled a BRD with the mindset that I would be casting my core abilities, as mentioned in my OP If i wanted cast bars, I would have rolled a caster.

I can totally agree/understand MCH having this mechanic but I don't understand how Bard can go from YEARS of playing the same way to now suddenly being forced to be a bow-mage.

It isn't right, it feels COMPLETELY wrong. If I wanted to play BLM I WOULD HAVE PLAYED BLM.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Here's something I cooked up a couple of days ago for the other bard thread. Far from perfect and some may even hate it, but I like to think it tries to keep ARR bard gameplay intact while adding to it.

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Jumping on it now. Even if a work in progress, I'm sure it's in a helpful direction. Thanks, Duelle.

Edit: Interesting, but while I'm usually one to complain that a lot of the new abilities are really nothing more than traits that take up extra bar space, I do feel like I'd miss the EA and IJ abilities (or, abilities in their place) with WM covering so many level-ups. I like the options that it could give us, but at the same time, I'm afraid just as many people would be turned off by the weaving of Invocation as weaving movement in WM. Others may also be turned off by the CDs it places on our support (via I-song lockouts, unless that was supposed to read as the Invoke-effect on those songs can't be used again for 2 min, instead of the songs themselves?).

EditofEdit: I apologize if I'm seeming critical of your contribution in any way without contributing myself; it's just that my ideas are still a ways behind in development. I'm mostly focusing on the support aspects that I feel can or should have personal dps significance as well. I haven't gone so far as to remove Wanderer's Minuet, though (as horrible a name as that is for a turret stance, lol), since I honestly do like playing chicken with AoEs when in WM... (probably more than I should but with virtually no hits taken outside of lag spikes).

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I can totally agree/understand MCH having this mechanic but I don't understand how Bard can go from YEARS of playing the same way to now suddenly being forced to be a bow-mage.

It isn't right, it feels COMPLETELY wrong. If I wanted to play BLM I WOULD HAVE PLAYED BLM.

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I love you! Look guys, there's someone who understands our plight! No seriously, seeing this statement from a non-Bard player who have the ability to understand what some Bard players here are trying to tell everyone, is like a breathe of fresh Churning Mist air.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

I love you! Look guys, there's someone who understands our plight! No seriously, seeing this statement from a non-Bard player who have the ability to understand what some Bard players here are trying to tell everyone, is like a breathe of fresh Churning Mist air.

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Exactly my point, people have taken this playstyle preference and used my argument as a "learn2play" issue or a "min/max dps" issue... when that's FAR from the case. Fact is, Square gave us a class and then completely changed its playstyle... that's not fair.

I do not want to be a cut-rate caster I want to play as a BRD as I have done for the last 2 years.