Dear SE, Yoshi, etc, remove Coil lock outs. Right now.

i'm really fustrated, why can't you just remove lockout to fc members to stop selling runs and 1 piece of gear a week to stop gearing out?

unless u work 9 til 5 and have evenings free u can't join statics and you can't do pf because VoIP is pretty much needed imo and people shy away from pf because there is too much drama and not a friendly atmosphere which people don't want to learn like that and well 99% of pf groups are exp+++++++++++++++

allow fc members to play together ffs like seriously what the hell, forcing 8 man static multiple teams within fcs that are supposed to be a large community where people tackle end-game together just isn't there, so annoying.

hm let's see i work shifts, i can't do end-game because of lockout.

i115 weap no avail, can't pug coil
i110 weap not avail, can't get coil items via pug
i100 levi weap, you have less chance getting a mirror than anything else, real low drop rate then u have to roll against 7 other people who will always need (never seen a mirror drop, been clearing levi 2-3 times a day for months, no jokez.)
so i'm forced to do casual crap for relic which isn't my kind of fun.

so the content i long to do and find fun and exciting i can't do sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Originally Posted by leomax

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Leomax, you have to understand that based on the past 10 months of FF14, you can see the trend on how SE deliberately puts in timesinks and walls to keep people subbed to the game. Instead of making good and abundant content, they put these barriers to slow the game down for players so they can keep subs up but which unfortunately they will learn that it will fail them in the end when FF14 ends up like SWTOR.

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Originally Posted by Madruck

Leomax, you have to understand that based on the past 10 months of FF14, you can see the trend on how SE deliberately puts in timesinks and walls to keep people subbed to the game. Instead of making good and abundant content, they put these barriers to slow the game down for players so they can keep subs up but which unfortunately they will learn that it will fail them in the end when FF14 ends up like SWTOR.

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The thing is they are not slowing the content down they are removing coil totally and locking it out to everyone who isn't in a static who actively wants to progress.

No one wants to party finder the new coil, it is not the type of content that requires no comms upon release and there-after, people want to learn this content in a less stressful, drama-free atmosphere with friends in their respective free company, not with random people via party finder. If this was allowed I am certain there would be a more active party finder with experienced people in coil after they have learned it with their fc/friends.

There is surely a better system, they need to fix this crap.

I really wish I could somehow message Yoshi directly and at least know our voices and concerns are heard it would make me feel better, I hate being left in the dark on something I feel strongly about.

These kind of things never ever get answered in Q&A.

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Originally Posted by leomax

I really wish I could somehow message Yoshi directly and at least know our voices and concerns are heard it would make me feel better, I hate being left in the dark on something I feel strongly about.

These kind of things never ever get answered in Q&A.

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I am with you Leomax, to many things are going wrong on FF14 that we feel like most of our honest concerns are ignored.

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Originally Posted by leomax

I really wish I could somehow message Yoshi directly and at least know our voices and concerns are heard it would make me feel better, I hate being left in the dark on something I feel strongly about.

These kind of things never ever get answered in Q&A.

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Because SE has already answered it. As far as they are concerned, it is a case closed topic. Any complaints from here are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

The only workaround to playing with FC members who already have their downs for the week is alt's.

A couple people from my static are helping other people in our FC on their alts with their clears after they're done with ours.

Apparently Japanese players dont rely on VoIP and clear content just fine. Because they probably talk about strategy and use macros instead of just using youtube as a crutch. But im just hazarding a guess.

Alts are a tacky fix for an issue that shouldn't exist, especially on a game that lets you play every class on the same character, not to mention the entry sub fee only includes one character per server, which is perfectly fine because this game doesn't need alts for anything else. What's next, legacy players or people who pay the full fee are going to be considered better now? That's arguably pay to participate in locked down content.

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Originally Posted by Xairos

Apparently Japanese players dont rely on VoIP and clear content just fine. Because they probably talk about strategy and use macros instead of just using youtube as a crutch. But im just hazarding a guess.

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You are completely guessing and you're wrong. Static, serious groups often use VoIP and they have standardized strats shared around by blogs or videos. Is this even a thread about lockouts or just a general lets have a toddler tantrum about raiders thread?

The Coil lockout for BCoB2 will be gone when BCoB3 opens. Until then, you can wait.

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

The Coil lockout for BCoB2 will be gone when BCoB3 opens. Until then, you can wait.

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*sighs* and this is an attitude that is not needed so when BCoB3 comes out we should all wait 6 months to be able to do it freely with friends. Really awesome way to keep the subs rolling. Having it fully open like the first turn but limiting loot is the answer to the problem it still slows progression but allows the content to be more accessible.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

*sighs* and this is an attitude that is not needed so when BCoB3 comes out we should all wait 6 months to be able to do it freely with friends. Really awesome way to keep the subs rolling. Having it fully open like the first turn but limiting loot is the answer to the problem it still slows progression but allows the content to be more accessible.

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I don't disagree with you here. Locking the ability to roll on loot to a user-account's first clear of the week, while offering unlimited access throughout the week is a viable solution.

So short sighted

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Because SE has already answered it. As far as they are concerned, it is a case closed topic. Any complaints from here are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

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Do you mind linking or telling me where they answered this particular issue? I honestly don't remember when/where they specifically "closed" the issue.


That aside, I'm glad to see that more people are also recognizing that this 8-man, single success lock-out on the latest content with the most sought-after gear is basically poison for Free Companies while encouraging cliquing. Even outside of the FC and within a static of 8 people, just one person going off and clearing a Turn on their own time that the group was working on clearing totally disrupts the rest of the group, assuming they can't find a replacement to fill that slot. Would be nice if they could still go back and run the Turn again with their static, maybe with some info like "this is what that group did differently that worked better."

It's tough though to just simply make it a "1 loot per Turn" solution rather than a "1 successful clear per week," (like I'm seeing being requested here and there) now that they have implemented sands, oils and the unidentified tomestone as 100% drops upon wins. Unless they decide to change it to something more along the lines of "only able to roll on items on 1st clear of the week;" that still allows for players to be able to go back and be available for other groups without anyone abusing the loot system to constantly run the same Turn over and over until everyone either gets an oil, sand, etc. or until the gear they need finally appears. The " RNG wall" is still there to prevent most people from getting everything they want in a few weeks, but the option is also there to go back to help FC/LS members.

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Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

Locking the ability to roll on loot to a user-account's first clear of the week, while offering unlimited access throughout the week is a viable solution.

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Like this, basically.

I am not sure what is the big deal with lockout... I don't have a static and I do t6-8 completely in pug just fine and I see training group for them come up in pf all the time.

I've been playing FFXIV:ARR (2.0) since early access. Been wondering why no one else has brought this up, yet.
During that time I saw many static groups (and FCs) rise and fall. The motivation to beat Coil slowly fades as people's RL schedules don't fit the raiding times anymore.

I was part of like 6 different static parties until I finally decided to set up my own. But the problem stayed: Each week I see myself confronted with the question where I get replacements for people whose working schedules suddenly changed (happens particularly often when playing with shift workers; excluding them even if I like playing with them just for the sake of progression isn't really an option). There have also been some RL emergencies where people just couldn't show up for raid.

The aforementioned suggestion to approach the CT-loot-system would solve a lot of these issues: While some posters here may not agree with the item lockout CT currently has (after winning loot you are locked out), SE might adjust it so you get locked out regardless if you roll or not.
This solution wouldn't even touch the issue of selling runs in the second coil, because the RNG decides what you get (e.g. you can't run T6 until you finally see those melee earrings).
It also makes it a lot easier to help people within a FC to help each other (pros: everyone gets to raid, no matter who shows up (if you don't mind spending time helping others, that is); cons: groups might progress faster than intended, BUT the RNG still guarantees a slow pace, so you don't have BiS after a few weeks). This simple change would end a lot of drama that is common these days.


TL;DR:

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

The actual lockout system does lock me out. But not after the kill. It do it already before I can try it.

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requested solution: change coil's weekly lockout to a system where you can't get loot in coil after seeing something drop this week

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Do you mind linking or telling me where they answered this particular issue? I honestly don't remember when/where they specifically "closed" the issue.

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http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ekly_lockouts/

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Dude: I would like to participate with my other jobs even after having cleared the content.
Yoshida: Do you mean as a helper?
In that instance, my worry is the breaking down of the hierachy when players who are unable to clear content overly rely on those who can and begin getting powerful items. Though I also understand that this concern is purely from a management and development point of view. This is a hard question to answer and is why we've decided to nerf contents incrementally.

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TLDR, if we remove lock outs, people will get carried. We don't want that.

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Originally Posted by ElyonCherry

The aforementioned suggestion to approach the CT-loot-system would solve a lot of these issues: While some posters here may not agree with the item lockout CT currently has (after winning loot you are locked out), SE might adjust it so you get locked out regardless if you roll or not.
This solution wouldn't even touch the issue of selling runs in the second coil, because the RNG decides what you get (e.g. you can't run T6 until you finally see those melee earrings).

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I would go one step further. Having just one member who has cleared the turn prevents everyone else from looting.

And add flashy warnings that there will be no loot, title or whatnot to avoid another type of drama.

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Originally Posted by ElyonCherry

It also makes it a lot easier to help people within a FC to help each other (pros: everyone gets to raid, no matter who shows up (if you don't mind spending time helping others, that is); cons: groups might progress faster than intended, BUT the RNG still guarantees a slow pace, so you don't have BiS after a few weeks).

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I also think that this would be the best solution because summer is coming and people won't come to raids. Obviously there will be people abusing this lockout system like selling T6-T9 but I don't think that most people can afford this way of being carried through Coil. There will also be people helping or "carrying" their FC-members through Coil. But how often would this happen? Most people can't / don't want to carry their maties through Coil and ruin their game experience.
So please add the CT-lockout system to the 2nd Coil so that more static groups can survive summer!

I'm agree, this lockout system just create problems without really bringing something that a lot lock out couldn't.
Since 1 month, my static have schedule problems due to people having jobs. We should make 2 run/week but, we're stuck at 6/8 people (the 2 missing are often different from a day to an other). So: We can't ask 2 people of the FC to help us cause
-They've a static and can't have their run locked for the week.
-If we make the run, we can't go back to help our missing members.

So for one month now, we've 6 people log on to make a run that never happens because the system don't allow them to do so without a ton of problems. Really a great work there...

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Do you mind linking or telling me where they answered this particular issue? I honestly don't remember when/where they specifically "closed" the issue.

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http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ekly_lockouts/

As a side note, I would also REALLY like to be able to do them in any order after you have beaten them once. I have a static that I do T6/7 with currently (that can't beat 8), but I have beaten 8 and would love to got more practice on it without it locking me out of T6/7 for trying.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

With the various ways being added for Unidentified Allagan Tomestones, Sands of Time, and Oils of Time to be acquired outside of coil, they don't really serve the purpose of your argument anymore.

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SE hasn't mentioned being able to acquire Unidentified Allagan Tomestones from any source other then C2T2.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

The only workaround to playing with FC members who already have their downs for the week is alt's.

A couple people from my static are helping other people in our FC on their alts with their clears after they're done with ours.

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players with an Entry level subscription can't do this.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

SE hasn't mentioned being able to acquire Unidentified Allagan Tomestones from any source other then C2T2.






players with an Entry level subscription can't do this.

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sands/oils will be available from hunt

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Originally Posted by QuCont

I would go one step further. Having just one member who has cleared the turn prevents everyone else from looting.

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this is an idea that can work. We could add that if you are one or at most two people loot appears but those people can not roll. If people are more than two loot does not appear. In this way you can avoid the carry of the people, and the static are still able to fix this one or two spot missing to raid.

Perhaps they could implement a modified version of the CT loot lockout. Once a player wins a piece of loot, he is flagged by the system and has 5 minutes to roll and win additional pieces of loot from that turn. This allows players to obtain more than one piece of loot for each turn each week, while locking out the loot in subsequent runs of the same turn for that player. It maintains the current state of gear progression for the people who are running coil, but allows for players to run the turns again with their friends who may not be in the same static.

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Dude: I would like to participate with my other jobs even after having cleared the content.
Yoshida: Do you mean as a helper?
In that instance, my worry is the breaking down of the hierachy when players who are unable to clear content overly rely on those who can and begin getting powerful items. Though I also understand that this concern is purely from a management and development point of view. This is a hard question to answer and is why we've decided to nerf contents incrementally.
TLDR, if we remove lock outs, people will get carried. We don't want that.

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Terrible reasoning. This basically boils down to "We don't want to give you the chance to help your friends because our gating is working very effectively at holding them back. They might actually get some loot if we change the lockout! We can't have that happening!"

Aside from how obviously detrimental this is to building a solid community, It's basically a layer of gating on top of something that's already heavily gated. Heard you like gating? Well we've gated the gates for you. Unfortunately SE's morbid fear of people actually accomplishing things in game comes before us players having reasonable access to content we've paid for.

As it turns out that strategy isn't that effective either, people are frustrated with coil to the point where they've either stopped running it, or have quit the game altogether. The lockout needs a major rethink so SE can start putting the MMO back into this RPG.

So how do you propose we stop people who clearly aren't able to clear the content themselves from obtaining gears that they don't deserve?

Brutal Coil be the standard
Easy Coil be the lower version

Let's take Third Coil of Bahamuat; Brutal drops i135 gear and is tough, 100% guaranteed loot, weekly lockout. Normal version drops i120 gear, 20% chance to drop gear, easier and no lockout. Seems like a fair way to look at it.

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So how do you propose we stop people who clearly aren't able to clear the content themselves from obtaining gears that they don't deserve?

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Well, people will be selling these runs soon enough anyway, and I think some groups do already. It's a non-issue if the concern is being carried. Yoshi has tricked people into thinking that the lockout is for the players good, when in reality it's part of their business model.

I'd much rather be in an active FC/LS who takes time to run their members through the ropes of encounters than simply pay a group for the clear. "Carry" isn't a dirty word, much less so than "paid carry", and it's a very healthy thing for FC's and LS's to do if they want to retain members. As it stands at the moment, we don't have anything remotely resembling this for coil2, and it's lousy.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

So how do you propose we stop people who clearly aren't able to clear the content themselves from obtaining gears that they don't deserve?

Brutal Coil be the standard
Easy Coil be the lower version

Let's take Third Coil of Bahamuat; Brutal drops i135 gear and is tough, 100% guaranteed loot, weekly lockout. Normal version drops i120 gear, 20% chance to drop gear, easier and no lockout. Seems like a fair way to look at it.

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I'm not sure where the concept of deserve comes from to be honest when talking about Coil gear.

I would understand if it prepped you for some higher tier raid content right off the bat that the gear was tuned for, but realistically you're ending up with i110 gear and an i115 weapon for 6 months of Brayflox farm and maybe a Halitali hard? Sure it makes current coil easier as you gear through but those turns are tuned to be cleared in the high i90-i100 range, which you'll soon be able to get without entering coil at all.

Don't take that statement as me condoning carries because i'm sure someone will read like 2/3rds of this post and immediately jump to that. It's just an observation really, considering that the next set of tomes gear that will come out with Third Coil of Bahamut will most likely obsolete it anyway (or come close) as such was the case with the previous coil.

While i wouldn't be opposed to two forms of coil one with no lockout and one with I'm not sure why it needs to be all that complicated to begin with, the bar for gating gear in any MMO should always be the difficulty of the content not the difficulty of allowing people to play said content, the idea that the hardest part of SCoB is making a static is ludicrous.

I personally felt that 1.23's Garuda loot system was probably the best implementation of a non-lockout, non-fury inducing RNG that the game has used so far. A mix of RNG for loot drop in the chest in addition to guaranteed tokens for each person to eventually buy the same rewards via NPC. This not only gave you the chance for instant gratification (RNG drop) but a reason to repeat the instance should you not see certain items EVER (See: Tanaka RNG) because you could eventually buy them given enough time / attempts.

Do the majority of posters who are so afraid of people being carried feel the battle team is so inept that they wouldn't be unable to create challenging content that would prevent such measures?

If so i would wager that's a much larger issue at hand for the longevity of this MMO.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Well, people will be selling these runs soon enough anyway, and I think some groups do already

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That is correct. Without jeopardizing my friendship with a mate of mine, I can confirm people are already selling SCoB runs and have seen in writing the Tells that they have bought a carry/run from some active FC's whose members are already geared enough/or have enough members to sell the carries.

In saying this, I'm originally from Aion, where'd you see shouts in LFG all the time from groups farming an instance, selling the loot from the Boss kills. It was like a service and how many active Legions made a living.

I'm just not sure, for FFXIV, if we should still be using the same argument about the dangers of unlocking Coil with the threat of sell carries becauseee...... it's. already. happening....

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That is correct. Without jeopardizing my friendship with a mate of mine, I can confirm people are already selling SCoB runs and have seen in writing the Tells that they have bought a carry/run from some active FC's whose members are already geared enough/or have enough members to sell the carries.

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Yeah so this is already taking place, which of the two evils is lesser then?
- Paying for a carry from a group who doesn't care about you long term. You learn nothing from the fight.
- Working with FC/LS mates who are willing to teach the content and have shared long terms goals. Eventually you might even help people clear the content yourself!

It's such a no-brainer that it's ridiculous.

Its all cosmetic, the disparity in ilvl is whats eating at people.

Hopefully these new methods of obtaining sands/oil will help ease that pain because if it were truly were about doing the content itself you would try a little bit harder your own group and do it.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

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You're asking the wrong person, sorry. My mate and I don't advocate to pay for a carry because it's a waste of gil - the content will eventually become old and anyways, we're on a JP server. Our lag isn't as terrible as some people's so we don't have the same issues as the poor ones who can't clear some content.

What I am a bit confused is when people note that if you unlock SCoB it will open the floodgates to encourage sells ... when in fact it IS already happening. THAT was my whole point.

tl;dr - I need to take a course in putting my point across more clearly and there should be more substantial arguments other than "this will encourage sell carries" for not unlocking it

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

You're asking the wrong person, sorry. My mate and I don't advocate to pay for a carry because it's a waste of gil - the content will eventually become old and anyways, we're on a JP server. Our lag isn't as terrible as some people's so we don't have the same issues as the poor ones who can't clear some content.

What I am a bit confused is when people note that if you unlock SCoB it will open the floodgates to encourage sells ... when in fact it IS already happening. THAT was my whole point.

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No no, I was just asking a rhetorical question to the thread as a whole. Not implying anything at all, we're both in agreement that the "carry" argument is a pretty silly reason for not opening up coil more.

Mainly saying that given the option, the vast majority of players would rather work on this content with FC/LS members (sans lockout) rather than pay randoms to carry them.

Yes sells are happening but at the rate of 1 sell per group per week. The flood gates opening would not be the ability to sell but the rate at which it would happen. All of SCoB takes about an hour to complete so in a week those same dedicated groups could go from 1 sell per week to 35, running 5 sells per day. I don't know about you but a 3500% increase in the amount of gear becoming available per week sounds like a pretty substantial increase.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

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Understood and my apologies! ><;

Yes please, I too would like to see more substantial reasons.

If even the reason of "the lock exists so as to prolong the content, else if it was available without a lock-out, people would burn through it" might be moot now as well....? Because apparently people are refusing to run Coil(?) due to the fact they can't access it/are having issues finding a steady group to clear it - and those said people see that this is the pattern for all future content so they un-sub - then where do we go from here?

On a side note, SE could just throw us more amazing horsey mounts as a distraction and we can forget allllll this deep Coil thinking /sarcasm

no seriously. I want a horsey mount ;)

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Originally Posted by Archulak

Yes sells are happening but at the rate of 1 sell per group per week. The flood gates opening would not be the ability to sell but the rate at which it would happen. All of SCoB takes about an hour to complete so in a week those same dedicated groups could go from 1 sell per week to 35, running 5 sells per day. I don't know about you but a 3500% increase in the amount of gear becoming available per week sounds like a pretty substantial increase.

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It's a catch 22. You open up the lockout and more people would be able to participate in coil through normal means, which would be a fantastic thing, but more people would undoubtedly sell carries. Again though, I'm not sure why this is detrimental apart from the fact that it screws with SE's planned gating and progression. It's better than losing players directly and indirectly because of the lockout, which has happened in spades. Regardless, mercing content has been a part of MMO's since day dot, it's common in this game too, and undoubtedly when the lockout gets removed from coil2 it will happen there too. Sure some chumps might get powerful gear they haven't truly "earnt" (that is debatable if they're able to pay for a carry), but they're only hurting themselves really by not using the content to develop their skills.

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If even the reason of "the lock exists so as to prolong the content, else if it was available without a lock-out, people would burn through it" might be moot now as well....? Because apparently people are refusing to run Coil(?) due to the fact they can't access it/are having issues finding a steady group to clear it - and those said people see that this is the pattern for all future content so they un-sub - then where do we go from here?

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Exactly my situation, after a few runs of T6, I've chosen to not touch Coil2 with a ten foot pole because of the trial of finding a decent, reliable static. Not worth it.