Evolved BRD ?

My biggest problem with its design is similar to (one of my) current issue(s) with current smn:
Even if the game doesn't force you into pressing song A then song B then song C, if you're locked out of repeating a song before playing the 3 songs, and you have to push through songs as fast as possible for dps, the order freedom doesn't matter, it'll still feel like a set rotation and the utility choice will be a second thought when compared to pushing dps.

Exactly, and we already got the problem that the healer role isn't doing enough support - and players have been DPS-pilled by now, see all the complaints about only the DPS-side of the White Mage shown at Fanfest, as if the DPS-side of a healer ought to be the important part. (Granted if the devs ever manage to figure out how to play any other MMO and hence learn how to make healers actually want to or have to heal, that'd be really great, at some point they ought to do that...)

I mean I personally don't truly like Bard being a hybrid archer/songmaster. Like I said above, I love old Bard implementations like in EQ1 or the various classes like it in DAoC, that spent the vast vast majority of their gameplay weaving songs. But it's what we have, and being hybrid I kinda like this idea. You have songs you're somewhat flexible in using, and those in turn unlock archery stuff, which you want to go through in a full "cycle", so you can't eternally sit on your songs, either.

For me, Bard is one of the better Evolved Mode examples so far.

However, I still wish they clarified Bard’s role more clearly, and maybe Physical Ranged as a role in general.

I see Bard as closer to a support job than a pure damage job. Because of that, I would have liked Bard to have something like a resurrection or revive, similar to Red Mage and Summoner.

I also think Bard’s identity should focus more on its songs.

If Bard is meant to be the support-style Physical Ranged job, then I think its gameplay should lean harder into songs, party support, and utility, rather than only damage.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

This bard uses a bow, so the bow play still needs to matter. It's still a DPS. This is not a bard you can just sit back, and passively play instruments while everyone else does the work. If BRD isn't supporty enough, there always the healer role.

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You are trying to talk down to the wrong person. I play BRD because of the bow. BRD since its inception in this game has been a support, remove the support and you are removing what makes BRD. You want to go play an archer? The option is right there to take the job stone off and go play without the support aspects. And healers aren't supports, they are HEALERS. The phys ranged role up until ShB was the support role, the only exception to this is MCH, which still gets multiple support buttons. Evolved BRD is not a support. Its a DPS with support nonsense tacked onto it. That's not what the role has been for the games lifespan, and that's not what BRD has been. Acting like it is randomly okay for BRD to lose access to direct supportive tools and saying "Go play healer" means you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes the job, and the entire PRanged role for the majority of people who play it. I have thousands of hours on BRD alone, have been playing it for 7 years. Damage has never been the focal point of the job and it never should be.

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Originally Posted by StarryVera

I have thousands of hours on BRD alone, have been playing it for 7 years. Damage has never been the focal point of the job and it never should be.

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You played a different Bard than the rest of us, then. /shrug

And I don't disagree, but at the end of the day modern MMORPG communities (and with modern I mean anything from WoW release forward!) expect balance in role central function, which for the Bard in FF14, happens to be damage. Whether you achieve that damage independently or partially through augmenting the group is irrelevant unless the buffing ends up being a crucial - and hence failable - component of gameplay (see: dancer).

Now of course, one can fail to cycle Bard songs, don't get me wrong. But it's such a minor element. It ought to be bigger. Again like I said before, like the songweavers of old where 50%-90% of your time was cycling songs, not hitting other attacks. But that's just not what Bard, an evolution of Archer with some minor group buffs added, is. Especially in the context of game that has a solution to group buffs just passively from group composition effects already. Revenant in GW2 is significantly more "bard-y" than FF14 bard, and that's not even a bard!

I just miss the DoT procs. It and old Sidewinder gave dots more purpose and I had a lot of fun with the amount of procs you got from putting them on 2-3 enemies.

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Originally Posted by Roda

My biggest problem with its design is similar to (one of my) current issue(s) with current smn:
Even if the game doesn't force you into pressing song A then song B then song C, if you're locked out of repeating a song before playing the 3 songs, and you have to push through songs as fast as possible for dps, the order freedom doesn't matter, it'll still feel like a set rotation and the utility choice will be a second thought when compared to pushing dps.

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Just to point out, no you don't. With no buff windows, the only thing that matters for DPS is to not overcap on resources, as long as you do that, your DPS will not suffer. The only exception is towards the end of the fight where you should make sure you dump everything that uses a resource as a resource not spent when the enemy dies is lost damage.

So, assuming a fight starts off with max resources, you will likely start with a Wanderer's Volley to get that GCD rolling, then use a song, just to get that resource building up again. You are then free to do what you want, use the next song ASAP, use it slightly later if the buff is going to be beneficial, using the filler and Wanderer's Volley to pad the GCDs between them. All you need to do is use the next song before you cap again.

There is going to need to be a big shift in how players think about their playstyle and realise that you get no benefit to dumping all resources as quick as possible. That was the raid buff meta, we are in a new environment with new challenges, so we need new ways of thinking.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

You played a different Bard than the rest of us, then. /shrug

And I don't disagree, but at the end of the day modern MMORPG communities (and with modern I mean anything from WoW release forward!) expect balance in role central function, which for the Bard in FF14, happens to be damage. Whether you achieve that damage independently or partially through augmenting the group is irrelevant unless the buffing ends up being a crucial - and hence failable - component of gameplay (see: dancer).

Now of course, one can fail to cycle Bard songs, don't get me wrong. But it's such a minor element. It ought to be bigger. Again like I said before, like the songweavers of old where 50%-90% of your time was cycling songs, not hitting other attacks. But that's just not what Bard, an evolution of Archer with some minor group buffs added, is. Especially in the context of game that has a solution to group buffs just passively from group composition effects already. Revenant in GW2 is significantly more "bard-y" than FF14 bard, and that's not even a bard!

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Please don't include me in that "us" then.

I've played rphys since HW, and in spite of the dramatic shift in battle design in SHB that removed most of the resource management and party support the role brought, it's never been a role focused on personal damage, even though yes, it still remains a DPS role obviously and its personal damage constitutes the bulk of its contribution.

Rphys has always been distinguished by those specific aspects of its identity:
- RNG procs (until mch rng removal in SHB)
- Party mitigative support (until tanks started infringing on this grossly with crazy shit like shake if off, etc)
- Party resource support (until MP/TP support was axed in SHB)
- Party damage raid buffs, which stands true to this day

I also do keenly remember ShB actually trying to axe BRD's party damage support because they wanted their new job, DNC, to be the heavy dps raid buffer and have BRD stand somewhere in the middle of DNC and MCH. Well, with the uproar this change got, especially because the passive damage buffs behind the songs were removed, SE actually did one of its rare backpedals and brought back the damage buffs behind the songs, and then doubled down on the party buff damage by introducing a second raid buff in the form of Radiant in EW.

You're arguing against windmills because XIV has never had purely buffer jobs like you describe. That's not what people talk about.

Evolved mode is supposed to emphasize job identity, correct? To me Bard has three key things as its identity and I think only one is being served.

1) Support
Evolved does a great job of giving Bard meaningful support for the first time since either Stormblood or Heavensward. Movement speed and shields are extremely useful and the regen might be useful depending on how much incoming damage there is (this is not the first time Square has promised an increase in healing required. It has yet to happen)

2) Damage Over Time
Seemingly barely existent. Playing one of your songs gives a button that gives you one of your dots and then flips into the other one. That's it. This is not dot gameplay anymore than Gunbreaker's Sonic Break is. I could not tell on the UI where the dots were being tracked so I don't know if they overwrite each other, but if they don't then you simply press a button twice and don't worry about your dots for roughly another minute.

3) Random Procs
Completely gone. This has been Bard's core gameplay since 2.0. It's now completely removed for a 1-2-3 combo.

Overall I find myself feeling really mixed about Evolved Bard. I think that overall its an improvement over Endwalker and Dawntrail simply taking Shadowbringers Bard and stretching it out to last 2 minutes, but I would rather have an earlier version than this. Hopefully it sees some changes between now and release.

EDIT: Wanted to add that while "bowmage" in Heavensward was rightly disliked, Thrum of the Godsbow being our "ultimate attack" and having a cast time looked really nice. I'm glad that's there.

Interesting, to me the only unique aspect of current bard is ~constant party-wide buffs. That's it.