Market Wards vs AH

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

If I could get my product in about an hour after I press buy, malls would die too.

The problem is market wards are slower then AH by order of times it takes to microwave your dinner.

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While I would be right there with you if that could be archived there is one good reason why Malls and Stores would keep on going. Women.

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Yeah... other stores like Borders and Barnes & Noble. Do they happen to sell newspapers? Because that would make me "lol" "irl"...

Having a 'sandbox'-type economy is a good idea on paper, but after it is implemented people will then start to gather towards a central economic hub (i.e. the zone with the best things going for it... in this case, Uld'ah). This usually happens anyway later down the road due to new content and zones. But, the problem with the Retainer system is that you can't access the game economy if people are not selling in your city, which inevitably leads to the evacuation of pretty much everything that isn't the 'Economic Hub'. Did I mention all this content just got figuratively thrown away? :(

Also, imagine what this would be like for new players now coming into the game... if their town (i.e. Gridania) has no one playing in it, they wouldn't have an economy to buy from, and they also might think that not so many players play the game. Etc.

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Well FF11 has that problem too, but the wards presents a problem that retainers can't be in two places at once. If FF14 ever gets successful enough to have that situation, then yes. But it's a doom idea Market Wards, because if a population of 2000-3000, need 8-12 retainers to cover the zones, then you would have over tens of thousands of retainers burdening the system.

I don't even want to think about a MMO to where I have to managed my equipment and items in that mess.

Not to mention you would have retainers names called Puppiesaresupercute1123 due to the unique name problem:D

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Well FF11 has that problem too, but the wards presents a problem that retainers can't be in two places at once. If FF14 ever gets successful enough to have that situation, then yes.

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Not needed. All we need is a centralized search system. As I said many times, there's not even one function of an AH that cannot be implemented in the market wards.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not needed. All we need is a centralized search system. As I said many times, there's not even one function of an AH that cannot be implemented in the market wards.

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Centralized search system doesn't make retainers disappear(then it would be called an AH). You would still need to find a way to that retainer.

Not to mention a centralized search system would be even more problematic in the fact that why do you even have market ward zones in the first place. Why not have a "teleport market wards" function on your menu...

Oh great... it's the same problem all over complicated imitation of an AH with 20x the complexity.

Now that you mention it, if the PS3 release does bring in alot of players that are willing to stay, this could lead to some nasty congestion and server demand issues down the road

Maybe if they could somehow creatively utilize towns/hamlets/outdoor bazaars to ease the congestion, and at worst maybe place a hidden cap on the number of retainers the game will allow in a general area

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Maybe if they could somehow creatively utilize towns/hamlets/outdoor bazaars to ease the congestion, and at worst maybe place a hidden cap on the number of retainers the game will allow in a general area

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That's already in place... One of the problems of market wards. Jamming yourself to get a lower tax rate on a zone like DoW can prove to be futile.

Market wards are an ugly beast in terms of implementation.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Centralized search system doesn't make retainers disappear(then it would be called an AH). You would still need to find a way to that retainer.

Not to mention a centralized search system would be even more problematic in the fact that why do you even have market ward zones in the first place. Why not have a "teleport market wards" function on your menu...

Oh great... it's the same problem all over complicated imitation of an AH with 20x the complexity.

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Again, there's no need. You can implement a direct consignment system. The name of the system isn't important. What matters is that is functional.
Market wards are functional, and every single feature of an AH can be implemented into it. Keyword search, price history, centralized search, direct delivery.

It's not necessary more complicated than an AH, because besides the graphical interface, it's still a database, and works pretty much in the same way.

The advantage of doing that instead of completely scrapping the system and making a new one are twofold: Improving an existing system is less demanding, resources-wise, than making a completely new one. And you still keep the unique features of market wards for those that enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The advantage of doing that instead of completely scrapping the system and making a new one are twofold: Improving an existing system is less demanding, resources-wise, than making a completely new one. And you still keep the unique features of market wards for those that enjoy them.

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Not when it's the retainer/market ward system.

Again the carrying bucket on the head analogy. Why try to perfect it, when it's easier to carry it with your hands.

A classic AH is the far far better solution both short and long term. You're just arguing for a pet like system.

Wow...21 pages! And yes, I just read my way through most of it.

Anyway, this is slowly sliding into the realm of name-calling. Let's try to get back on topic.

I think everyone can agree that the current Market Ward system AS IT IS CURRENTLY IMPLEMENTED is flawed.
I would also think that everyone can agree that an Auction House system has a long history to support it.
This DOES NOT mean that it is the BEST solution, just one that has worked in the past. Both methods have their merits and their problems.

Let's break this down some:
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AH v MW (in this order simply because it is in order alphabetically, blame the engineer in me)

AH Pros:
-Search, locate, AND buy in one step. (aka, instant gratification)
-Can be implemented to be "universal" (defined below) or inividual
-Bidding can get items cheaper than "retail value" (defined below)

AH Cons:
-Instant search and locate causes shopping "tunnel vision" (will define below)

MW Pros:
-Current implementation has search and locate (although it is clunky)
-Allows players to "stumble" upon hidden deals/goods, finding things they normally might not be searching for

MW Cons:
-Currenly is implemented by city (unique wards to each town)
-Requries hunting down the seller (can be time consuming depending on load times and performance)


DEFINITIONS:
"universal" implementation - on single implemntation across all towns (eveyone shops the same listing no matter where they are)
"retail value" - what the general game population deems the acceptable value for an item
"tunnel vision" - when shopping you only find what you are looking for because you are unable to "run across" other items without INTENTIONALLY looking for other random items.
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As you can see, both systems have their problems. Thing thing to do is look at both systems and see if a hybrid could be made that would run better. Take the good from both and put it together, not just bash one or the other.

Below is how I would like to see Market Wards implemented (this is still far from a perfect combination):
-Make the wards "universal". This way, when I go to one ward, I go to that ward in ALL the cities.
-Make the wards bigger. I do not know how much of the ward's area design is due to server side load requirements and how much is an artifact from the previous dev team's ideas. (more on this idea below)
-Allow searching of the wards from ANYWHERE in the ward, not just by the doors. I do not know why it was implemented this way, it may have just been easier to do since there was alreay a menu entry activation by approaching the doors (the option to exit the wards). Hopefully it was just a bandage and not meant as the full fix.
-Prevent retainers from spawing in the MIDDLE of the walkway. Maybe just line them up along the edges or put long rows of small stalls (similar to real-world flea markets). This would require making the wards bigger, though, but that already needs to be done.

Now, I do not know if this is fully possible, but here is what I would personally like to see:
1.) make each ward a ring with the retainers forced to the edges. The total length (nominal circumference) would need to be at least 3-4 times the current market ward lenght, but the width could easily remain the same.
2.) stack the wards all in one instance. The game already has some form of load limitation going on, so client-side should be able to handle it since there will be a floor between each level. (why do you think you have sucn a long lead-in to LL or Grid, or have to walk AROUND the main gate in Uld?)
3.) in each of the cardinal directions put a set of stairs with a triple switch-back. (this block line-of-sight between wards to reduce load for the client)
4.) with each set of stairs, also put an elevator to the other wards. (they already have elevators in LL and Uld, so implementation is there and it works rather quickly)
5.) allow ward searching from anywhere within the ward (just add the option in the Menu from the moment the player enters, no have it keyed by being near a door).

What this would allow:
-Players would be able to "instant search" at all times (no walking back and forth, no need for paper/pencil/notepad/etc)
-For those who prefer the "immersion" the game allows, you can walk up and down the stairs, others could just jump to the ward they need
-By having it all in one zone, there is no "the Uld wards are better than the LL wards". This also has the benefit of reducing the number of retainers necessary for sellers since you do not need one in each city)

The problems:
-Still requires waking to the seller (I do not think there is any way around this in a MW style system) and the walk might be a bit farther
-This would not be capable of reducing the number of retainers unless a bank or housing storage system was implemented as well
-A whole multi-level zone would now have to be loaded (although it should not be too bad as long as there is not a long line of sight).
-How to implement it into the "fluff" of the world.


As for an Auction House, I would personally like to see a TRUE Auction House set up. It would be possible to have it run along-side the Market Ward system without interfering...but only if there is no "instant buy" option. Require it to be an AUCTION, not just a buy/resell shop interface.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Not when it's the retainer/market ward system.

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You're somehow assuming that the market wards system is somehow incredibly more complex server wise than an AH. There's absolutely no solid reason to believe it is.

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Again the carrying bucket on the head analogy. Why try to perfect it, when it's easier to carry it with your hands.

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I understand what you're trying to say, but you're using a very, very wrong analogy :D
Millions of people carry weights on their head because, once you learned to balance them, it puts a lot less strain on your muscles and radically reduce fatigue :D

It's actually very much appropriate. You believe carrying a bucket on your head to be such a terrible idea, too bad it isn't. It's good for your body.

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A classic AH is the far far better solution both short and long term. You're just arguing for a pet like system.

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Not really. I'm arguing for a system that allows for more features.

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Originally Posted by Artius

-Still requires waking to the seller (I do not think there is any way around this in a MW style system) and the walk might be a bit farther

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Not necessarily. A direct delivery service can be implemented alongside the centralized search you suggest, leaving the "walking to retainer" for those people that enjoy windows shopping and want to preview an item prior to implementation.

I would also addthe possibility to click on a item in the bazar (as a customer) and have that item displayed on the retainer instead of the one he's currently wearing, in order to improve the "preview" function when multiple items of the same type are for sale.

Other than that, I agree with most you said. I have been arguing most of it myself for a while.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not necessarily. A direct delivery service can be implemented alongside the centralized search you suggest, leaving the "walking to retainer" for those people that enjoy windows shopping and want to preview an item prior to implementation.

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I could see the MW having a centeral desk that you could buy stuff from/sell stuff to...but for a nominal fee for the instant service (think of it like the shipping costs...just make it a percentage rather than a flat rate). Then you could have AH instant-buy along with MW browsing.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not necessarily. A direct delivery service can be implemented alongside the centralized search you suggest, leaving the "walking to retainer" for those people that enjoy windows shopping and want to preview an item prior to implementation.

I would also addthe possibility to click on a item in the bazar (as a customer) and have that item displayed on the retainer instead of the one he's currently wearing, in order to improve the "preview" function when multiple items of the same type are for sale.

Other than that, I agree with most you said. I have been arguing most of it myself for a while.

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that's basically eliminating the retainer part of the system...which then becomes an AH...so again, the AH is the shorter path.

What you are suggesting is doing 1+1+1+1 instead of simply writing 4.

The more patches or as you call it features you stick in, the more it devalues it under layers of complexity.

I can do the same thing with a standard AH, by simply having an AH menu on your menu screen, and then have a CG scene.

It's semantics again. You are proposing we installed dos then windows98 then windows XP then windows Vista then windows 7. For the sake of preserving your settings. When I have a copy of windows 7 right here. Through everything, the things you are preserving are lost anyway.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

that's basically eliminating the retainer part of the system...which then becomes an AH

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And what's the problem about that, exactly?

By the way. I'm eliminating nothing. I'm giving players the *option* to bypass it, if they want to, without eliminating the *option* to windows shop if one wants to.

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the AH is the shorter path.

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Creating a completely new system doesn't sound one bit like the "shorter" path as opposed to adding features to an existing one.

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It's semantics again. You are proposing we installed dos then windows98 then windows XP then windows Vista then windows 7. For the sake of preserving your settings. When I have a copy of windows 7 right here. Through everything, the things you are preserving are lost anyway.

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Eh no. The problem is that you do not have a copy of windows 7. You still have to buy (read: devise, code, implement, test) your copy of windows 7. What I'm proposing is to install the update from Windows Vista to Windows 7. It costs less and it doesn't force you to format your PC.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

that's basically eliminating the retainer part of the system...which then becomes an AH...so again, the AH is the shorter path.

What you are suggesting is doing 1+1+1+1 instead of simply writing 4.

The more patches or as you call it features you stick in, the more it devalues it under layers of complexity.

I can do the same thing with a standard AH, by simply having an AH menu on your menu screen, and then have a CG scene.

It's semantics again. You are proposing we installed dos then windows98 then windows XP then windows Vista then windows 7. For the sake of preserving your settings. When I have a copy of windows 7 right here. Through everything, the things you are preserving are lost anyway.

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It's not as simple as you put it. What it would do is allow people the AH system IF THEY WANT IT, but put it at a price for the convenience.

For those who enjoy the shopping experience (and some people DO enjoy it), you can still wander around.

If you ONLY used the instant buy system, then, yes, you are essentially eliminating the retainers. However, unless the overwhelming majority of the population went to using the "buy it now for a markup" option, there is still an argument for a MW system.

--edited for spelling...I cannot type sometimes--

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Originally Posted by Artius

It's not as simple as you put it. What it would do is allow people the AH system IF THEY WANT IT, but put it at a price for the convenience.

For those who enjoy the shopping experience (and some people DO enjoy it), you can still wander around.

If you ONLY used the instant buy system, then, yes, you are essentially eliminating the retainers. However, unless the overwhelming majority of the population went to using the "buy it now for a markup" option, there is still an argument for a MW system.

--edited for spelling...I cannot type sometimes--

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Sounds like FFXI where people leave mules afk with bazaars open to avoid the AH tax. I don't see why that wouldn't work in this game. Just add an AH so people who want to buy something conveniently can do so while others who enjoy shopping around for bargains can continue to use the market wards.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Sounds like FFXI where people leave mules afk with bazaars open to avoid the AH tax. I don't see why that wouldn't work in this game. Just add an AH so people who want to buy something conveniently can do so while others who enjoy shopping around for bargains can continue to use the market wards.

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This isn't very practical. Adding a separate AH would bring up one of the many flaws of FFXI's economy and that's fragmentation.

On the other hand, adding all the features of an AH (with or without usage fees) to the market wards keeps the economy focused in one place and one overall database, without forcing people to check two separate systems to find the best prices.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

This isn't very practical. Adding a separate AH would bring up one of the many flaws of FFXI's economy and that's fragmentation.

On the other hand, adding all the features of an AH (with or without usage fees) to the market wards keeps the economy focused in one place and one overall database, without forcing people to check two separate systems to find the best prices.

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As long as I'm not forced to use something as clunky as market wards and I can search for what I want and then buy it swiftly and hassle-free though the UI, I don't really care. I just don't want to have to search for my item, enter a separate zone with a loading screen, and physically walk to an NPC to buy a single item. It's extremely tedious, especially when looking for several items.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Sounds like FFXI where people leave mules afk with bazaars open to avoid the AH tax. I don't see why that wouldn't work in this game. Just add an AH so people who want to buy something conveniently can do so while others who enjoy shopping around for bargains can continue to use the market wards.

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Everything gets taxed equality except in the proper wards. No tax loopholes here, and no mail system as well. Basically FF14, are money nazis. They want all money to go through the system.

It's viable to go that route. Make an AH server wide system. Then have retainers moved to a moogle house and sent to wards(that are placed via automatically client side and not server side to prevent bandwidth hogging) aka fancy graphics to sell at a much lower tax rate.

All this search the wards nonsense, zone nonsense, retainer cap nonsense, etc are instantly eradicated.

But some people want things overcomplicated for the sake of over complication.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

As long as I'm not forced to use something as clunky as market wards and I can search for what I want and then buy it swiftly and hassle-free though the UI, I don't really care. I just don't want to have to search for my item, enter a separate zone with a loading screen, and physically walk to an NPC to buy a single item. It's extremely tedious, especially when looking for several items.

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That's the whole point. Giving people the option to use the system they enjoy the most (or both) without having to waste development resources to scrap a system and make a new one from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Smashington

Market Wards allow players to "Seek Items" making it superior to an AH.

The only thing mising is a "Seeking Item" search window, which you could use to search what items retainers are auto-buying before you sit down to craft.

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I fully agree with this. I think that the dev team should definitely be looking to expand the 'seeking items' feature of the bazaars.

As of right now, where we are able to search all market wards and see what people are selling, the seeking item feature is useless because no one is going to be looking at random bazaars. However, if it was changed so there was an organized window showing who's seeking what, it would really push market wards above the AH.

On the other topics, I am not having a huge problem with not having a search history. While part of me misses mindlessly just putting items up on the AH at the search history price, I feel like the system we have now is more flexible in what prices it is allowing.

If the item I'm trying to sell has a lot of sellers, I can see their prices and try to get to a low point, and if in a day it doesn't sell, I can keep lowering it.

And in the other case, if there is no sellers, you can set the price at what you want and see if people bite. Giving a more realistic feel of supply and demand. And again if it doesn't sell just lower it.

You currently get 20 selling spots, which is more than I can keep filled up, and when we get more retainers that will increase more, so keeping things up and lowing the price isn't any strain on spots.

There has been so much great progress with the bazaar system since it first started as a chaotic mess, I think it would be odd to just completely go in a different direction when it has, for the most part, been working fine from my point of view.

I do not see how the wards are superior. Despite what ever one saying i have yet to see one positive side at all to the system.

i like the market wards, i am sure they will get tweaked some more but in general i like em.
i can find what i am searching for and i can also kill time walking around looking at the goods.

What i really would like is a post office so you can send cash and items to others like in FFXI

Lets not forget the another reason why the Market Wards were chosen by SE and not a normal Auction House..

Auction House botting. Yes, there are auction house bots. They sit in that one single place and bid items at low prices waiting to snag that one item that person wanted to sell for cheap. If it wasn't that, then they would just purchase all of a specific item and raise the price.

I haven't seen this brought up once in this entire 23 pages of discussion. I think this is really one of the main reasons SE has us running around to get our merchandise. Think about it. You cannot in no way shape or form. Code a bot to search and item in the wards, choose the ward, then go to that person with the star on there head to purchase it in its current form.

On top of that. Why do people feel the need to have price histories? That is a large contributor to creating inflation in the economy. Put that item up for what you feel its worth. Their is always checking to see if that item is being sold by someone else and adjusting the your selling price.

I'm all for implementing more features to the wards. But if they create single location where we can just stand there, browse, purchase, and receive the item, it will cause eventually cause rmt to get hold of the economy once again. As well as create huge inflations. This would cause a huge problem in a game where gil is abundant.

So I'm probably going to repeat several things due to not having 23 pages of context, but I like the idea behind the market wards. That being said, they definitely need a bit of work in my opinion.

First off, people have been complaining left and right about "copy-pasted terrain", and yet there is no greater offender than the market wards themselves. What we have right now are closed off segments that lack variety on everything save for what kind of floorboards they use, and I think this is a pretty big deal in the immersion department. When I'm in the southern islands in Limsa, it should be an open-air marketplace with maybe a stone fountain in a section, and outcrops from which I can see birds, ships, the sky or the ocean. When at the lotus gardens in Gridania, I should see trees over the different stands and maybe some small animals or something wandering around the ground. I'm not saying stick every retainer in one huge zone, as that would be a lag/dev nightmare, but redesigning the zones themselves might make people a bit more comfortable with shopping there.

Fix the aesthetics of the area, and make people WANT to go there.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Above.

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Hehe, yeah, I agree a bit, here. The lack of differentiation between different wards didn't bother me too much.. though it would of course be nice, but I was disappointed to discover Ul'dah at least wasn't open air. Gridania's have a nice style going on, though, I think..

But heck yes, I think it'd be lovely if the individual wards were visually different on some level.

I learned how the Market Wards worked the last day the server was up. My fifth day playing the game.
I have to say I thought they were pretty cool and just as effective as an ah, with more life involved. Maybe there can be minor tweaks to make it up to par and better.

Hey guys, there's this really awesome forum feature that I recently discovered called a "search function".

With it, I was able to pull up a thread that has been active for some time on a relevant topic(namely this one), without having to create another thread about it and thus taking up extra forum space(the other 10 new ones). Technology's awesome. :)

Seriously though, I have an idea that may seem a bit outlandish, but hear me out.

As I mentioned in an earlier post regarding the MW, I appreciate the idea, however upon further thought, I've come to the conclusion that the MW as I envisioned them were very much dependent on the implementation of companies, and without said companies, the MW idea kind of fizzled out for me.

What I thought of was that once the devs implement companies, they could allocate the Market Wards zones(after some visual sprucing up I mentioned before) to be designated zones for company housing. Each company would be able to promote themselves and their own wares in game using a variety of methods, and within or outside of a company's housing, they would have "company retainers" open up shop to sell whatever items the company deigns to create.

This of course could be supplemented by an external AH that might be open only to certain types of items(for example no crafting materials) that would behave like actual auction houses.

I think this would serve to create a huge sense of community and competition, as well as really give crafters(which I am not) an even bigger role in the game.