WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A BARD IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SING?!

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

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It's their job to sing songs. As someone earlier said, it's like a healer not using medica in a massive AoE spike damage situation, or a tank not using combos to keep hate. Monitoring a situation as a bard is vital. If, for example, the healers are continuously having to raise people, then it's going to absolutely destroy their MP pool(it shouldn't be happening, but it does). A good bard will watching closely and use ballad..

As a Bard I actually appreciate this thread. I use my songs when I see a need, but in the back of my head I always worry that the healer is going to need mp and I don't want to be in a situation where I am out of MP when it happens. This thread challenges me to do better. Requiem is an awesome tool if we see it as our way of increasing "party" dps. Too often I get caught up in trying to show how much dps I can contribute and forget that it is really about the overall win. I say that to say this: everyone has a certain level of ego that translates into the way we play. Don't assume that folks are just ignorant about how to play. We may just need a reminder from time to time to put our pride in check. As an ilvl 107 Bard I can dps with most, but I still need to play my part in supporting the rest of the team. Good thread. Thanks to all who have responded to op.

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

Seriously you're moaning about bards not just jumping on the band wagon and singing songs?

How about asking - yes they have brains and eyes and can sing for themselves, but you have a tongue - well fingers in this case - USE THEM and stop moaning.

You know what I'd like? Less whiny healers that deplete ALL of their mp on holy because they want quicker runs of dungeons - that don't then moan that they have a lack of mp.

I'd also like white mages that know how to utilise shroud of saints to reduce enmity, and black mages that know how to use quelling strikes - priorities in my opinion.

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Job Name = Bard. What do bards do ? Sing. I see no banwagon

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Originally Posted by Merylx

It's their job to sing songs. As someone earlier said, it's like a healer not using medica in a massive AoE spike damage situation, or a tank not using combos to keep hate. Monitoring a situation as a bard is vital. If, for example, the healers are continuously having to raise people, then it's going to absolutely destroy their MP pool(it shouldn't be happening, but it does). A good bard will watching closely and use ballad..

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A good bard will watch and use the proper song when needed. :p

It's like: I'm scholar but I'm not going to use Sacred Soil because I prefer to use Energy Drain and keep up my MP. That makes no sense at all and will make me a selfish person.

I guess it's cause the Bard has rare skills that assist others in the party and that coordinating with party members is just too foreign a concept in this game.

Common scenario:

- Hey bud, could you use Mage's Ballad?

- Fuck you.

I play bard and do use songs whenever possible. That probably stems from my enjoyment of bard in 11 though.

However, in FF14 a bard is ranger. The songs are really slightly underwhelming. Also BLM, SCH, and SMN really don't need songs, save for the longest of fights. So whats left? You sing for DRG TP, WHT MP, and sometimes i will pop a song if there are enough BLM/SMN to make the Elemental debuff worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Dude

Also BLM, SCH, and SMN really don't need songs, save for the longest of fights.

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Are you sure you're not confusing yourself with Army's Paeon for melee? Because length of the fight is irrelevant for casters. 15% more damage is 15% more whether it's 30 seconds or 4-5 minutes.

We should all calm down and just say it's SE's fault and they should do a radical change to the archer class tree.

It would make life so much easier.

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Originally Posted by Seoki

We should all calm down and just say it's SE's fault and they should do a radical change to the archer class tree.

It would make life so much easier.

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totally.

i main SCH and BRD is my primary DPS job. i didn't pick it cause i want to sing, i picked it cause i want to do ranged DPS without interrupt casting. i baby sit people enough as a healer, if you want songs ask.

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Originally Posted by Mamba

I dunno, I find this weird.
Is the rest of your DPS really bad?
In my experience you dont need 30 Holys to kill a group of mobs...

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You don't need 30, but you do need more than 2-3. And that's *per group* adding up

You're never gonna get it, never gonna get it.

Neeever gonna get it, never gonna get it.

Neeeeeeever gonna get it, oh oh oh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!










aw snap you meant in game?! :o

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Originally Posted by reality_check

WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A BARD IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SING?!

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Just because you CAN sing, doesnt mean you SHOULD sing ....

http://media.newindianexpress.com/Ju...-Bieber2AP.jpg

If Bards don't sing it doesnt mean the WHM will spam Holy until he runs to zero MP, it means he can spam less Holy than he would be able to with Ballad.

Anyway some parties care for holy spams and some dont. Don't see what's the big deal see how your groups want to play and adapt to it... If its a PF claiming SR then its a diff story and you can expect the Bard to do everything in his power to speed things up just like the rest of the party and even if it means to sing songs.

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Originally Posted by Merylx

It's their job to sing songs. As someone earlier said, it's like a healer not using medica in a massive AoE spike damage situation, or a tank not using combos to keep hate. Monitoring a situation as a bard is vital. If, for example, the healers are continuously having to raise people, then it's going to absolutely destroy their MP pool(it shouldn't be happening, but it does). A good bard will watching closely and use ballad..

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At the same time, depending on which fight it is, a healer needs to know when to not revive. I was healing Titan HM as a SCH, and 2 DPS kept dying over and over again during the final phase (a DRG and a BLM), so I just stopped reviving them, they weren't surviving even with Galvanize, Sacred Soil, and Stoneskin on them (they couldn't dodge WotL properly), so there was no point.

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Originally Posted by Merylx

It's their job to sing songs. As someone earlier said, it's like a healer not using medica in a massive AoE spike damage situation, or a tank not using combos to keep hate. Monitoring a situation as a bard is vital. If, for example, the healers are continuously having to raise people, then it's going to absolutely destroy their MP pool(it shouldn't be happening, but it does). A good bard will watching closely and use ballad..

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Sooo, basically what you're saying is - When other people fail to do their jobs correctly (i.e., dying and requiring a raise), Bards have to go out of their way to correct their mistakes.
Got it.

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Originally Posted by Cspr_Answrth

Sooo, basically what you're saying is - When other people fail to do their jobs correctly (i.e., dying and requiring a raise), Bards have to go out of their way to correct their mistakes.
Got it.

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It's really not that hard to use your support abilities.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

a healer needs to know when to not revive.

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Sorry to correct you, but I think it is more appropriate to say that people needs to know when accept ress. Healer will ress when have the time to do it, and it may happen that is also not the right moment to instantly accept it.

Some people don't appreciate it when I try to sing.

http://i.imgur.com/5Uxya.gif

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

It's really not that hard to use your support abilities.

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Hard no, but it does come at a cost. Bard loses 20% damage while using Ballad or Paeon, so that's ultimately costing the party. For prolonged fights, sure, but lets be honest, most basic content is pretty faceroll easy now, and doesn't require bards to sing ballad.

Foe Requiem, on the other hand, is always worth casting when you have a caster. It's just common sense to increase the damage output overall.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Sorry to correct you, but I think it is more appropriate to say that people needs to know when accept ress. Healer will ress when have the time to do it, and it may happen that is also not the right moment to instantly accept it.

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Most of the troublesome people I have to rez who die in Titan either don't know the fight, or have latency/lag problems so they're hit with attacks more often than others. I personally had a bad run as a MNK the other day in Titan HM due to latency (one of the rare days) and kept getting hit by everything due to it, finally dying 4 times in the final phase, every single time to WotL. After the 3rd rez I told the WHMs to stop reviving me, and concentrate on keeping the party alive, because they were going to burn through their MP just rezzing me. That is the sort of thing I mean, you must know who the weakest link is in a primal fight and know to not revive them because they are just going to die again. And I don't mean don't revive them after their first death, but after the 3rd time there's no longer a point to it, you KNOW they're going to die again.

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Originally Posted by Marael

Just FYI, when I am playing bard in a party with a WHM who blows ALL of his/her MP on holy without any restraint whatsoever, I make a point of NOT playing ballad for them. DPS is NOT your job. If you are not going to save at least SOME MP to do the job that you are there for NO OTHER REASON to do, that is YOUR bad, not mine. You are not a DPS, you are a healer. If you want to DPS then Queue up as a DPS. If you are a healer, you can DPS with your MP so long as you have enough for the needs of the party, but if you blow ALL of it on your DPSing without any thought whatsoever for the role that you are supposed to be playing in that party that is YOUR bad, not that of the bard.

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I hate to break it to you mate but white mages do a lot to speed up monotonous dungeon runs when everyone overgears the hell out of things and folks are just there for their roulette or for fashion. Cleric Stance DPS is pretty real for a way to speed up a run, same with wearing strength accessories as a tank when you overgear the hell out of things.

e: You remind me of those dangerous folks on the road who do stupid shit to try and teach bad drivers a lesson which ends up with more folks getting involved in a wreck.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

totally.

i main SCH and BRD is my primary DPS job. i didn't pick it cause i want to sing, i picked it cause i want to do ranged DPS without interrupt casting. i baby sit people enough as a healer, if you want songs ask.

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How hard is it to play your job properly and just look at the group and judge which songs benefits which situation ?

When you pick a job, you get everything that comes with it which includes the support abilities. Whether you think these abilities are for babysitting for is irrelevant, they need to be used when it's needed. For example, a white mage in most situations (which means almost anytime outside of Holy spam runs) won't have time to ask for Ballad when it's needed considering that if he is running oom, he's probably taxed enough as is.

Just stop being lazy, have some initiative and sing when it's needed, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Hard no, but it does come at a cost. Bard loses 20% damage while using Ballad or Paeon, so that's ultimately costing the party. For prolonged fights, sure, but lets be honest, most basic content is pretty faceroll easy now, and doesn't require bards to sing ballad.

Foe Requiem, on the other hand, is always worth casting when you have a caster. It's just common sense to increase the damage output overall.

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How's the song not beneficial either though? I'm just not following how it 'll cost the party to sing during needed situations.

Nerfing your dps is never good unless there's a good reason for it. A bard that sings when not needed is only hurting the group by weakening their dps.

more dps = things die faster = people take less damage. you always want more dps

I don't know why people don't like to talk in this game. That's my main question.
"Bards should know when to do this and that."
Okay...Like I said, they barely have to touch a song. Requiem is the most played song.
What if they forgotten? Or not paying attention sometimes.
If I had a WHM as a teammate and they're dead, and I'm a SCH, we have a bard. I would sometimes mention to please sing for the WHM once he is rez.
He does it, I pop a heal for WHM, we're all good. If he doesn't sing Req....then ask. He'll probably do it. Communicate people.
And really this is SE's fault for making a hybrid that just kinda sucks and is better full DPS.
You either make a real Bard SE and make a Ranger, or fix Bard's.

Also, as whoever said "Healers should only heal." Okay if you see that you have time to DPS. You could
go ahead and though a dot or 2 just to help out. People are very happy to see healers quickly CS throw some dot's and
resume the heals. That's what I do. If you don't, that's fine.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Nerfing your dps is never good unless there's a good reason for it. A bard that sings when needed is only hurting the group by weakening their dps.

more dps = things die faster = people take less damage. you always want more dps

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Well if that's the case then they should just remove. I guess I'm just different from the majority. Thing'll go fast regardless but everyone else needs that extra 5mins. I plan to sing if even I go bard. "A bard that sing when needed is hurt DPS" <-- wtf more beep boop numbers nonsense

Obviously I forgot the "not" there.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

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Because, for the 50th time in this thread, that is their JOB. It is not my responsibility to tell you what song to play. It is their job to assess the situation at hand and choose the best song for said situation, just like it is for healers to use the most efficient healing skill for the situation instead of "LOLMEDICA2! BARD!! BALLAD ME!!!!". BRD DPS rotation is incredibly simple, and the challenge that comes with using a BRD is managing your songs. "What if they forgot? Or don't pay attention sometimes?" What if a healer forgets to heal, or doesn't pay attention? What if a tank forgets how to tank? It's not SE's fault for making a hybrid. If you choose to play BRD, then part of that role is to support when needed. That's like a PLD that doesn't want to tank but picked it because it's the only "sword class". On top of that, there's also the all-too-common "don't tell me how to play" players whenever you communicate with them.

If it's not important to someone to play as effectively as possible, they need to stick to low level content. A lot of bards aren't aware if this- I wasn't until I leveled Dragoon- but they have a skill at the end of a combo that decreases piercing resistance which in turn increases a Bard's DPS against the enemy. A Bard not using Foe Requiem situationally to increase caster damage is like a Dragoon saying 'meh that's too much work I'm just going to do my favorite combo over and over no matter what.' That's their choice but it makes them a mediocre player. Or a healer not bothering with Aero and just jumping around in circles when there's no need to cast Cure. Being as effective as possible in an ever-changing variety of situations is one of the main things that makes multiplayer games interesting and makes it worthwhile (usually) having to put up with the derp/troll factor. I remember being in one of the primals recently, maybe Garuda HM or EX, where there was a big benefit from Holy being utilized at a few junctures by the WHM and we got in perfect synch with me kicking off Foe Requiem as she'd go into cleric stance, and back off to conserve my mp or swap to ballad (the few times it was needed based on her MP level) as she turned cleric off again. The DPS loss from the occasional ballad to restore some WHM MP was nothing compared to the overall gain we got from multiple Holy's at 1.2x effectiveness (and 1.4 with Battlevoice) and that's aside from the fact the same bonus was applied to damage from other casters in the party. Being that in synch with someone and being a combined powerhouse was a lot more fun than playing like I was solo'ing alongside 7 other people.

Here's my approach- not saying it's the only valid one, but it's gotten me a lot of positive feedback in-game from healers and casters:

Ballad: Watching Healer's MP as a Bard is no more difficult than their tracking the entire party's HP and adverse statuses like Poison to dispel while being subjected to the same dodge requirements as us. With 2.2 I made the default party sort order as DPS be to have healers at the bottom of the party list so I don't even have to actively 'watch' it to know when someone's gone too low. If anyone's finding tracking MP as a Bard for ballad to be a distraction, if you try that and only take the healer mp at the bottom of the list into consideration as a general rule, it should become intuitive. My general rule is if a WHM is below 50% MP or a Scholar below around 33% I'm make a mental note of it. If something goes wrong and a revive (MP intensive) is needed, or one of two healers gets killed, casting ballad (and battle voice if not on CD) prior to them getting down to MP so low they can only cure the tank could be the difference between success and failure. It's super rare someone has to ask me for Ballad, and it's never that I'm told I can turn it off because it's not needed and I'm wasting it.

Foe Requiem: One of our most powerful Bard abilities, and something that could perhaps have been introduced to us in a better way which is what makes a lot of Bards hesitant to use it in situations where it's safe. Yes it pulls enmity in a large AOE range- I remember soon after I first got it I was in the middle of an ice sprite fate in Coerthas and thought- ah this is a great opportunity to use this because I can increase damage all these casters who aren't even in a party with me are doing- my first Foe Requiem suicide. It's really for when you're in a party where a tank has enmity under control and you aren't at risk of pulling in adds left and right, like at a boss fight. If you're running with a Summoner and can throw out Foe Requiem and Battle Voice before they cast and extend their DOT's, that's huge... and if a Scholar can understand a fight well enough to precast defensive heals at certain phases, there's no reason for me not to be able to do the same with Foe Req. If someone doesn't believe this can make a big difference, try running Titan HM with a decent Summoner and during the transition to heart phase where he disappears and can't be casted on, throw out Foe & Battle Voice and when the SMN does Raging Strikes/DOT's and Contagion to extend them you cut 10s or more from that phase and can even end it before the second gaol.

tl;dr #1: If you don't care about making the overall party you're in more effective by using whatever skills are at your disposal, there are plenty of single-player games out there.
tl;dr #2: If you don't want to use Ballad/Requiem as Bard, it's your decision and that just means more commendations for me.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Hard no, but it does come at a cost. Bard loses 20% damage while using Ballad or Paeon, so that's ultimately costing the party. For prolonged fights, sure, but lets be honest, most basic content is pretty faceroll easy now, and doesn't require bards to sing ballad.

Foe Requiem, on the other hand, is always worth casting when you have a caster. It's just common sense to increase the damage output overall.

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thats still a part of your job, if you dont like it then play a class that doesnt loose dps in order to do its job?

On a lighter note; i saw an ST run yesterday with 4 blms and 1 brd. Guess what the brd didnt do when requested to put up foe? Yep. Not do it.

We're not ALL bad! *wink*

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

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Sadly, that is the #1 problem with endgame content right now. The main way to get the 2nd best gear in the game requires that players do the absolute minimum in order to beat the content that rewards said gear, so lazy players have their behavior reinforced. You see it every day. Tanks not rotating cooldowns to make the life of healers easier. DPS that don't dodge because attacks won't kill them and don't bloodbath/second wind themselves after, healers that just stand there doing nothing, and BRDs that don't even Requiem. To some people, as long as the boss dies, then they don't need to fix anything. Congratulations, you beat an ilv 55 dungeon boss with ilv100+ gear. If anything, it would be a challenge to wipe.

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Originally Posted by Odett

What if they forgot? Or don't pay attention sometimes?" What if a healer forgets to heal, or doesn't pay attention?

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Still doesn't hurt to ask them. People do forget. Also, how can you compare a healing class, when that's their main job, to a class that does more DPS than sing a song lol.
If they don't sing when they are asked, they suck. Oh well. That's why I suggest they should just make a real bard class, than whatever the hell we have here.

You seem really hostile too, relax lol. If you aren't, never mind.

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Originally Posted by Odett

I'm not. Forgive me if I seemed that way. I meant that more as a general statement than personally addressing you. Yes, BRD's are a DPS class, but just as importantly, they also sing. Foe Requiem also does not hinder their DPS at all and it's a huge boon to all casters.

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Oh okay, thank you. I apologize too. :)

The attitude of some people in this thread actually makes me want to stop putting up songs.

My favorite is when people try to justify that Bard isn't a support job. Bards are archers with access to unique support abilities you learn through the job quests. This makes them a support job. Saying it isn't a support job is the same as saying Scholar isn't a healer. I mean, the same logic applies right? SCH only gets its healing abilities through the job quests...so logically it's still a DPS role since the majority of the class skills are DPS-oriented.

And the fact that they are labeled as a DPS in-game only exists to appease the need for the trinity set-up, and they are closer to that than either a Healer or a Tank. I know people are looking for a PURE DPS job, but you'll have to wait until Ranger is released (whenever SE decides to implement it, which I believe will be sometime after 2.6)

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Still doesn't hurt to ask them. People do forget. Also, how can you compare a healing class, when that's their main job, to a class that does more DPS than sing a song lol.
If they don't sing when they are asked, they suck. Oh well. That's why I suggest they should just make a real bard class, than whatever the hell we have here.

You seem really hostile too, relax lol. If you aren't, never mind.

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I'm not. Forgive me if I seemed that way. I meant that more as a general statement than personally addressing you. Yes, BRD's are a DPS class, but just as importantly, they also sing. Foe Requiem also does not hinder their DPS at all and it's a huge boon to all casters.

Its understandable to expect a BRD to know when a particular song is needed, but when they have to manage multiple things at once (SCOB comes to mind), is it really that hard for someone to simply request the song if it slips their mind? Also, though BRD loses 20% dps while singing, DRG helps give 10% back as long as they keep their piercing debuff up. And in all seriousness, if a group has a DPS issue due to the BRD singing, you should be having a talk with your other DPS party members.

We'll this went no where, ok support bards willing to do things as situations arise go to that side and I onlydps bards go to that side. Let's just not play with one another, that way everyone is happy cause this is a stalemate.