Isn`t just vanity. Is 2 diferent experiences and thats why is bad.

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Originally Posted by Serdapi

Anything that does not advance you in Story or iLvl is vanity content. Vanity content is not the over all goal of a game, yes it is in the game and you can put it as a goal for yourself but the game was not designed that way. The game has a story and raids that progress your character in that story, this is the main goal of the game. If you want a game that is based around Vanity content go play the Sims.If you want to do things outside the scope of the main goal and the developers give you the option to do so but it comes with a price its fine because it does not involve further or hinder people from the main goal of the game. You choose to participate in this vanity content, in doing so you have the great option of making it better by paying more, you also have the option of not paying at all. You should be happy there is even a choice of not paying, because this content is not even close to the purpose of the game. Everyone complaining needs to get over themself, you are part of the problem. Please do not complain about vanity content in a story based, progressional game. As I said if you want to play a vanity game the Sims Online or Second Life are still around.

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Ilvls are vanity too. Actually i see far more braging about iLvl than i see about housing or glamouring.

Advancing on story grants you titles which are also vanity.The game is made up of subsystems, everyone of them as important as the other, the moment you take any of those and put them behind a paywall just because you think, from the subsystem you participate the most, that one is optional, it doesnt make it so. A thousand players would tell you that housing is far more important than high end raiding. Those players are not optional, the content they enjoy is not optional. Everything in this game is either a must or optional. You can`t have a few of each all over the place.

BTW, playing the game is also optional, and can even be considered vanity for some, specially high end raiders.

And is lovely your attitude, "you don`t do my content, so your content is optional and please leave to other games", you gonna go far kid.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

That is legitimate. Not everyone plays this game for raids and high end gear. Some do them for several things being hyped over the past years as Housing and Marriage. Social gamers and RPers are also gamers, customers and their way of playing and the content they enjoy is not "optional".

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Then just simply make it to get all the mounts and minions that are available in the game without cash shopping. Would the same apply for the people that can't get the mount that 1.0 players got when they switched over to 2.0?

The reason people complain about cash shop stuff (even if it's content they don't care about) is because it existing, out of reach of what they already paid for, creates an amount of distrust with the decision they made to subscribe to the game.


Before, without a cash shop, you knew what you were getting when you paid your subscription -- you were getting everything. If it was put into the game, it was included in your subscription, all you have to do is play and find it. It adds a little bit of excitement, it lengthens the distance to the finish line of the game

Now, WITH a cash shop, you know that when you pay your subscription, there's some little, tiny, illegible fine print that says, "Well, you paid, and you'll get most of the stuff we put in the game, except for this stuff over here, which isn't included". It may be something you never cared about, but it's something you aren't getting. It's not something you probably wont find...it's something you can't find.


Whats worse, the fact that it's in the cash shop immediately destroys any amount of value it would have had otherwise. It wasn't behind a string of quests, or a trial, or a random drop in a dungeon, it was simply behind a pay wall. Cash shops just take content that would be made to otherwise enhance a game, destroys it, and then places it out of reach. Even when Housing was revealed, and it had a ridiculous price...I didn't even care. I'm going to stay subscribed anyway, EVENTUALLY i'm going to be able to afford it, because there's no cash shop to make me think otherwise.



FFXIV is a very light offender of this, but like i said, it creates distrust. No longer am I able to be 100% excited about EVERYTHING Square Enix shows in a screenshot. Now, there's some little twinge in the back of every reveal that has to wonder whether or not it's vanity cash shop or not. Is it simply really tough to get? Or is it only overly tough because they plan to incentivize the cash shop? It literally diminishes the entire feeling of the game.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Then just simply make it to get all the mounts and minions that are available in the game without cash shopping. Would the same apply for the people that can't get the mount that 1.0 players got when they switched over to 2.0?

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heh, they're justifying their rant on the fact that NOW they can never get ALL the mounts/minions, when in fact they COULDN'T if they weren't 1.0 players.

But you know, terrible logic is terrible, and they feel more cheated by extra fluff obtainable by cash than by unobtainable fluff by any existing means.

The more I read these threads, the more I laugh at how pointless some arguments are.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...30_popcorn.jpg

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

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No iLvl is not vanity because you are required to have a certain level to even complete actual content and story in the game.

I'm not saying people can't do the vanity content, I'm saying that it is not the purpose of the game. The game has a clear purpose of telling a story in a progressional way.

Vanity content does not stop or continue any of the games actual purpose, therefore it can be made available to the players for purchase and does not hinder the continuation of the actual purpose of the game, story and boss battles that tell the story.

I'm not telling you to play a different game unless you are playing this game expecting that Vanity content is goal and purpose of this game. If you think it is the goal of the dev team and design team then you are delusional and need to be playing an actual vanity game like the Sims. "Kid" lol

Please don't lump everyone into one category on social or role players into your vague analogy, not everyone in those category would agree with this assessment people are different on how they play a game true. If it just housing/marriage/vanity that's very narrow view on how to play a game while ignoring the rest of the 99.9% of the actual game people are not going to get married over and over again and just stay indoors in their house every time they log in that's just pure hyperbole bs.

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Originally Posted by Serdapi

I'm not saying people can't do the vanity content, I'm saying that it is not the purpose of the game. The game has a clear purpose of telling a story in a progressional way.

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No, enjoyment is the purpose of the game. Vanity adds enjoyment, therefore it's part of the game, and clearly a very big part, hence the point of this topic.

To assume that just because you can complete the game without using it, that it's irrelevant, is extremely faulty logic. What people like to call "vanity" has become such a massive part of gaming in general (graphics, character creators, ect) that i find it silly when people justify cash shops because it has no effect on your stats.


If you wore the same outfit from ilvl 1-120, would you not care? If you didn't have the option to equip whatever you wanted, would you not care? If you didn't have the option to acquire and use different mounts, despite the fact they are all LITERALLY the same thing, would you care? Of course you would, everyone would. People need to stop pretending like "VANITY" gives you an excuse to pretend like it's expendable. The option to choose different paths is at the core of endgame gameplay.


Just because they take one or two [awesome] looking, functionally useless mounts out of the game and throw it in the cash shop doesn't mean it's useless content. It CLEARLY has a purpose, or they wouldn't be sticking it behind a goddamn pay wall.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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Then how did the game ever have any value? There were extras packed in with the CE on day one, more stuff was awarded for buying the OSTs or attending the fanfest, and we all knew that an expansion was on it's way... how is this any different? Would you have preferred it if SE had put the cash shop stuff in a "game of the year edition" and included an upgrade on the mogstation instead?

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Originally Posted by Jacost

Then how did the game ever have any value? There were extras packed in with the CE on day one, more stuff was awarded for buying the OSTs or attending the fanfest, and we all knew that an expansion was on it's way... how is this any different? Would you have preferred it if SE had put the cash shop stuff in a "game of the year edition" and included an upgrade on the mogstation instead?

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It's very different, lets not throw every situation into a black and white analogy. The concept of a cash shop is not at all synonymous with CE/OST/Limited Edition release and promotional events. To answer your question, yes, yes, YES i would have preferred they do that, or maybe in a veteran reward with my subscription. Because then it would have been established from the moment i bought the game that the content wasn't for me.

But being teased in updates with in-game content i have to pay to use and then pay to acquire? Sorry, that's a completely different scenario. You don't ever see people complaining about expansions or day-1 bonuses or attendance awards for this very reason.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Why do you assume that the free wedding isn't the full experience? Why can't the paid wedding be an extra experience instead of being labelled as full experience?

Perhaps SE originally planned for the free wedding to be the full experience, but since there are people willing to pay for more fluff. They added in an extra experience for the paid wedding.

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Well if you didn't notice there is a "might" in there, as I know nothing is set in stone yet.

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Originally Posted by Genesis-xyx

Well if you didn't notice there is a "might" in there, as I know nothing is set in stone yet.

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However, according to your post, your might was referring to -- you might have to pay to receive the full experience.

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Originally Posted by Genesis-xyx

...and now to find out that I might have to pay to get the full experience... snip-

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What I am stating is people assuming the paid plan is the full experience, when the paid plan can very well be an extra experience while the standard plan is the full experience.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

No, enjoyment is the purpose of the game.

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Enjoyment is the effect of the game. Not the purpose.

Story, gear, vanity content, raids, quests the items cause enjoyment.

By design the game's purpose is telling a story in a progressional way. As I said if you can't see that you are delusional.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Just because they take one or two [awesome] looking, functionally useless mounts out of the game and throw it in the cash shop doesn't mean it's useless content. It CLEARLY has a purpose, or they wouldn't be sticking it behind a goddamn pay wall.

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Yeah, their purpose is to earn extra money.

The game is mostly advertised by its PvE. The game never hints you to collect all the minions/mounts and it doesn't give you a reward or anything about it. You're being rewarded with minions by clearing the content. It's optional content, not useless. As I said it before and some others have said already, it's your personal goal. Gotta be a bit objective with that, I understand you people love minions and would give your life to have them all, but they're not the core of this game. Based on your logic, guys, like... putting the things you like behind a paywall... why don't you rage at SE when they included two minions in their OSTs, a couple of them for attending the Fan Fest or... getting the CE/pre-buying the game, which adds nothing to the game but minions and mounts? They wanted to earn extra money, so they thought what items would be the best to add to their cash-shop. IN THEIR VISION, (You know, the vision of the people who created the game... like the owners of it? The same guys who planned on all this and set its objectives?) minions/mounts are not something that would neither break the game's balance or give an unfair advantage over other players.

So, get over it. They're not going to remove the cash shop, these minions will still be there and if you want them, you pretty much gotta buy them. We know nothing about the marriage's costs and stuff so that wouldn't be a nice conversation topic to have right now until the moment comes.

Just curious if one of the options was with gil would people be ok with that? even if it was pricey like housing?
I have a feeling like i have posted before that the two "paid" options are one with gil and one with irl money.
Which makes me believe that the one that cost gil will be expensive.

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Originally Posted by Serdapi

Enjoyment is the effect of the game. Not the purpose.

Story, gear, vanity content, raids, quests the items cause enjoyment.

By design the game's purpose is telling a story in a progressional way. As I said if you can't see that you are delusional.

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No, if that is what you truly believe than you are delusional.

The sole purpose of this game is to make SE money.
How they go about doing that is by making sure people will enjoy it enough to buy and play it. So in effect enjoyment is the sole factor in the purpose of the game. All of the things you listed play an important role in whether the game is enjoyable or not. If the game wasn't enjoyable people wouldn't pay for it, SE wouldn't make money and the game wouldn't be up and running.

All SE is doing now is seeing how much more money they can make, and how far they can push it with the cash shop before they start losing money.
When your sub doesn't buy you what you find enjoyable and you don't have extra money to spend on the "extras" that would make it enjoyable for you all you are left with is unsubing. SE wont care until the amount of money they lose from subs is more than they make from the cash shop purchases.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

It's very different, lets not throw every situation into a black and white analogy. The concept of a cash shop is not at all synonymous with CE/OST/Limited Edition release and promotional events. To answer your question, yes, yes, YES i would have preferred they do that, or maybe in a veteran reward with my subscription. Because then it would have been established from the moment i bought the game that the content wasn't for me.

But being teased in updates with in-game content i have to pay to use and then pay to acquire? Sorry, that's a completely different scenario. You don't ever see people complaining about expansions or day-1 bonuses or attendance awards for this very reason.

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You were able to upgrade your game to CE status at the mogstation anyway, and some hypothetical GOTY extras would probably also have been available as an upgrade in the same way. You still pay more money and get mounts & minions that you can't get another way, and you even do it on the same Mogstation, so I fail to see the difference. There was already stuff behind a paywall is my point; the bait-and-switch was indeed dickish of SE, but that's not the point of the thread. Someone could probably start a different thread over the transparency issue, and I would support that argument.

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Originally Posted by Kaeda_Valentyne

No, if that is what you truly believe than you are delusional.

The sole purpose of this game is to make SE money.

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I am talking from a design and dev aspect. You are talking from a business aspect. We are both right.

Content and Vanity Content come from the design and dev part. Making it a cash option comes from the business part.

The reason Vanity content can be made a cash option because it doesn't break the game and make it Pay 2 win. This is why you don't see actual content of Story or gear in the cash shop. The dev and design teams main structure of the game is around a story and gear progression. Add-ons like Weddings and Housing is vanity content that does not impact the core development of the game. Business people decided that Housing wasn't worth putting in the cash shop but an extra bonus things for weddings were.

You have the option not to purchase this extra which is up to the player. If no-one buys it, it will not hurt SE one bit because the content is already designed and everyone that does buy is just a plus. Win win for SE. If people unsub because they can't get extra items in the game where there is a free option then that's the players choice but I feel the will have a better time playing a different game because there expectations were completely wrong. The items in the cash shop is no different that skins in LoL.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

You were able to upgrade your game to CE status at the mogstation anyway, and some hypothetical GOTY extras would probably also have been available as an upgrade in the same way. You still pay more money and get mounts & minions that you can't get another way, and you even do it on the same Mogstation, so I fail to see the difference. There was already stuff behind a paywall is my point; the bait-and-switch was indeed dickish of SE, but that's not the point of the thread. Someone could probably start a different thread over the transparency issue, and I would support that argument.

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You forgot the OST minions too and legacy peeps pretty much bought their chocobos and snazzy perks.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

Extra retainers put a greater load on the server since it now has to store more data, so it makes sense to charge players for them. Of course allowing alts to be more easily used as "mules" would be the better option, but that's a different discussion.

Your entire argument about the expansion boiled down to "it's actually worth the price". You don't even know what the price is yet, so how can you judge that? For that matter, we don't know what the cost is for the gold wedding. Would you say that it's "actually worth the price" if it was $1? We don't even have total confirmation on what is in the paid plan. Like I said, I disagree with that bait-and-switch that SE pulled, but I suspect that the higher-ups gave Yoshi an order on the matter sometime in the last month or so. Yoshi has been shown to genuinely care about the game, but he doesn't run the company. What I'd like to see from SE is more transparency, rather than pointlessly bashing a business for wanting to make money.

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Extra Retainers put as much load on storage on a server as alts and new characters do, seeing how there are accounts that can have a max of 40 players across all servers both with 2 free retainers and a full character's data takes far more space than 2 additional retainers, the servers already account for this extra data in the database and more. System wise only one retainer can be fully accessed at a time, so even the extra processing load is equal for everyone, venture completion messages are handled client side and item searches are optimized enough so that those two extra retainers being searched also doesn't cause bigger stress.

My entire argument is yes, if the content to price ratio is good, go ahead. Since ARR's price is $30 it's safe to deduce the expansion will be priced accordingly, either at that exact price, possible lower or maybe even higher. Even if it's twice ARR's price at $60 it's arguably ok but not really, if only because "that's the price of a WoW expansion so it's ok when others do it". More than that? Yeah no thanks. The same can be done to weddings, simply adding what the Draught Chocobo costs for one/two players to obtain + a minion + costume + extra fees. Though yes, we still don't have concrete prices so it is all well founded speculation right now. Though I'd honestly be surprised if it was less than $10 for just the second tier wedding, or even costed gil like some people are hopefully thinking. Now yeah, no one can really decide what's actually worth spending money for anyone else, so if paying $25 for a mount is worth it for a loyal fan because they're showing support to their favorite company and franchise, go ahead too, no qualms about it.

Funny you mention transparency because that's exactly what I said the first time seasonal items were introduced on it. Had the cash shop plans been announced well in advance, even as far back as 2.0's announcement, most people would have been more accepting of it. Yet it's always 2 weeks or just a week before a patch and always announced out of nowhere, especially after teasing items and features for a whole year. It's that exact same change of plans at the last minute that makes people weary on where the game is heading. No one here is against a company making money or else they wouldn't be subscribing and wouldn't have subscribed since 1.0 in the first place. People do indeed want more transparency, it's where this issue comes from in the first place. Yoshida is the producer so yes, it does fall on him even if his hands are tied and he's forced not to say anything or hold back on announcing cash shop plans as much as he can. He was much more open during 1.0 so all this just makes him look more disingenuous now, regardless if he wants it to be like that or not.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Jacost gets it. It is functionally the same thing. Just because it comes on a dvd in a box doesn't matter. You are buying the content on the dvd. And most games are digital dl anyway now. If you want an example of a cheap little story paid add on I'll point to not one but 3 from SE in their last mmo. Ffxi had 3 tiny add ons that had a side storylines, a few story battles, and a special piece of combat gear at the end (very good, generally bis gear at at the time).

Your argument basically boiled down to expand being larger scale so it's ok. That's weak, and there are examples by this very company doing smaller scale tack ons. Those 3 story pack were 10 bucks each at release for a story you do in an afternoon while an expansion was 20 bucks and expanded the world for years. Either your ok buying content beyond your sub or you arent. The scale and being worth the money are just cop outs by letting you decide on a case by case basis if you are OK with it. If that is the case then I can just say a minion for 3$, or a fancy wedding for 30 is 'worth it' and now I'm no more right than you. You can't be against buying content on principle then turn around and say expansions, add ons, CEs, and digital give aways at paid live events are ok. If you pick a side you gotta stay there, not jump ship just because it's a good deal.

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Your argument basically boils down to "it's okay when my favorite company does it regardless of how it does it" which is fine but it's also the weakest argument anyone can present. Lots of people had and still have qualms about Abyssea and the addons, even then story content will always outweigh vanity according to the common definition of progression. No one here is against buying content at all, in any way shape and form, especially since the main pro cash shop argument is "no one's cutting content yet, you can still get the same content for free you just don't get the extra vanity". The principle is about a company telling people well in advanced about their monetization plans. So if they're going to monetize Golden Saucer, Airships, etc. they might as well announce it clearly in advance especially since the Japan Fanfest is coming, instead of always being vague about new content and then announcing the cash shop side of it at the last second.

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Originally Posted by Serdapi

Enjoyment is the effect of the game. Not the purpose.

Story, gear, vanity content, raids, quests the items cause enjoyment.

By design the game's purpose is telling a story in a progressional way. As I said if you can't see that you are delusional.

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.....what?

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Originally Posted by Jacost

You were able to upgrade your game to CE status at the mogstation anyway, and some hypothetical GOTY extras would probably also have been available as an upgrade in the same way. You still pay more money and get mounts & minions that you can't get another way, and you even do it on the same Mogstation, so I fail to see the difference. There was already stuff behind a paywall is my point; the bait-and-switch was indeed dickish of SE, but that's not the point of the thread. Someone could probably start a different thread over the transparency issue, and I would support that argument.

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Nobody bought the CE for the in-game items, they bought it for that AND tons of other awesome tangible loot they got with the package. Getting CE without all that stuff is mostly pointless, but allowing us to get it anyway isn't an issue, because it has its purpose. Anything else though loses that armor, because it's surpassed the point of being there for promotional reasons, and is now simply a cash grab.


It's like buying a ticket at six flags, valid of course for every ride. You can buy your little thing that lets you skip lines, but that's cool because it has a practical reason for existing and you dont NEED it to get on the ride. Food is overpriced yeah, but whatever. I can still ride.

But then you come up to this super special side ride, that's not as cool as the super DUPER special awesome ride, but you still wanna ride it. NOPE, wasn't included in your ticket, but you can buy this $4 ticket to get on this one....wait, what the fuck, but that's not fair, what was the first goddamn ticket for then?!

That's cash shop. The super special side ride ticket isn't as useful as that other stuff, and it doesn't even cost much, you can still ride the super duper special awesome rides, but, what the fuck man, i already paid. Douche move, six flags.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Well god damn, talk about stretching semantics. Except your whole argument falls apart when you realize that, wait a second, if it's not ultimately enjoyable, then it's a shitty game, and they don't want a shitty game, because crap, now we have to remake it again...?

Which makes enjoyment both the effect, feeling and overarching purpose of the game. If it's not fun people aren't going to play it.

See, i can make stupid arguments too

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Sorry you aren't good at arguments. Enjoyment and "Shitty games" are feelings/opinions that's why its not a purpose. Also, people play games that aren't fun all the time, especially when friends and social pressures are involved in MMO games.

I'm done with you kid, go back to making bad arguments and false claims about the content of this games and others.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Well god damn, talk about stretching semantics...

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Serdapi is making a fine and reasonable debate. If I write a novel, it is to tell a story. If people enjoy it, that is up to if they liked or disliked the story I provided. Enjoyment is a subjective term and in any "argument" could be made for any artistic endeavor. But, reality is, the game makers made the game with a certain main story in mind & around. Fact that someone enjoys side content more than what the game is made around, is your own personal & subjective enjoyment. It doesn't change the foundation of what the game was built around, which is dungeons, raids, trials and gear to move on to higher forms of each.

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Originally Posted by Serdapi

Sorry you aren't good at arguments. Enjoyment and "Shitty games" are feelings/opinions that's why its not a purpose. Also, people play games that aren't fun all the time, especially when friends and social pressures are involved in MMO games.

I'm done with you kid, go back to making bad arguments and false claims about the content of this games and others.

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Well sorry again, Mr. Grownup, but "compelling content" is entirely subjective, and the main story might not strike everyone's fancy, see. This means enjoyment is also subjective and the purpose is now defined entirely by the emotions of the player, who himself decides whether or not the devs made an awesome game.

And uh, no, people don't play un-fun games all the time, that's just, like, your opinion, man. I personally think Boob Bunny Fighter Online is a wicked sick game, because i like terrible games. They give me enjoyment because...

...wait, what?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Well sorry again, Mr. Grownup, but "compelling content" is entirely subjective, and the main story might not strike everyone's fancy, see. This means enjoyment is also subjective and the purpose is now defined entirely by the emotions of the player, who himself decides whether or not the devs made an awesome game.

And uh, no, people don't play un-fun games all the time, that's just, like, your opinion, man. I personally think Boob Bunny Fighter Online is a wicked sick game, because i like terrible games. They give me enjoyment because...

...wait, what?

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With some it's their way or the highway. Got to love it. Having a different point of view does not make one a kid.

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Originally Posted by Zooters

Serdapi is making a fine and reasonable debate. If I write a novel, it is to tell a story. If people enjoy it, that is up to if they liked or disliked the story I provided. Enjoyment is a subjective term and in any "argument" could be made for any artistic endeavor. But, reality is, the game makers made the game with a certain main story in mind & around. Fact that someone enjoys side content more than what the game is made around, is your own personal & subjective enjoyment. It doesn't change the foundation of what the game was built around, which is dungeons, raids, trials and gear to move on to higher forms of each.

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He would be making a fine and reasonable debate, if we were discussing a novel. But a videogame is not a novel. The story would be utterly pointless if the gameplay wasn't fun...but could you make the same argument in vice versa? Well, perhaps you could, I wouldn't bother with ARR if it wasn't well written with good artistic design...but that's not really the point.

If the FFXIII trilogy, Metroid: Other M and DmC: Devil May Cry has taught us anything, it's that "story" really isn't going to carry your game for you. Granted, all 3 of those games had dreadful stories...but then again, their main focal point, ironically, was to have an emotionally gripping, powerful story.


All i'm saying is, there's really no reason in disconnecting the two, and from a game design perspective, it's much, much better to instead view both of them as one interlocking entity. Completely unrelated to this discussion, I actually think XIV does that exceedingly well.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Nobody bought the CE for the in-game items, they bought it for that AND tons of other awesome tangible loot they got with the package.

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you missed the point by a far shot. Physical CE edition is no longer available (will probably return with 3.0 but until then...) so all that remains is the digital upgrade to CE, which only gives 2 mounts, 2 minions, a leveling helmet and that's it... for $20. And people are perfectly fine with that. Although it is exactly the same as what's in the CS, except it's a bargain because you'll get future CE's digital upgrades, and includes a little "P2W" factor in that leveling helmet (worthless after lv20 but not the point).

But yet again, noone ever complained about the digital CE upgrade. I wonder why

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Well sorry again, Mr. Grownup, but "compelling content" is entirely subjective, and the main story might not strike everyone's fancy, see. This means enjoyment is also subjective and the purpose is now defined entirely by the emotions of the player, who himself decides whether or not the devs made an awesome game.

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here again you fail to see the point.

Devs create a game. They make it with an objective in mind, which is telling a story, creating challenging raids, etc etc. And they add extra fluff for vanity inside.
Therefore, the purpose of the game is to tell you this story the devs made especially for you.

Do you like it ? do you hate it ? That's where the enjoyment part comes in. But it's no longer the purpose of the game. It's its results. And it's no longer a game purpose but a commercial purpose. Things you enjoy doing in the game may not be related to the game's purpose. That's what vanity is for. There would be no point for vanity in a game where people only rush to the end like mindless zerg machines. But you shouldn't then misunderstand these things you enjoy as the purpose of the game.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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You're really just talking around what everyone is saying to you. Adjusting what you're trying to say to support yourself. It's just going in circles beyond this point. To sum things up, the Core Game is Dungeons, Raids, Trials and gear to move on to higher Dungeons, Raids and Trials that get you more gear. Side quests, minions, housing, wedding, mounts, etc... are all side components of the game, from the point of the game makers. If you play to collect things, the game was not built to you. The devs aren't making Animal Crossing. If that's the type of game you enjoy, this might not be the best game for you. Though you can do the collecting, it just sounds like people don't enjoy the way it is implemented, but again, it isn't the developers main focus. It isn't the main core of their game.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

But yet again, noone ever complained about the digital CE upgrade. I wonder why

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...because, no matter how many times people try to make this situation analogous to the cash shop...fundementally it isn't. That's why it doesn't get the same response.

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here again you fail to see the point.

Devs create a game. They make it with an objective in mind, which is telling a story, creating challenging raids, etc etc. And they add extra fluff for vanity inside.
Therefore, the purpose of the game is to tell you this story the devs made especially for you.

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first off, that was almost entirely a troll post.

Second, the point you're failing to see is, if the devs only wanted to tell you an awesome story, they could have just cut out the programmers, sound directors, hired Yoshida for some cover art and sold a novel. But they didn't they made an entire game. The objective, the main objective, the only true objective, especially as an P2P MMO, is for you to play the game. Everything they made is utterly pointless if this doesn't happen, because now they aren't getting paid.

You may not believe this, but everything in the game encompasses "gameplay". You may PERSONALLY play the game and keep playing for your own reasons, but to cut out little pieces (vanity, raid content, lore content, main story content) as if they are mutually exclusive features makes no sense. This is literally the only reason cash shop exists, because the content they put there is technically part of why you're playing the game, but if you weren't drawn in by the rest of the content you wouldn't even be subscribed to it.

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Originally Posted by Zooters

stuff

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I hate animal crossing, so, yeah, stuff

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Originally Posted by Edellis

snip

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First, I'd point out that the digital download version of the CE, and the mogstation upgrade, only carry the ingame stuff. Yet people bought it anyway. The physical package is even more expensive, and one could even argue that the physical loot is itself like a cash shop bonus.

Second, how on earth is the Sleipnir mount a "super special ride" while the Coeurl mount has "a practical purpose for existing"? They're both exclusive mounts, and they both move at the same damn speed as the normal mounts. Literally the only thing the CE gives that's "practical" is the one-time-password token (which is the main reason I got it), and that only comes with the physical edition. The digital version is equivalent to getting stuff off the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

First, I'd point out that the digital download version of the CE, and the mogstation upgrade, only carry the ingame stuff. Yet people bought it anyway. The physical package is even more expensive, and one could even argue that the physical loot is itself like a cash shop bonus.

Second, how on earth is the Sleipnir mount a "super special ride" while the Coeurl mount has "a practical purpose for existing"? They're both exclusive mounts, and they both move at the same damn speed as the normal mounts. If there was a cash shop exclusive dungeon your analogy would make sense, but as it is buying the CE upgrade off the mogstation and buying stuff off the cash shop is exactly the same.

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No one is arguing it's not exactly the same. The difference is, physical CEs exist and offer both physical and digital items at the same time. Physical CEs always come first, most people buy physical CEs for the physical goodies themselves. Had there not been any physical CEs at all, then yes, it'd be exactly the same as offering any other item on any cash shop, except of items sold individually they're being sold as a pack I guess. Seeing how physical CEs already cost more than a regular edition to cover the costs of the additional physical items being offered, it's not really a bonus at all, people know exactly what they're paying for both physically and digitally when they buy one.

Yes, people still buy digital CEs anyway because they either like collecting stuff or to support the game and company, and yes that's still fine. Again, the qualms are about the transparency of how the cash shop stuff is being handled, especially moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

snipped to save character space, apparently SE needs to fix this whole editing malarkey.

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I remember in the beta of ARR that there were complaints about 1.0 legacy players having an "advantage" over others because they got to keep their stuff and character data, when in the end it didn't matter because they didn't get to keep their relics and stuff and had to do quests all over again anyway and no level cap increase after 3 years.
People also wanted 1.0 characters deleted so that they wouldn't feel "Left out" of "cool content".


Thing is... It didn't matter in the end because everyone is level capped.

People crying that this whole wedding thing is advantegous for those that buy the upgrade:

In the end:
You're still getting married and none of it will matter anymore.

/THREAD

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Originally Posted by Roris

No one is arguing it's not exactly the same.

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Pretty sure that that's exactly what Edelis is doing.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Again, the qualms are about the transparency of how the cash shop stuff is being handled, especially moving forward.

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And like I've said, we are in agreement on that point.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

First, I'd point out that the digital download version of the CE, and the mogstation upgrade, only carry the ingame stuff. Yet people bought it anyway. The physical package is even more expensive, and one could even argue that the physical loot is itself like a cash shop bonus.

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Yeah, i know. Thats why it's silly. But, hey, at least the in-game stuff isn't eternally exclusive.

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Second, how on earth is the Sleipnir mount a "super special ride" while the Coeurl mount has "a practical purpose for existing"? They're both exclusive mounts, and they both move at the same damn speed as the normal mounts. Literally the only thing the CE gives that's "practical" is the one-time-password token (which is the main reason I got it), and that only comes with the physical edition. The digital version is equivalent to getting stuff off the cash shop.

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Ohh my god, didn't we go through this already?

Why are we back to discussing CE vs. Cash Shop? Has it not already been established how fundamentally different it was?

Haven't many people already brought up how nobody complains about CE content?

So why are we pretending that they're the same thing when they're clearly not?

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

In the end:
You're still getting married and none of it will matter anymore.

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People with the gold/platinum plan will still have the two person mount, people with standard still won't. Until they give people a way to obtain a two person mount in game, this will continue to matter.

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

And people have a two person mount exploiting the recruitment campaign.
Your point being?

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My point being, that, as long as SE refuse to give people an in-game way of obtaining a 2-person mount, people will be angry every time a new way to obtain one with real life cash is offered.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

People with the gold/platinum plan will still have the two person mount, people with standard still won't. Until they give people a way to obtain a two person mount in game, this will continue to matter.

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And people have a two person mount exploiting the recruitment campaign.
Your point being?

People cried that they wanted to get MARRIED no one gave a rat's ass about the mounts or minions until they found out that if they paid a minimal fee for extra fluff, they'd get it.

So is this feature about the actual ceremony that people wanted or the additional fluff that makes the entire ceremony a secondary thought?

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

And people have a two person mount exploiting the recruitment campaign.
Your point being?

People cried that they wanted to get MARRIED no one gave a rat's ass about the mounts or minions until they found out that if they paid a minimal fee for extra fluff, they'd get it.

So is this feature about the actual ceremony that people wanted or the additional fluff that makes the entire ceremony a secondary thought?

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Because its the recruitment campaign. Again, not the same. It's a reward for getting someone else to play the game. Understandable. Plus, i dont have to pay extra.

Marriage though, is a feature, for players who have (likely) put alot of time into the game, touted as a feature, yet cut in half by a pay wall solely for the sake that they can.


I should note, i really don't give a shit about in-game marriage or any of the stuff in the cash shop, so i really don't care that it exists. I'm only disagreeing with the "reasons" people are saying its somehow different from other situations, because if by chance i did give a shit about marriage, i'd be really pissed off.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Because its the recruitment campaign. Again, not the same.

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Someone is paying $30 for a mount that the recruiter gets that they won't.
Unless that person is also the recruited.

So you're telling me that people will whine about something that's bought as an upgrade through a cash shop, but not a $24 horse, or a $30 chocobo?

This community is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

And people have a two person mount exploiting the recruitment campaign.
Your point being?

People cried that they wanted to get MARRIED no one gave a rat's ass about the mounts or minions until they found out that if they paid a minimal fee for extra fluff, they'd get it.

So is this feature about the actual ceremony that people wanted or the additional fluff that makes the entire ceremony a secondary thought?

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Thats a lie, in fact, the first 2 people mount was announced and has been marketing for the whole thing since the very begining.

And is 2 completely diferent things, the rewards for a collector edition or a recruiting campaing are completely fine, they are good in fact, and they don`t divide ingame experiences. The marriage on the other hand... Is 2 and possible 3 diferente experiences for players depending on how much they are willying to pay and thats bad. Period.

Now, if you, as many more white knights, belive that marriage is just vanity and optional and the only true game is to level and get gear. The recruiting campaing gives an exp bonus up to lvl 25 to characters, thats pay2win actually.

And this has never been about the mount or minions. Even if the paid version would just add more detail to the cutscenes with any other change, that would still be completely wrong. Dividing content into free and premium is wrong, thats the point.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Second, the point you're failing to see is, if the devs only wanted to tell you an awesome story, they could have just cut out the programmers, sound directors, hired Yoshida for some cover art and sold a novel. But they didn't they made an entire game.

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Heh, I'll separate it from the rest so that you can't ignore it this time

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Devs create a game. They make it with an objective in mind, which is telling a story, creating challenging raids, etc etc

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THEY DO CREATE A GAME FOR WHAT IT IS. And it's, well... a game. Telling a story, letting you play all the way to the end. But in the end, it's still a story. In this case with dungeons and raids (so playable content). In Tekken (example) there are fights thrown in between. Still gives a story to us.

I will admit that you willingfully ignore the point brought to you, namely the fact that a game purpose (set by devs) and a product purpose (set by marketting) aren't the same, even though they may go along the same lines (people playing)

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Originally Posted by Roris

Yes, people still buy digital CEs anyway because they either like collecting stuff or to support the game and company, and yes that's still fine. Again, the qualms are about the transparency of how the cash shop stuff is being handled, especially moving forward.

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Noone is arguing that or so I believe. Transparency is the key and the reason why people felt cheated.

Though on the point that was being made, CE in its digital form is no different from CS except the "evolving bundle" concept, and yet noone even complains. When people are *still* crying over the exact same service, which is the sale of exclusive minions for extra fees. Hypocrisy at its finest, as 2 services that are exactly the same (digital only goodies for extra fees) get a different treatment.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

And is 2 completely diferent things, the rewards for a collector edition or a recruiting campaing are completely fine, they are good in fact, and they don`t divide ingame experiences. The marriage on the other hand... Is 2 and possible 3 diferente experiences for players depending on how much they are willying to pay and thats bad. Period.

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Trolling hard here ? CE or referral program is "2 and possible 3 diferente experiences for players depending on how much they are willying to pay" but that's fine, while the exact same thing (your own words) for marriage is bad ? get real.
CE gives you extra features for paying more. Referral does that too in a lesser extent (someone else pays for YOU to get the mount). They DO give different experience depending on how much you're willing to pay.

You may want to review your point or admit you just ran out of arguments and started saying nonsense. (I sure hope for the first option)

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Now, if you, as many more white knights, belive that marriage is just vanity and optional and the only true game is to level and get gear. The recruiting campaing gives an exp bonus up to lvl 25 to characters, thats pay2win actually.

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CE does the same. P2W mate, P2W
oh but wait, CE is perfectly fine. Np
/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

And this has never been about the mount or minions. Even if the paid version would just add more detail to the cutscenes with any other change, that would still be completely wrong. Dividing content into free and premium is wrong, thats the point.

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are you wanting the feature for the fluff or the ceremony ?

=> want it for the ceremony : why the heck do you give a fuck about all that ?
=> want it for fluff : the feature was never made for you in the first place, Yoshida himself said that he wanted the EB to be RP only
=> don't want it : why the heck do you give a fuck about all that ?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Ohh my god, didn't we go through this already?

Why are we back to discussing CE vs. Cash Shop? Has it not already been established how fundamentally different it was?

Haven't many people already brought up how nobody complains about CE content?

So why are we pretending that they're the same thing when they're clearly not?

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You presented a weak argument that convinced no-one, so no, it is not "established". People bring up that no-one complained about CE to point out the hypocrisy in now complaining about the cash shop when it's exactly the same.