Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by Karkarov

Where in this story do you mentor jack? You don't ever once give any advice or say anything the other characters act on. You are just there to "agree with Wuk Lamat". The only time in the MSQ you get a chance to disagree with her, you are immediately overruled by the scions and told point blank... "We should do what Wuk Lamat want's, after all we are only here to support her."

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I don't have that recollection of the character at all. In fact, I would say Wuk Lamat's main flaw in the first half of the story is that she is an extremely passive character that you, the Scions, and Erenville (especially Erenville) to actually keep her on task. You need to lead around to accomplish anything, and her contributions are pretty minor (Thinking the festival is the important bit, and having a supporter during the trading questline).

Like Erenville's entire character for most of the first third of the story is 'Wuk Lamat wrangler.' She is portrayed as pretty seriously flawed early on and constantly goes to the WoL and has dialogue choices that amount to "I am unsure of how to do this" or "I lack confidence" and you basically get an (admittedly pretty basic) set of responses like 'Think about the people who depend on you' or whatever, or they do the thing where you silently talk and she goes 'oh that is good advice.'

If that didn't land for you, its fine, but I think its disingenuous to say 'There is literally no way you could interpret your character as having a mentorship relationship with this character' when the king *explicitly* asks you to have one. Like its not nothing, obviously, its literally not even subtext, its the literal text of the story.

I will say one other thing I do think is a legit problem with Wuk Lamat though, she gets way too much voiced screentime. I actually liked the voice actress, but even though most of the characters do contribute a lot all over the story, the fact that a lot of the moments where everyone is working together to solve a problem is unvoiced while the times where Wuk Lamat is having a moment are voiced does mean she is very 'over exposed' in this expansion.

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Huh, are you sure we are her mentor? Or did you mistype 'Cheerleading Slave' ? This 'mentor figure' is being used by Dawntrail defenders alot

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Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).

Are we gunna pretend that XIV was ever anything but the side characters basically acting as gentle tour guides through a linear story? Did you actually expect branching paths where you could fight to ensure Wuk Lamat doesn't get on the throne, or the WoL to break down what is clearly a good (even if you find her annoying, its hard to argue Wuk Lamat is a morally bad person) person who needs encouragement?

Like what are you actually expecting? If you think Wuk Lamat is annoying, that is valid (again, she has... way too much voiced screentime, its actually a bit absurd). But arguing the story construction sidelines us to being someone's beatstick and problem solver is actively stupid because that is what every expansion has been besides Endwalker. We do what Minfilia/Alphinauld/Aymeric/Hein/The Exarch says the plan is because they are the guys and gals with the plan, inspire some NPCs around us when they have doubts about their plans, impress some major characters with our power and resolve, beat the bad guys up, serve up the next expansion. Dawntrail gave us a different rationale for doing it, but its the same thing we always do, to the point its literally a running joke in the game our neck muscles are super strong because we just agree with people around us all the time.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I will note a lot of stories don't necessarily need the main protagonist. In Shadowbringers and Endwalker we are important and special, but I would say Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR would not be especially different if not for us. If we sat out many of the events would go rougly the same save for how our presence inspires others to act, which is exactly what happens in Dawntrail.

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I am so tired of hearing this same argument. Every time someone say they don't like the story, it's because "They're not the main character". You stated yourself that in Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR, the WoL did not play the main character role. Have you not stopped to ask yourself, if it has been done before, why were people okay with it then, and not with this? Almost everyone who finished Endwalker went through ARR, Heavensward, and Stormblood, did they only choose NOW to suddenly say the new story's bad? Can you at least read everyone's opinions before putting them all under the same blanket of "Not the main character"?

Personally, I'm fine with the WoL not being the main character like in Heavensward, but even then, Heavensward gave them SOMETHING to do. A reason to be where they were, a reason to do what they did. It also helped that Alphinaud, Ysayle, and Estinien were well written characters, and there wasn't any Mary Sue stealing the spotlight from them. Even when people complained about Stormblood, Lyse didn't steal the spotlight from other characters like Mary Sue did. It was the WoL who had a solo instance fight with Zenos, and we actually lost the first time. When we met Hien, we had time to learn about Hien, Lyse wasn't there for Hien to immediately love and worship. And when we defeated Shinryu, Lyse didn't come in to steal the credits for doing 1% of the job.

Maybe, just maybe, the "main character" part is not really the thing that makes people enjoy FFXIV's story? Maybe it's the lack of Mary Sue?

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).

Are we gunna pretend that XIV was ever anything but the side characters basically acting as gentle tour guides through a linear story? Did you actually expect branching paths where you could fight to ensure Wuk Lamat doesn't get on the throne, or the WoL to break down what is clearly a good (even if you find her annoying, its hard to argue Wuk Lamat is a morally bad person) person who needs encouragement?

Like what are you actually expecting? If you think Wuk Lamat is annoying, that is valid (again, she has... way too much voiced screentime, its actually a bit absurd). But arguing the story construction sidelines us to being someone's beatstick and problem solver is actively stupid because that is what every expansion has been besides Endwalker. We do what Minfilia/Alphinauld/Aymeric/Hein/The Exarch says the plan is because they are the guys and gals with the plan, inspire some NPCs around us, impress some major characters with our power and resolve, beat the bad guys up, serve up the next expansion. Dawntrail gave us a different rationale for doing it, but its the same thing we always do, to the point its literally a running joke in the game our neck muscles are super strong because we just agree with people around us all the time.

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Honestly a good point, but I think the difference between the previous expansions and DT is that having the story centered around us and having us doing a LOT of the heavy lifting is that is masks a lot of the writing flaws and helps spur attachment to the storyline instead of picking it apart like we do with DT.

There's plenty of "Why don't we just kick their butts instead of staring?" moments in previous expansions, but because the spotlight is on us, they can hide the trash (Bad writing, being slaves to the plot, not having all that much agency) in the darkness, where with Llama Tea and us being forced to watch Slideshows for 5 hours before finally doing a dungeon, since the spotlight is on her we can clearly see the trash pile she's standing on and all the disgusting flies buzzing around.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).

Are we gunna pretend that XIV was ever anything but the side characters basically acting as gentle tour guides through a linear story? Did you actually expect branching paths where you could fight to ensure Wuk Lamat doesn't get on the throne, or the WoL to break down what is clearly a good (even if you find her annoying, its hard to argue Wuk Lamat is a morally bad person) person who needs encouragement?

Like what are you actually expecting? If you think Wuk Lamat is annoying, that is valid (again, she has... way too much voiced screentime, its actually a bit absurd). But arguing the story construction sidelines us to being someone's beatstick and problem solver is actively stupid because that is what every expansion has been besides Endwalker. We do what Minfilia/Alphinauld/Aymeric/Hein/The Exarch says the plan is because they are the guys and gals with the plan, inspire some NPCs around us when they have doubts about their plans, impress some major characters with our power and resolve, beat the bad guys up, serve up the next expansion. Dawntrail gave us a different rationale for doing it, but its the same thing we always do, to the point its literally a running joke in the game our neck muscles are super strong because we just agree with people around us all the time.

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Please don't bring up HW and other expansions into this, that would be a totally different discussion

I mean, I am glad you agree that Wuk can be annoying but don't shift the goalpost and topic...can you elaborate on how are we a mentor figure to Wuk? I just don't see it? Just the trading questline? She could've asked anyone else and get the same result

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Originally Posted by Seiki_Kisaki

Can you at least read everyone's opinions before putting them all under the same blanket of "Not the main character"?

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If you re-read what I said, you may notice I didn't say 'Anyone who doesn't like Dawntrail doesn't like it because they think they are the main character when they shouldn't be.'

What I actually wrote was 'There are reasons to dislike the story, even though I liked it, but saying 'we are not the main character' is very stupid because we never were.' Which is an argument some people obviously were making.

If that doesn't apply to you, that is fantastic! But perhaps you should yourself read other people's opinions first before leaping to the defense of your justification for not liking the story. It undercuts your actually good point that the way it was executed was different.

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Please don't bring up HW and other expansions into this, that would be a totally different discussion

I mean, I am glad you agree that Wuk can be annoying but don't shift the goalpost and topic...can you elaborate on how are we a mentor figure to Wuk? I just don't see it? Just the trading questline? She could've asked anyone else and get the same result

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Its not shifting the topic. I am pointing out a disconnect by making a comparison. It isn't moving the goalposts to point to another expansion that had a fairly similar structure (road trip with a learning moment for a young NPC, this time Alphinauld, learning how to be a leader and hero) that was also linear and forced you to cheerlead the character. If you liked HW but didn't like DT, it probably means you are ok with being a cheerleader and some aspect of being a cheerleader for Alphinauld felt better than Wuk Lamat, even though you have more scenes where Wuk Lamat asks you or the party what to do than in HW.

I think you perhaps pointed out what is important for you, which is feeling like your doing the heavy lifting. It is very fair to point out that DT's first half is VERY low stakes. So even though your always being pointed at a problem or basically directed by the gaggle of NPCs, in HW its stuff like 'Alphinauld figures out you need to do this awesome thing' while in DT its 'Erinvelle figures out you need 5 bear asses.' Then in the back half once she grows determined and the stakes are high she is also a lot more assertive (And also like low key some of the plot construction of THAT half isn't great).

As for moments you actually mentored Wuk Lamat or guided her, most of the trading questline, and the immediate aftermath of the attack where you talk to her about the burden of being someone who can help but sometimes fails. She also basically never comes up with the idea on how to progress any of the challenges save for the last one and the one with the festival. Usually its Erinvelle who actually leads the way with his cultural knowledge that guides Wuk Lamat towards the right answer, its his main purpose in the first half of the story as her more traveled childhood friend. She is actually a *really* passive and uncertain charactrer, especially outside of voiced cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

If that didn't land for you, its fine, but I think its disingenuous to say 'There is literally no way you could interpret your character as having a mentorship relationship with this character' when the king *explicitly* asks you to have one. Like its not nothing, obviously, its literally not even subtext, its the literal text of the story.

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Wrangling a 7 foot tall toddler does not really equate to mentoring anything, even with them trying to use that word. We're babysitters.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Its not shifting the topic. I am pointing out a disconnect by making a comparison. It isn't moving the goalposts to point to another expansion that had a fairly similar structure (road trip with a learning moment for a young NPC, this time Alphinauld, learning how to be a leader and hero) that was also linear and forced you to cheerlead the character. If you liked HW but didn't like DT, it probably means you are ok with being a cheerleader and some aspect of being a cheerleader for Alphinauld felt better than Wuk Lamat, even though you have more scenes where Wuk Lamat asks you or the party what to do than in HW.

I think you perhaps pointed out what is important for you, which is feeling like your doing the heavy lifting. It is very fair to point out that DT's first half is VERY low stakes. So even though your always being pointed at a problem or basically directed by the gaggle of NPCs, in HW its stuff like 'Alphinauld figures out you need to do this awesome thing' while in DT its 'Erinvelle figures out you need 5 bear asses.' Then in the back half once she grows determined and the stakes are high she is also a lot more assertive (And also like low key some of the plot construction of THAT half isn't great).

As for moments you actually mentored Wuk Lamat or guided her, most of the trading questline, and the immediate aftermath of the attack where you talk to her about the burden of being someone who can help but sometimes fails. She also basically never comes up with the idea on how to progress any of the challenges save for the last one and the one with the festival. Usually its Erinvelle who actually leads the way with his cultural knowledge that guides Wuk Lamat towards the right answer, its his main purpose in the first half of the story as her more traveled childhood friend. She is actually a *really* passive and uncertain charactrer, especially outside of voiced cutscenes.

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Um no, I think you are making an unfair comparison. We are not the 'mentor figure' to anyone in those expansions, and HW is not an Alphinaud-as-MC only expansion.

Also the examples you cited are pretty superficial and you even brought in Erenville. Like I said in the trading questline, she could've asked anyone else and arrive in the same conclusion by herself. So I ask again, how is the WoL a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat?

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Um no, I think you are making an unfair comparison. We are not the 'mentor figure' to anyone in those expansions, and HW is not an Alphinaud-as-MC only expansion.

Also the examples you cited are pretty superficial and you even brought in Erenville. Like I said in the trading questline, she could've asked anyone else and arrive in the same conclusion by herself. So I ask again, how is the WoL a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat?

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They are superficial because our involvement with literally every plot is superficial. We literally can only talk to people by making a choice of 2-3 dialogue choices that can't ever alter the actual plot. "That isn't a good enough example" isn't an actual counter-argument, the fact is the story does establish that Wuk Lamat looks up to us and looks to us for guidance and our influence does change how she views the world.

As for HW, the first half is pretty explicitly a coming of age story for Alphinauld where he comes into his own and realizes what he should do after the disaster of the Crystal Braves and his confidence is utterly shattered. Its why the firewood scene (which is mostly Estinien's moment with him, not yours) is so legendary. He freaks out utterly over being able to accomplish ANYTHING, and that road trip half culminates with the two adults with him breaking and him meanwhile becoming more resolved. Our involvement in that story is pretty much cheerleading Alphinauld, and he would have gotten there without us. But it wasn't pointless either, and it sets him up for the ultimate end of the story where he (and you) rescue Estinien by refusing to give in to cynicism. Alphinauld, low key, was the main character of HW, he was the one with an arc who grew and changed. It just did a good job of hiding that by having you fight a big dragon. He even shoves into the the ultimate moment of triumph just like Wuk Lamat, but in a cutscene!

A really big difference between the two is the stakes of the 'coming of age' portion (again, cool adventures ending a horrible war vs bear asses). The other is the back half of DT is... not the strongest IMO, which is a problem when your first half is trying to set up a secret lead for the second and the second half just isn't great, which does a lot more to hurt Wuk Lamat as a character in my opinion than 'we support her' which like... duh of course we do. That is literally what we do as the WoL.