Dear Yoshi & Team: About Current TT Tournament Model

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

we would then run the risk of alienating all but the most dedicated Triple Triad players.

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As opposed to now where you are alienating every player w/o the resources or desire to collude their way to the top??? You Devs really should have made the tourney NPC only until you figure some things out. Better to have someone "luck" their way to the top than conspire/buy their way there. If there was something seriously wrong with your billing system, there would at least be an effective stopgap asap rather than what's going on here...

.>The rare cards will be obtainable through the platinum packs instead of strictly through placing the highest.
THANK YOOOUUU. I can maybe actually GET the cards now QwQ I'm so glad! Thank you for this answer!

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Originally Posted by Anesjka

Make it so you have to challenge 15 different npc's or players.... You cannot play a tournament match against a specific opponent more than once....


solved.


あなたは15種類のNPCのか、選手に挑戦する持っているので、あなたが何度も特定の相手とトーナメントの試合を再生することはできません....それを作る....

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How does that solve the people who are getting 15 people to throw wins at them for max points?

For those that are saying the Lightning card is not any more powerful than other 5 stars are missing the point. It doesn't matter. The gameplay aspect of the card is different as no 2 TT cards are the same. This causes an imbalance by giving the winners more options for deck building, but luckily Yoshi mentioned a way this will be resolved.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Good news!

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Thank you so much Yoshi for finally shedding some more details on the future of TT tournaments. I think the idea of having the winning cards possible to achieve by earning them with points earned from playing in torunaments is genius. It solves multiple problems with 1 solution, plus they are still hard to get.

I just remember saving up for two gold packs, and i got the same card in both... I stopped playing then lol

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Issue: The effort required to build a competitive tournament deck

Acquiring Triple Triad cards is a demanding task, and this in turn discourages players from participating in tournaments─without at least thirty cards, it’s difficult to build effective decks. So to improve this situation, we will be looking into reducing the match difficulty for NPCs who reward cards, thus making it easier to reach that thirty-card threshold. (To be addressed in Patch 2.55)

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In all honesty the NPC's weren't that hard they were just right in their challenges. The hard part was the time it took for RNG to favor you for a freak'n card drop in most cases. 100+ matches before seeing a certain card drop and the same with grinding dungeons for 50+ times and still not seeing the card. It's a sure fire way to burn yourself out all together and quit.The NPC difficulty does not need to change. You can easily get the 30 deck w/out challenging a majority of the harder level NPC's. Adjust the % of drops or make a card trade in system to the NPC you challenge or make a cap after x # of wins they fork the card over or you select the card out of the lot they have. There's other routes you can go asides from throwing everything behind RNG.

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Issue:　Loss of motivation to continue playing when there is little chance of placing in the top ranks[INDENT]Participants often lose the desire to keep playing tournament matches once a place in the top ranks is no longer within reach. In response to this problem, we will be introducing a new feature wherein players are rewarded with a generous amount of MGP based on their final tournament score (regardless of rank). We intend to make other similar adjustments to provide greater incentives for participants to play through to the end of a tournament. In a similar fashion, players who accumulate a certain number of tournament points (again, regardless of rank) will be rewarded with a platinum Triad card─which has the possibility of yielding a rare card. By offering a means to earn rare cards other than placing in the higher ranks, we hope to encourage more players to take part in Triple Triad tournaments.

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It's a tournament... not everyone is going to win, and the people that enter it should realize that. There is more desire not to play tho when you realize everyone is cheating for top spot than playing in an actual strict ruled elimination tournament. Why bother even playing if people will just cheat to the top? Increasing MGP and giving out more items isn't going to solve that problem. It's almost catering even more to people buying wins so people can get x # of points to get more MGP + the rare booster card chance. Yes it's nice to get another way to obtain a rare card but wouldn't it be better instead of doing it like that to just add the card to a booster pack you can already buy from NPC? That would prevent people from trying to sell even more wins.

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Requests: Eliminating unfair collusion between players/Making it possible to challenge players without the need for discussion
As measures such as those previously described are implemented, we anticipate a significant drop in unsuitable tournament conduct (i.e. using multiple accounts to ensure victory, or throwing matches for payment). Naturally, we don’t believe that these unfair practices will be eliminated completely─unless the system is changed so that tournament rankings are strictly based on victories won through random matching, there will always be a way to cheat regardless of the measures we introduce. But supposing we did change the system to rely solely upon random matching, we would then run the risk of alienating all but the most dedicated Triple Triad players.

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Isn't that the point of a tournament? To bring your A game? To be the best of the best? You don't see other game card tournaments where someone goes there with a starter deck then throws a tantrum because they didn't win first place. Or go around asking people to throw matches or stand there and shout they are selling wins. No because of the tournament rules and regulations. Those entering the tournament should be people who are dedicated triad players, who want to improve their game, who want to challenge other good players. People who enter tournaments have confidence in their skills and put forth effort into making their decks/improving themselves. You can't be a people pleaser in a situation like this. The only way to improve on a tournament situation to where everyone is included and be more fair would be to make brackets/divisions. There's 6 NPC's in the triad area you can play against, make more use of them. Make 3 separate brackets or divisions if you want everyone to play then?
Division 1: Players who have less than 30 cards and are only able to use 1 star + 1 higher star card. Optional 5 matches versus Jonas, Optional 5 matches versus Guthwint, can only play a random person two times.
Division 2: Players who have 30-59 cards that can make 2 star decks + 1 higher star card. Optional 5 matches versus Aurifort, Optional 5 matches versus Rhutwyda, can only play a random person two times.
Division 3: Players who have 60+ cards that can make 3 star decks + 1 higher star card. Optional 5 matches versus King, Optional 5 matches versus Triad Master (who's deck isn't going to be a start but a 3 star deck), can only play a random person two times.

GMs can monitor gameplay can't they? Can assign one to watch if a certain person is standing in a spot throwing matches. Anyone selling or buying wins is automatically disqualified from the tournament.

How does relying solely on random matching alienate anybody? If people are serious about getting a top spot, they will have at least 60 cards. It doesn't take that long to get that many—maybe two weeks if you take your time. Don't lamely excuse yourself for not following the one obvious solution and instituting a Duty Finder–style system. Just tell us you don't have time right now. As it is, you guys just seem confused.

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Originally Posted by Ultimasamune

Don't lamely excuse yourself for not following the one obvious solution and instituting a Duty Finder–style system. Just tell us you don't have time right now.

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Honestly, that is basically what he said. "The second goal─implementing more strictly run tournaments─will require more time to achieve. I understand that many players are in favor of being able to use the Duty Finder to set up Triple Triad matches. [...] As you can imagine, this all takes time to test and perfect." The only thing about not alienating all but the most dedicated players was that they didn't feel it should rely solely on random matching. I don't think that was being used as an excuse to not do a matching system.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Duty Finder does not support one-on-one matching

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You do not need to do one-on-one in duty finder if you setup a mini bracket tournament system you can have like 64 players join duty finder from several servers then randomly pair each player with another in small blocked off rooms which unlock once the match is over the player who wins can advance to the next room to face the next player which continues until everyone is knocked out leaving only 1 player who wins that mini tournament, points are scored depending on which place you finished

Example: 64 player mini tournament:

1st 20pts (won 6 lost 0)
2nd 15pts (won 5 lost 1)
3rd-4th 10pts (won 4 lost 1)
5th-8th 7pts (won 3 lost 1)
9th-16th 5pts (won 2 lost 1)
17th-32rd 3pt (won 1 lost 1)
33rd-64th 1pt (won 0 lost 1)

You play in several of these during the week to accumulate your overall score on the leaderboard this avoids the one-on-one duty finder problem.

http://oi59.tinypic.com/3026sk1.jpg

Pretty simple design I'm sure the development team can make this where 64 players can enter from duty finder from all the servers from each datacenter, if they can do it for Frontlines PvP I'm sure it will work for Triple Triad Tournaments

You guys are missing one part though. Duty Finders aren't exactly within the server, so any data inside the duty finder will be lost when going back to your respective servers. (At least that what I imagine is holding them back)

Well, I was certainly right about this tournaments rule. Its completely impossible to get anywhere near the cheaters this time around.
Before I decided ''well to hell with that'' I had myself a lovely match of a 3x 1* 2x 2* deck against a deck composed of a 4*, 2x 3*, 2x 2* and a single 1* The ironic part is that my opponent was bad enough that I managed to draw against him.
So I went to go at Elmer, well suffice it to say that his deck is a ways more difficult then Landanels or Rowenas if he has the random rule.


Even without all the cheating going on, just who exactly at SE decided to use Random as a tournament rule?
Did you forget the part where if it's not fun you are not doing it right?

Yeah, not too happy about the random rule here either. NPCs actually totally ignore the rule from what I've seen (posted about it in the bug section). I don't mean they have a small card pool - I mean they literally ignore it. Order + Random = same cards every time in the same order. So, this basically forces us to play vs people, and given how totally random the decks are, you can just get so unlucky you have zero chance to win.

I'm feeling forced into win trading here just for the wins toward Shantotto. I don't care about winning the tourney, I just want some wins toward the achievement. Last time, I was able to get a bunch from Elmer and was totally okay with it (my ending score was 1337, which was also awesome). Maybe I'll have a friend make an alt to lose against me twenty times...

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Even without all the cheating going on, just who exactly at SE decided to use Random as a tournament rule?
Did you forget the part where if it's not fun you are not doing it right?

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basically its a lot of fun to read comments like yours

Two Solution I can see right now.

1) Once a month have a GM/Dev run Tourney bracket on the weekend that is true PvP bracket.

2) Weekly TT, player vs player doesn't count toward points (yea win trading has ruined it for everyone), add special NPCs around the world that count toward points, and you can only challenge them once. So basically a 20 match tourney, 20 NPCs around the world appear to challenge for points. Also to note the NPC have a full set of card and have to use the same rules as us meaning stack their deck full of 4 and 5 star cards.

Also a quality of life change would the ability to flag yourself for LFG Triple Triad so other player know that person is looking for a match.

Edit: Just another idea. Have a special GATE every hour where player have 5 minute to register. The computer sets it up on bracket, and winner gets points.

Actually the best way to avoid cheating is to lower the rewards at the top. If you don't get that much more for winning, it becomes a waste of money/afford to do it.

High rewards also mean, that you need absolutely strict rules and control over a match. Just make it more of a fun match, still with good rewards, but not 140k + ultra rare card, instead 25k + 2 platin packs and the places below it a bit lesser MGP and 1 platin pack, something like that.

Perhaps a diminishing return in points for playing the same person multiple times. If you beat a player and get 127 points from them, beating them a second time will net you 90% of that, so 114 points. Returns eventually working their way down to a 50% floor.

Upside:
Anyone looking to cheat their way to the top will need to find 15-20 different players willing to give them a win.
Downside:
People aren't going to be keen on playing anyone for a second match if they won a first time. But thankfully you can still play non-tournament matches with people during the tournament week, so this likely won't be too big of an issue.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Perhaps a diminishing return in points for playing the same person multiple times. If you beat a player and get 127 points from them, beating them a second time will net you 90% of that, so 114 points. Returns eventually working their way down to a 50% floor.

Upside:
Anyone looking to cheat their way to the top will need to find 15-20 different players willing to give them a win.
Downside:
People aren't going to be keen on playing anyone for a second match if they won a first time. But thankfully you can still play non-tournament matches with people during the tournament week, so this likely won't be too big of an issue.

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EEHHHHHH. This is exactly the current system.

matches need to be a best two of out three at the very least also. But yes decreasing the top end reward is best way to discourage. stop with the crazy amount of mgp and a special rare card. If the top get 20k -18-10k with two plat packs and then everyone above x which should be a pretty low number gets 1 plat pack. keeping super rare rewards in a unregulated torunament = it will be abused. Pretty dumb. Strict medium rewards relaxed low rewards having such high rewards is kind of big over sight.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Anyone looking to cheat their way to the top will need to find 15-20 different players willing to give them a win.

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Those "top class cheater" easily got their 15-20 player, mainly in their own guild. All those 15-20 play 14 or 19 games, then lose the last one against the main cheater. Only way to earn that many points.

Very simple solution...

1. Make each win give the same points no matter who play against.

2. Change from top 3 spots earning card into earn x amount of points or x amount of wins per tournament to get guaranteed card and x amount to get platinum pack. They are adding such a system partially with this earn a score to earn platinum pack and they could extend that so have to earn x amount of wins or x amount of score to guarantee the card too. The amount needed can be adjusted as time goes on and SE gains data pertaining to how high average scores and such are.

3 (optional). Make match ups random which will reduce the amount of people able to cheat. I think this is kind of important in general even if just doing 1 and 2 would remove the biggest problem with this tournament which is cheaters are stopping legitimate players from guaranteed winning the card. If they never even did number 3 in this list, 1 and 2 would mean legitimate players would win if they are good enough to beat the really high score/wins SE puts in place instead of being excluded from it by cheaters.

Currently the system is an exclusionary system but while that in itself is not bad for tournaments since not everyone should get the top prize without effort but the way they have done it is bad. It should be exclusionary not based on ranks with people who cheat their way to the top being the method of that exclusion, pushing legitimate players out of the top ranks no matter how good at TT the others may be (which is how current system works)...instead it should be exclusion from the top prize based on who is good enough to get a high enough score/amount of wins. SE set that score and amount of wins like they plan to do with the platinum card pack. Even if they just did 1 and 2 from above it would be a vastly better system than currently have.

I would also increase the amount of matches per tournament too personally as 15/20 matches in a week/two weeks is too low so I would make it around 30 matches per tournament and would make it two tournaments a week. If SE does 1 and 2 from my list, everyone would be happy while not leading to any impact on SE's duty finder excuse...doing 3 as well would just make people who play legitimately happier because cheaters would be restricted/limited in their cheating but would impose on/impact SE's duty finder excuse.


TL/DR Version

The results of SE's current plans...

Cheaters guaranteed the card from top 3 ranks.
Best and good legitimate players will only have chance at winning the card from the lottery style (RNG) platinum pack.

If SE does what I suggested above in both (1) and (2)...

Cheaters will still be guaranteed the card.
Best legitimate players guaranteed card.
Good legitimate players will only have chance at winning the card from the lottery style (RNG) platinum pack.

If SE does all three of my suggestions...

Cheaters will find it vastly harder to obtain the card.
Best legitimate players guaranteed card.
Good legitimate players will only have chance at winning the card from the lottery style (RNG) platinum pack.

I'm only here because I mis-clicked this thread in my toolbar, trying to delete it, but accidentally clicked it.

To my surprise, there is still the exact same issue with this tournament. I'm only here to say one thing:

Triple Triad was the main reason I came back into the game, one month early actually, to acclimatize myself to the new content so I would be ready to keep playing and start collecting when the Gold Saucer was released. I wanted to say that I did NOT continue my subscription this month because of how the tournament was botched. I had a feeling Square was going to continue to allow the game, tournament structure, and prizing to be poisoned after handing top cards to cheaters.

I am, not glad to see, that I was 100% correct. My apologies to those who kept with it, and to Square, I am by far not the only customer you have lost, and will lose, due to this issue. Congrats...?

Any change will be done over the course of months, because it is far from a priority issue for them.
Anyway, this is just like how hardcore raiders parse and math it up for the best results, but this time its for a mini game thats much less complicated than end game raiding mechanics and dps checks~

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Originally Posted by Curatio_Magus

I am, not glad to see, that I was 100% correct. My apologies to those who kept with it, and to Square, I am by far not the only customer you have lost, and will lose, due to this issue. Congrats...?

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maybe you should read the official statemants before ranting without a (good) reason

oh well, cu back soon

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

maybe you should read the official statemants before ranting without a (good) reason

oh well, cu back soon

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(S)he still has very good reason to rant about this. Their official reply is more insulting than their initial mega-flub of the tourney. "We know ppl are rigging the tourney like crazy, but we are keeping the structure the same for a month b/c we don't want to disappoint those who are hoping to win a card by rigging the game like crazy." Like really? Reeeeeeally???

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Currently on Gilgamesh server:
Thats over 140 pts per win, I've only gotten 134 pts at most..
How do I get that many points per win?

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A small group of lvl 15 alts (controlled by a smaller group of players in collusion with the aim of topping the charts) are used to prop up the latter's scores in the tournament by exchanging wins amongst themselves and increasing each alts' value.

While it is possible to topple some 70+ card giant with the 5 starters, the chances of it happening are unlikely compared to someone who has had a bit more triple triad experience and obtained 25 or so cards.

Do not exclude ALL 1 star deck holders, but have criteria that weights players depending on how many cards they own. Those below a threshold should be worth far less.

This should prove to be a hurdle for "virgin" win-farms, and places severe restrictions on lvl 15 alts, given that their ease and range of travel would not be as great as a formal player's.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

"/shout Anyone with enough points for their Platinium pack with a few games left? I need a few wins to get mine."
This will be a thing.

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Yup, this is why tournament pvp battles should just be removed, then possibly add more tournament NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Nekohakase

A small group of lvl 15 alts (controlled by a smaller group of players in collusion with the aim of topping the charts) are used to prop up the latter's scores in the tournament by exchanging wins amongst themselves and increasing each alts' value.

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Like this for example. Someone can make level 15 alts, rank them up through NPC matches and then sell remaining wins for gil. At this stage the entire tournament system is so broken it is practically a waste of time trying. SE are so clueless about how broken and open to abuse their own system is that it rubs salt in the wound of anyone who wants to compete fairly.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...Untitled_1.jpg

I've made 4647 pts myselft. They changed a few things, there's a simple trick to it. Took me a few wins to figure it out then I got the most out of it minus the tests. 4800 is possible I think. But I don't think any more than that is possible right now without extreme preparation

Why does the NPC still say the top 3 get the Firion card?

edit: So, wait, top 3 spots STILL automatically get the card and only 4th-11th spots get the platinum card? Everyone else gets jack squat?

Awesome. Nothing was fixed. Guess I'll start buying my wins or farming friends if I want to get the last few cards I need.

Because Top 3 still gets a card

They were never taking the reward away. Just now people who score well enough in points will get a platinum pack that has 1 of 8 cards in it, which I assume 4 of them will be tournament cards that you could of gotten instead straight as a top 3 prize

I just didn't expect that "by score well enough" they meant "not win trade as well as the guys in the top 3 spots, just the top 4-11".

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Originally Posted by Chek

Why does the NPC still say the top 3 get the Firion card?

edit: So, wait, top 3 spots STILL automatically get the card and only 4th-11th spots get the platinum card? Everyone else gets jack squat?

Awesome. Nothing was fixed. Guess I'll start buying my wins or farming friends if I want to get the last few cards I need.

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correct, except everyone above certain point treshold also gets a plat. pack as well as mgp bonus. talking to the tournie dude and asking about prices to confirm this.

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Originally Posted by zandervont

correct, except everyone above certain point treshold also gets a plat. pack as well as mgp bonus. talking to the tournie dude and asking about prices to confirm this.

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Actually, if you talk to the tournament NPC about prizes, she very specifically says that only 4th-11th get a platinum pack. 12-20th receive 10k MGP, and those not in the top 20 get nothing but the base 1k consolation prize.

So yeah, a waste of time for most people still.

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Originally Posted by Chek

I just didn't expect that "by score well enough" they meant "not win trade as well as the guys in the top 3 spots, just the top 4-11".

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We don't know what score is required for pack but there does seem to be conflict in the descriptions, the NPC says 4-10 will receive the pack but then says 11+ will not followed by saying a score high enough will get pack...so it could mean if score high enough to be in ranks 4-10 only or could be that the 11+ thing is misinformation/wrong.

Either way SE have not fixed the tournament at all. Cheaters guaranteed a card for top 3 ranks, cheaters guaranteed pack from 4-10 but everyone else (potentially) screwed depending on what the correct information is despite the NPC giving conflicting information. Without changing from ranking system to score based system handled by the game not the players, the tournament will continue to be broken and people will continue to be cheated out of what they should of earned from playing fairly.

The solution to the tournament problem...random matching and change from rank system to a score based system, prizes given on scores not ranks. With ranks cheaters can push legitimate players out of the top ranks and out of any chance to gain the cards or packs. With a score system anyone who is good enough cannot be cheated out of what they earned because it is not determined by cheating players, instead would be determined by the score system. For example a guaranteed card could be say 4700+ score but platinum pack could be 4000-4700 score. No one can be cheated out of what they earned using that system.

The NPC says NOWHERE in any of her dialogue that you'll receive a pack unless you're in the top 4-11. Where are you seeing that she says it after that?

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Originally Posted by Chek

The NPC says NOWHERE in any of her dialogue that you'll receive a pack unless you're in the top 4-11. Where are you seeing that she says it after that?

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Entrants who place from fourth to tenth in the rankings will be awarded a platinum triad card.

Those who rank eleventh to twentieth will not receive a card.

Those who fail to place in top twenty will receive a participation gift of 1000MGP. (No mention of card)

Entrants who earn enough points will also be awarded a bonus platinum triad card. (It's last thing she says)

These things conflict with each other, if from 4-10 does not receive a card then the same would apply to 11+. I am convinced SE has not got a clue what it's doing with TT right now. I hope they do fix it because it's ruining one of the things I most looked forward to in the game since first hard about it but right now I am losing any desire to keep playing TT tournaments when I know because of the ranking system...players like myself and others are being cheated out of the chance to win restricted cards fairly.

Lol, wtf, she doesn't say that when I talk to her?

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Originally Posted by Chek

Lol, wtf, she doesn't say that when I talk to her?

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...Untitled_3.jpg

The problem is that information from her contradicts and conflicts with information she gives you prior to it.

It doesn't really contradict.

R1-3 Card + MGP
R4-10 Platinum Pack + MGP
R11+ MGP

Those are the prizes. Now if you make a certain TT point amount w/e it is You'll get a bonus of a Plat Pack.

So their could be a week were everyone on the board gets their base prize and an additional platinum pack. Their could be a week were half the board doesn't hit the number for the pack. Now realistically I don't think the TT point total for the pack will ever be at a number where the whole board+ ppl not on board wont get a pack