More Raid content please!

Let me just quote the OP for you.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Difficulty is irrelevant. Raids are MULTI-PARTY events. That is the very definition of a raid : more than one party/group.

I would not call Crystal Tower hard. Would you? Its not "tough" at all. Yet it is the raid in FF14.

Binding Coil, whether talking turn 1 or turn 9, is a single-Full Party event. One is not more than one, therefore Binding Coil is NOT a raid.

FF14 needs some more RAIDS, and it needs TOP END raids, not "a step below top end" raids.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

I'm sorry, I'd forgotten that you've already beaten Syrcus Tower. Have you uploaded your strategy videos yet?

Calling content that hasn't even been released yet "easy" just makes you sound stupid and arrogant. Crystal Tower was designed as a way to get better gear in preparation for Binding Coil, without having to grind Myth Tomes. (Ya know, back when you could only get 1 piece of myth gear every 3 weeks.) And you want raids to be challenging, yet for some reason, will not acknowledge Coil as a raid just because it's not multi group.

This game has not even been out for a year yet, and it already has twice as much content than it started with. If you're not happy with it, than it sounds like a personal problem, and you should find another game.

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The game started with 4 end game events. Currently the game has 4 end game events. This has not increased.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

The game started with 4 end game events. Currently the game has 4 end game events. This has not increased.

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Those 4 you are counting now plus the 4 from before. CoB and SCoB are two different things. Both are end game events, one simply happens to be further along the progression treadmill.

LotA and ST are also end game content for casual progression.

Progression does not make previous content disappear, especially when there are significant amounts of people yet to touch it.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Those 4 you are counting now plus the 4 from before. CoB and SCoB are two different things. Both are end game events, one simply happens to be further along the progression treadmill.

LotA and ST are also end game content for casual progression.

Progression does not make previous content disappear, especially when there are significant amounts of people yet to touch it.

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No..... Group gear is superior to Coil 1 and has a lower ilvl requirement to acquire.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

No..... Group gear is superior to Coil 1 and has a lower ilvl requirement to acquire.

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That's funny. Apparently you're psychic and can see the future because I don't recall them ever saying what the ilvl requirement is to enter the new CT.

I have 4 ex-WoW players in my Coil group and they seem just fine with calling it a Raid. I'm sorry the OP's definition of Raid is different than other people's, I guess?

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

That's funny. Apparently you're psychic and can see the future because I don't recall them ever saying what the ilvl requirement is to enter the new CT.

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Your not very good at reading are you so let me break this down for you.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Those 4 you are counting now plus the 4 from before. CoB and SCoB are two different things. Both are end game events, one simply happens to be further along the progression treadmill.

LotA and ST are also end game content for casual progression.

Progression does not make previous content disappear, especially when there are significant amounts of people yet to touch it.

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CoB (or Coil 1-5 to be clear for you) has a item level requirement that is a bigger number than the item level requirement for the level 50 dungeons. These dungeons provide a currency known as mythology as well as one commonly referred to as soldiery.

Mythology in fact provides gear equivalent to the area referred to in this post as CoB.

Soldiery in fact provides gear superior in every way to the gear obtained in the area referred to in this post as CoB.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

No..... Group gear is superior to Coil 1 and has a lower ilvl requirement to acquire.

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Note no mention of the new CT's level requirement. In fact it specifically says "group gear is superior to Coil 1"

Ah I get it zarzak. End game events only count in your opinion if they provide the best gear...hmm certainly one way to think of it. Guess SCoB won't count anymore for you once 2.4 drops, despite people likely still needing to progess through that end game content. Shame, but least I understand your stance now.

End-game is constantly changing.

SCoB replaced BCoB as "end-game". SCoB is the only end-game content right now. ST, the follow on to CT, is not going to be end-game unless or until it is a higher tier than SCoB. Considering that BCoB was higher tier than CT, I rather doubt that ST will be higher tier than SCoB.

When the Third Coil of Bahamut hits, or something harder with getter loot than SCoB hits, then it will replace SCoB as end-game. End-game is an ever changing point, as content gets added on top of the existing end-game, replacing it.

The single-group nature of BCoB and SCoB still mean they are not raid events, despite SE's classification. A full group is 8 people in FF14:ARR. While an argument can (and, a page or two back, has) been made that the half-group "light party" is the real group, and that the "full party" aspect makes BCoB and SCoB raids, that would logically also make Castrum, Praetorium, and all primal HM/EM events raids as well, something no one, not even SE, is claiming. since they are not raids, Coil is not actually a raid either.

BTW - I've still never played WoW. The term "raid" originates from well before WoW killed the Warcraft RTS series.

Please don't bring this back to your ridiculous claims about raids in XIV-ARR Roth. We've already accepted you won't admit your wrong so no need to bring it up further.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Ah I get it zarzak. End game events only count in your opinion if they provide the best gear...hmm certainly one way to think of it. Guess SCoB won't count anymore for you once 2.4 drops, despite people likely still needing to progess through that end game content. Shame, but least I understand your stance now.

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If group gear didn't surpass the raid content? Sure it would be the entry tier of raiding.

But the progression path in MMOs is...

Step 1: get level cap
Step 2: do the entry group content until you have a full set of "group gear"
Step 3: start raiding for raid gear

group gear currently = weathered. Weathered is ilvl 100.

Coil 1-5 drops ilvl 90. This is irrelevant content. Were it set up like MMOs of old that don't invalidate content every tier release it would look something like...

Patch 2.4

group gear = ilvl 80
raid tier 1 = ilvl 90
raid tier 2 = ilvl 100
raid tier 3 = ilvl 110

^ In this model you would be right. Coil 1-9 would still be relevant and part of the progression path. If you can't understand how absurd it sounds to suggest that in 2.4 people go do Coil 1-5 for ilvl 90 gear when the equivalent Brayflox Hard will be providing ilvl 120 gear......

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

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There's definitely still progression in the model we have now, unless when you hit 50 you immediately think to yourself 'cool only 6 more weeks and I'll have good enough gear to que for t1-5. Sure you get the gear from tomes eventually but you're restricted to 1 piece per week max, and you do still have to beat the previous turns to even access future ones. The tome gear does supplement the raid gear but unless you want to wait a month or 2 before you even start raiding, it's not like the old gear is immediately obsolete.

The gear is is irrelevant but it still takes t5 clear to do t6 and to clear t5 most new players will do t1 through 4 spam to gear for it. I consider that relevant...simple to do and definitely low on the totem pole though. Likewise I see t9 clear being needed for t10, making doing SCoB still relevant. Furthermore new players will still need to do t5 if they haven't cleared. Unless of course SE removes the req, then yeah CoB becomes totally void from the equation.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Snip.

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Apparently you're the one who fails at reading, since the debate in this thread has been Multi-group content (CT) Vs. Solo Group content (BCoB and SCoB).

How is soldiery gear considered "group gear"? You can earn your soldiery gear SOLO by doing Treasure Maps and Beast Tribe quests. Soldiery gear is Tome gear, plain and simple.

Also, Coil 1-5 is hardly irrelevant as some drops are considered BiS prior to being able to get into Second Coil. You cannot fully gear up in Soldiery gear in a single week for your Main class, let alone an alt, thus making your point irrelevant. Not to mention the fact that some Soldiery pieces are so poorly itemized that you can't even wear them until you have other pieces from Second Coil in order to maintain proper stats to be able to Raid effectively. But hey, maybe your vision sucks and you can't read Party Finder descriptions, right?

Tome gear will never be the "Go To" gear for a fresh 50 as long as said Tome is on a weekly cap given the fact that you can only get one piece per week. For a fresh player they're going to get their weekly cap of Tomes and then go do earlier Raid content to gear up (whichever "tier" is appropriate for their current ilvl) and then work from there. Maybe the pieces they get will only last a few weeks, but it's going to be their only choice for quick and easy gear until lockouts are removed.

I'd just like to say there is nowhere in the game will you find a turns called, Turns 6, 7, 8 and 9. Please use the correct terms while discussing.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I'd just like to say there is nowhere in the game will you find a turns called, Turns 6, 7, 8 and 9. Please use the correct terms while discussing.

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I will use t6, 7, 8 and 9 to refer to SCoB t1, 2, 3 and 4 if I want to lol. The community at large understands what I mean by those.

Ran out of posts for now, so I'll edit here.

T6, 7, 8 and 9 are XIV community formed terms to refer to those raids. It is perfectly reasonable to use those in a discussion.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I will use t6, 7, 8 and 9 to refer to SCoB t1, 2, 3 and 4 if I want to lol. The community at large understands what I mean by those.

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But you can't discuss raids without using the correct terms. So use the right ones, please.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

The gear is is irrelevant but it still takes t5 clear to do t6 and to clear t5 most new players will do t1 through 4 spam to gear for it. I consider that relevant...simple to do and definitely low on the totem pole though. Likewise I see t9 clear being needed for t10, making doing SCoB still relevant. Furthermore new players will still need to do t5 if they haven't cleared. Unless of course SE removes the req, then yeah CoB becomes totally void from the equation.

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Not really, as you still need to hit the accuracy cap, something not all soldiery gear will give. Not to mention that you can fill up in ilvl90 whilst soldiery capping for 1lvl100, as t6 is doable in ilvl90, 100 is not needed, just helps XD

Albeit that will change with 2,3 Crystal Tower.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I will use t6, 7, 8 and 9 to refer to SCoB t1, 2, 3 and 4 if I want to lol. The community at large understands what I mean by those.

Ran out of posts for now, so I'll edit here.

T6, 7, 8 and 9 are XIV community formed terms to refer to those raids. It is perfectly reasonable to use those in a discussion.

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But you are wrong, SE decided their proper names in this game are Second Coil Turn 1 to 4, why are you going against SE's official terms? Stop trolling this thread with your weird fake terms for content in this game.

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Originally Posted by Roris

But you are wrong, SE decided their proper names in this game are Second Coil Turn 1 to 4, why are you going against SE's official terms? Stop trolling this thread with your weird fake terms for content in this game.

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See i find this reply hilarious because he was still talking about one thing having multiple definitions and you're sill arguing that things can only have one..........

The difference being that he admits that SCob t1-4 is synonyms with his preferred name of t6-9 and neither is wrong.

Me : SE is wrong for calling single-group content "raid".
Others : SE said its raid, so its raid!
Me : I know they said so, they were in error to do so.
Others : doesn't matter what you say, they said its raid, so its raid!

Neither I nor SE get to define what "raid" means. While the majority of people here were quick to point out half of that statement, they were unwilling to admit the other half. I was never using "my" definition, I use the word appropriately. SE is not. With a proper understanding of what "raid" means, I posted that we need more of it, since CT is the only content that currently fits the definition of a raid.

What SE names a piece of content, such as both referring to it as Turns 6-9 and as the Second Coil, they are allowed to name it what they wish. When they classify something incorrectly, they are allowed to classify it as they wish - which happens to be incorrectly. They *should* classify BCoB and SCoB as group events, just like they classify Titan HM, Garuda EM, Good King Moggle Mog, etc. as group trials. Pointing out their inconsistency on their board obviously leads to people mindlessly adhering to what they say.

I'm still waiting for anyone to offer up what they think, without regard to developer, a raid actually is. Since, apparently, just about everyone thinks that "content designed to be beaten by more than one group" is not a good synopsis of the definitions people found on the internet. Notice that developer does not matter; there is no provision for what Sony thinks, what Blizzard thinks, what NCSoft thinks, what SE thinks, or what any developer thinks for their specific game. I'd also like to know why people think, above and beyond what SE calls it since I've called them into question, two pieces of 8 man content are "raids" in FF14 and the rest are not. Raiding is not necessarily top end, and can incorporate multiple tiers.

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Originally Posted by Roris

But you are wrong, SE decided their proper names in this game are Second Coil Turn 1 to 4, why are you going against SE's official terms? Stop trolling this thread with your weird fake terms for content in this game.

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Dude they are synonyms. It's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

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You obviously just skipped over me explicitly stating what i think of as a raid, let me just go ahead and quote myself.

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Originally Posted by Archulak

When I think of a raid I think of a fight much more challenging than the rest of the game that can consist of either one really powerful boss or multiple segments each with their own boss leading up to a really powerful one.(Independent of party size because more often than not, adding more people just makes the likelihood of error higher which in an entirely artificial increase in difficulty) Your right though, obviously my definition of raid is wrong and yours is the only one that could ever be correct.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

-snip-

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The truth of the matter is you're wrong, as the last 23 pages full of responses have proven. Using other MMOs or generic "standards" does not make what people have said any less true. Your dedication to your cause is admirable, but you aren't even open to the possibility that you could be incorrect in your assumptions. Let's do this again after another 23 pages, shall we? ^^; Now, as to my definition of a raid: It is any content intended to be completed by a group of skilled and geared individuals, whether it be one boss or many. Beyond that the numbers required vary from MMO to MMO, so there is no real standard other than it requires more than 4 or 5. Haven't seen a 1 or 2 man raid...well, ever. Unless someone is soloing old content.

So the typical it's only right when I do it and wrong when others do mentality, gotcha!

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Originally Posted by Roris

So the typical it's only right when I do it and wrong when others do mentality, gotcha!

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There is a distinct difference. You dismiss all other definitions and say they're wrong, calling SCoB t1-4 't6-9' and saying that they are synonyms meaning that both are equally correct, is not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

The truth of the matter is you're wrong, as the last 23 pages full of responses have proven. Using other MMOs or generic "standards" does not make what people have said any less true. Your dedication to your cause is admirable, but you aren't even open to the possibility that you could be incorrect in your assumptions. Let's do this again after another 23 pages, shall we? ^^; Now, as to my definition of a raid: It is any content intended to be completed by a group of skilled and geared individuals, whether it be one boss or many. Beyond that the numbers required vary from MMO to MMO, so there is no real standard other than it may require more than 4 or 5. Haven't seen a 1 or 2 man raid...well, ever. Unless someone is soloing old content.

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By your definition, seeing as Copperbell requires some skill (that should have been learned by the time you reach a high enough level in your class to do the dungeon) and requires 4 people (raids only "may" require more than 4 or 5) it counts as a raid?

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Originally Posted by Archulak

You obviously just skipped over me explicitly stating what i think of as a raid, let me just go ahead and quote myself.

When I think of a raid I think of a fight much more challenging than the rest of the game that can consist of either one really powerful boss or multiple segments each with their own boss leading up to a really powerful one.(Independent of party size because more often than not, adding more people just makes the likelihood of error higher which in an entirely artificial increase in difficulty) Your right though, obviously my definition of raid is wrong and yours is the only one that could ever be correct.

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You've described any dungeon that has a boss fight. Although, your statement that it is independent of group size is accurate, since it is the number of groups (as per that "large scale" definition earlier in the thread) being greater than one that makes it go from group content to raid content.

But, apparently, as far as anyone here is concerned, raid content is an additional descriptor, on a different level from solo content or group content. Have fun people. You've put to rest any desire I've had to have multi-group content.

What FF14 needs are more SOLOABLE RAIDS!!!!!! It lacks any at all!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Me : SE is wrong for calling single-group content "raid".
Others : SE said its raid, so its raid!
Me : I know they said so, they were in error to do so.
Others : doesn't matter what you say, they said its raid, so its raid!

Neither I nor SE get to define what "raid" means. While the majority of people here were quick to point out half of that statement, they were unwilling to admit the other half. I was never using "my" definition, I use the word appropriately. SE is not. With a proper understanding of what "raid" means, I posted that we need more of it, since CT is the only content that currently fits the definition of a raid.

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You don't get to decide what Raid means. SE gets to decide, because it's their game. How can you not get this through your head? You keep saying it's not your definition of the word raid, yet you have shown nothing to the contrary. I posted definitions from 3 different sources that were unbiased towards any one game, and it says nothing about multi-group content, even though you tried to twist the words in your favor. You have shown nothing substantiating your claim of what "Raid" actually means, and why your defintion should apply to this game.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

What FF14 needs are more SOLOABLE RAIDS!!!!!! It lacks any at all!!!!!!!!!!

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I agree we need solo player raids in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

You don't get to decide what Raid means. SE gets to decide, because it's their game. How can you not get this through your head? You keep saying it's not your definition of the word raid, yet you have shown nothing to the contrary. I posted definitions from 3 different sources that were unbiased towards any one game, and it says nothing about multi-group content, even though you tried to twist the words in your favor. You have shown nothing substantiating your claim of what "Raid" actually means, and why your defintion should apply to this game.

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Why does SE get to define something that has been defined? Would that mean SE can define an alliance as one person if they choose?

The definition of a RAID outside the mmo genre means nothing. This is the only mmo game that considers a raid = full party.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Why does SE get to define something that has been defined? Would that mean SE can define an alliance as one person if they choose?

The definition of a RAID outside the mmo genre means nothing. This is the only game that considers a raid = full party.

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Why does the game that originally designated something called a raid get to have the undisputed definition of it......... see how that works.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

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You just love picking apart everyone's statements and manipulating them, don't ya? The "may" will be removed so there is no confusion. Now, that said: The "may" was meant to convey my statement in a casual manner that it wasn't a fact. As I have said before, numbers will vary. Though I believe it is certainly more than 4 or 5.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Why does SE get to define something that has been defined? Would that mean SE can define an alliance as one person if they choose?

The definition of a RAID outside the mmo genre means nothing. This is the only mmo game that considers a raid = full party.

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Defined by WHO? Show me ANYTHING to back up your statement. You can't just take a word, change the dictionary meaning, and then mandate that every future game must now use it in this context. How arrogant are you?

I have now decided that MMO actually means first person shooter. Any person who now disagrees is wrong, and is using the term incorrectly.

That sentence makes as much sense as what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

SE gets to decide, because it's their game.

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It is their game.

Raid is not their word. Binding Coil of Bahamut, that is their word. They have just as much a right to define raid as you or I do, which is to say, none at all. And the words "large scale" in the definition mean that it is too large for a single group, thus multiple groups. It is not twisting a definition to reflect the meaning; it is twisting the definition when you try to make it mean something it never has.

And raid never has meant single-group content. Raid has never meant soloable content. It means multiple groups, initially many groups, but developers have taken to paring the number down. WoW has 2 group raids. What 1 group raids does it have? Even a guy who's never played it knows the answer to that : none, because that is group content, not raid content. EQ had, when it first implemented their raid system, 12 groups. Their instances support up to 9 groups. How many one-group raids does it have? Again, none, because that is group content, not raid content.

I am not the one doing the twisting around, when I hold them to what the word means.

But, y'all seem as likely to accept that as I am to accept any other obvious falsehood. SE calls it what they call it. I say they are wrong, that's not what raid means. You say that raid means whatever they say it means. Do "hit points" get to change their definition because SE says so? How about "magic points" or "armor class"? Or how about "sword" - are they allowed to take a suit of platemail and decide that it is an edged weapon?

Maximum number of people in the groups that comprise the raid are irrelevant. In FF14, it is 8 people. Other games have other numbers. Their raids are multi-group, as opposed to single group content. SE is the one ignoring the definition. Heck - did FF11 have any "one group raids" or were all that game's raids multi-group?

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Defined by WHO? Show me ANYTHING to back up your statement. You can't just take a word, change the dictionary meaning, and then mandate that every future game must now use it in this context. How arrogant are you?

I have now decided that MMO actually means first person shooter. Any person who now disagrees is wrong, and is using the term incorrectly.

That sentence makes as much sense as what you are saying.

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We didn't change what "raid" means. SE, and people defending SE's choice to call BCoB and SCoB "raids,did.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Defined by WHO? Show me ANYTHING to back up your statement. You can't just take a word, change the dictionary meaning, and then mandate that every future game must now use it in this context. How arrogant are you?

I have now decided that MMO actually means Mandatory Manderville Otter. Any person who now disagrees is wrong, and is using the term incorrectly.

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fixed that for you :p

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

We didn't change what "raid" means. SE's choice to call BCoB and SCoB "raids" did.

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fixed that too. Also, it's not because the general consensus is "raid = 2 or more groups" that you're doomed to use that definition each time. SE called it "raid", it's a raid. Deal with it

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

We didn't change what "raid" means. People defending SE's choice to call BCoB and SCoB "raids" did.

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There is no changing of the word's meaning because there is no definite meaning of the word. If there were then everyone would define it the same way. There is and most likely never will be a consensus on the definition until game developers everywhere sit down and say "hmm yes this will be what is now a raid and shall be in any game made henceforth". Please just give up on your hopeless personal crusade. It wont make you right and it wont change Coil from being a raid in this game.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

We didn't change what "raid" means. People defending SE's choice to call BCoB and SCoB "raids" did.

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This is FF XIV, other games are other games...none of which stick to the same numbers. What you believe is not an opinion to you, it is fact, therefore making your word law in your eyes. For everyone opposed to your opinion it's a lost cause trying to tell you otherwise. I'm sorry, but this game apparently has different standards than what you consider the "right" way, or the true definition. There is no actual standard for what is a raid or not. As it has been said already, SE made this game, so what they call a raid IS a raid in this game. You can either accept that, or people will continue disagreeing with you.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

There is no changing of the word's meaning because there is no definite meaning of the word. If there were then everyone would define it the same way. There is and most likely never will be a consensus on the definition until game developers everywhere sit down and say "hmm yes this will be what is now a raid and shall be in any game made henceforth". Please just give up on your hopeless personal crusade. It wont make you right it and it wont change Coil from being a raid in this game.

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It can't make me something I already am.

However, I don't doubt that you're correct in saying that this won't get SE to get out of being wrong.

As for "no definite meaning of the word" ... rubbish. People have found MMO meanings for raid. And they were all, in one way or another, describing what I've been saying the whole time : multi-group events. Events that are too big for a single group to handle. Events that take more people when initially released than single-group content.

Now you're saying that all that doesn't matter because "there is no definite meaning of the word"? Nice way of saying we're both right when we contradict one another.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

This is FF XIV, other games are other games...none of which stick to the same numbers. What you believe is not an opinion to you, it is fact, therefore making your word law in your eyes. For everyone opposed to your opinion it's a lost cause trying to tell you otherwise. I'm sorry, but this game apparently has different standards than what you consider the "right" way, or the true definition. There is no actual standard for what is a raid or not. As it has been said already, SE made this game, so what they call a raid IS a raid in this game. You can either accept that, or people will continue disagreeing with you.

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When did I say that the numbers have to be consistent across all games? WoW has 2 and 5 group raids. EQ has 9 group raids. Wildstar .. I don't know their group size, but at 40 people, that's going to be a few groups.

The number of groups in the raid only matters in that to be a raid, its got to be greater than one. THAT is the constant. 1 group = one group content. 2 or more groups = raid content. Last I looked, 2, 5, 9, they are all greater than one group. FF14's raid, CT, is 3 groups. Again, more than one group.

Is one person a group? No. Is one person soloing somewhere doing group content? Maybe, if the character is strong enough to handle it. Is content designed for one person "group" content? No. Likewise, content designed for one group is not raid content. Is that soloer doing raid content? Could be, if the character is strong enough, which usually comes about as the game gets older and old raids do not increase in power with characters attempting them.

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Originally Posted by Archulak

There is a distinct difference. You dismiss all other definitions and say they're wrong, calling SCoB t1-4 't6-9' and saying that they are synonyms meaning that both are equally correct, is not the same thing.

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OP used a widely accepted synonym for multi group content in other MMOs, especially in the ones this game heavily borrows from, almost copied directly if you will. He then clarified on the different tiers of content depending on how many people are participating and their composition: solo, group and raid (multi group). Now since the term light means something isn't quite as heavy or full, a Full Party can be safely considered as single full group, just the one group. Then a couple of people who always take every bit of criticism personally decided this was a direct attack on the integrity of the game with direct critical accusations that the game doesn't have a lot of multi group content, which it doesn't by the way, and instantly dismissed everything he said especially knowing full well what he meant by using the term raid.

So yes, it is the same thing. If the game defines Coil as a raid therefore it must be one and must be called so by everyone, so by the same logic he should abide to calling it Second Coil because the game defines it as so, nowhere in the game does it state they are Turn 6 to 9, only the game's definition matters. It's simple really, wouldn't want people thinking anyone is a hypocrite or an apologist.