Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by rawker

1. I reckon to remove all barriers on WAR cooldowns and just focus on its self-healing aspect albeit reduced. Let DRK and PLD handle the barrier application.
2. Increase the self-barrier from GNB's combo'ed Brutal Shell so they are not that squishy.
3. Give other benefits to TBN so that if it breaks within the first 3 seconds of application, it will get another buff lasting for what remains to TBN's duration. In my opinion, a barrier breaking that early means that the shielded person is sustaining a lot of damage at a relatively short amount of time and may need extra protection.

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1.) Removal of healing/regen from Shake it Off and the shielding from Nascent Flash, yes. Keep the Shake if Off shield though. We are too deep with duties being designed around tanks having a 90s AOE mitigation, so it is necessary now. Not entirely sold with the complete removal of Nascent Flash healing yet, as is evident by my earlier post.

2.) I mean... it has a combined healing/shield effect exceeding Soul Eater (by 100) and Storm's Path (by 150). I get "why" it would be nice, as you can share it with someone else, but its 400 effective heal potency per Brutal Shell already.

3.) Based on one end as it would encourage well-timed TBN, but on the other hand it will discourage a potential way of using TBN by making the shield break as late as possible so the next TBN is up earlier for more mitigation. This has been more relevant since Pandemonium raids and the DOT-applying busters (P6S, P8Sp1, P10S) as well as high frequency/ high damage in certain ultimates (tanking Brute Justice in TEA, Trinity autos in DSR p7).

I would like something simple though for shield break, maybe make the next Dart Arts: Edge/Flood of Shadow have +400 heal potency (retaliation hit).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

1.) Removal of healing/regen from Shake it Off and the shielding from Nascent Flash, yes. Keep the Shake if Off shield though. We are too deep with duties being designed around tanks having a 90s AOE mitigation, so it is necessary now. Not entirely sold with the complete removal of Nascent Flash healing yet, as is evident by my earlier post.

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Put thy healer cap for a moment. Barrier healers complement regen healers so that the damage intake the party sustains will not require excessive amounts of healing from the co-healer. Current WAR does both with no penalty. Now, since WAR's playstyle is aggressive tanking, he should be able to do so but it will not make him immortal and will still need the aid of healers. Using PLD as an example.. sure he can Clemency himself but Riot Combo only restores 1000MP and Clemency costs 2000MP. Also, PLDs need to stop DPSing to heal with Clemency should he decide to save his allies.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

2.) I mean... it has a combined healing/shield effect exceeding Soul Eater (by 100) and Storm's Path (by 150). I get "why" it would be nice, as you can share it with someone else, but its 400 effective heal potency per Brutal Shell already.

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I don't see how it is broken to give extra barrier to GNB. It can easily be fixed by making the shared barrier from HoC is halved to prevent abuse.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

3.) Based on one end as it would encourage well-timed TBN, but on the other hand it will discourage a potential way of using TBN by making the shield break as late as possible so the next TBN is up earlier for more mitigation. This has been more relevant since Pandemonium raids and the DOT-applying busters (P6S, P8Sp1, P10S) as well as high frequency/ high damage in certain ultimates (tanking Brute Justice in TEA, Trinity autos in DSR p7).

I would like something simple though for shield break, maybe make the next Dart Arts: Edge/Flood of Shadow have +400 heal potency (retaliation hit).

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Let's not limit to the DRK only. Make it so that the target (self if TBN is applied to self) will get a 1 time life leech to their next weapon skill or spell.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

1.) Removal of healing/regen from Shake it Off and the shielding from Nascent Flash, yes. Keep the Shake if Off shield though. We are too deep with duties being designed around tanks having a 90s AOE mitigation, so it is necessary now. Not entirely sold with the complete removal of Nascent Flash healing yet, as is evident by my earlier post.

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I'm pretty sure they can come up with something more unique to the WAR identity than a party shield tbh.

Like maybe "Boosts the max HP of self and nearby allies by 20% and delivers a counterattack of 35 potency multiplied by the amount of party members with the buff that got hit.".

So a max HP boost for everyone and a counter of 280 potency for every raidwide/stack taken by the party during the buff duration. Would fit a 'berserker tank' identity more than a partywide shield+heal+regen.

Can we also change its name

SIO made sense when “angry man so angry he shakes off a debuff” but what does shake it off have to do with a party wide shield/heal that you can empower by consuming your mitigations

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm pretty sure they can come up with something more unique to the WAR identity than a party shield tbh.

Like maybe "Boosts the max HP of self and nearby allies by 20% and delivers a counterattack of 35 potency multiplied by the amount of party members with the buff that got hit.".

So a max HP boost for everyone and a counter of 280 potency for every raidwide/stack taken by the party during the buff duration. Would fit a 'berserker tank' identity more than a partywide shield+heal+regen.

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Unless that max HP boost also fills out the HP gained by this effect, it will generally be awful defensively. Aside from that, this could cause issues for heal checks that cleanse with max HP or do damage based on current health and snapshot in a bad spot of using this action if it runs out in that moment (it will kill the player if that happens, as was evident in Deltascape Savage with Mage's Ballad Troubadour and dropping Defiance in a bad moment back then).

An increase in max HP (with heal based on that increase) and a shield of that exact same increase is fundamentally the exact same. Shields are just temporary health, hence you could call it shield HP. A temporary HP shield by encouraging your allies to brace for a big blow and shake it off is very much in line with WAR identity.

As for the counter attack on Shake it Off, hard pass. If HW parry + Reprisal interaction and StB BRD's self MP refresh usage for Foe's Requieum ever taught me anything is that coupling a direct damage increase for using a "free" mitigation will 9/10 times result in choosing what creates the most damage for oneself rather than what is generally more beneficial to the party. Sure, a potential design avenue and great for healthy optimisation, but parsefrogs will happily act selfish.

Vengeance as the sole tank action with an effect like that (and the only 30% mitigation with a bonus effect in general) is a significant outlier.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can we also change its name

SIO made sense when “angry man so angry he shakes off a debuff” but what does shake it off have to do with a party wide shield/heal that you can empower by consuming your mitigations

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Shake it Off = telling your party (and yourself) to brace for an attack and shake it off after it lands.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Unless that max HP boost also fills out the HP gained by this effect, it will generally be awful defensively. Aside from that, this could cause issues for heal checks that cleanse with max HP or do damage based on current health and snapshot in a bad spot of using this action if it runs out in that moment (it will kill the player if that happens, as was evident in Deltascape Savage with Mage's Ballad Troubadour and dropping Defiance in a bad moment back then).

An increase in max HP (with heal based on that increase) and a shield of that exact same increase is fundamentally the exact same. Shields are just temporary health, hence you could call it shield HP. A temporary HP shield by encouraging your allies to brace for a big blow and shake it off is very much in line with WAR identity.

As for the counter attack on Shake it Off, hard pass. If HW parry + Reprisal interaction and StB BRD's self MP refresh usage for Foe's Requieum ever taught me anything is that coupling a direct damage increase for using a "free" mitigation will 9/10 times result in choosing what creates the most damage for oneself rather than what is generally more beneficial to the party. Sure, a potential design avenue and great for healthy optimisation, but parsefrogs will happily act selfish.

Vengeance as the sole tank action with an effect like that (and the only 30% mitigation with a bonus effect in general) is a significant outlier.

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I think shake being AOE thrill works better, delete the regen and the heal and basically make it AOE thrill (or AOE protraction)

They don’t use white hole anymore anyway so it really doesn’t matter on that front

Even if they are fundamentally the same (10% shield vs 10% HP up) trading the regen and the heal for increased healing received seems like something more WAR focused than a shield

Valid concerns about the max HP increase. It could cause random deaths like how BRD's Troubadour did back when they had a party-wide max HP boost, fair.

But you lost me at this part:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

As for the counter attack on Shake it Off, hard pass. If HW parry + Reprisal interaction and StB BRD's self MP refresh usage for Foe's Requieum ever taught me anything is that coupling a direct damage increase for using a "free" mitigation will 9/10 times result in choosing what creates the most damage for oneself rather than what is generally more beneficial to the party. Sure, a potential design avenue and great for healthy optimisation, but parsefrogs will happily act selfish.

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I'm not seeing how one can use the skill I described in a selfish way, given that the counter potency scales off the amount of people hit, so you'd always want to use it where the entire party is taking multiple hits in a row, that also happens to be where it's the most useful.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think shake being AOE thrill works better, delete the regen and the heal and basically make it AOE thrill (or AOE protraction)

They don’t use white hole anymore anyway so it really doesn’t matter on that front

Even if they are fundamentally the same (10% shield vs 10% HP up) trading the regen and the heal for increased healing received seems like something more WAR focused than a shield

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For a start, even past White Hole we had mechanics that would drop our HP to a single-digit value without death prevention (Heartless Angel, Heartless Archangel, variants of Charybdis, TEA p2 CC using Photon). We also have heal checks vs variants of Doom, requiring full HP to cleanse (Zeromus most recently). Those mechanics are not an issue in a vacuum, but max HP modification on a party-wide scale rather than using shield HP with same effect will cause design problems.

Aside from that, it's semantics, really. They do the same thing, just that max HP increase is fundamentally more prone to wonky mechanic mishaps. Temporary shields, temporary max HP, same deal, different colour.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Valid concerns about the max HP increase. It could cause random deaths like how BRD's Troubadour did back when they had a party-wide max HP boost, fair.

But you lost me at this part:



I'm not seeing how one can use the skill I described in a selfish way, given that the counter potency scales off the amount of people hit, so you'd always want to use it where the entire party is taking multiple hits in a row, that also happens to be where it's the most useful.

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Simple. While depending heavily on raid design, it will lead to decisionmaking to prioritize the use of Shake it Off before all other raid mitigation to get more casts out of Shake it Off for damage over the course of a fight.

There was no specification by you with how hard the attacks would need to hit, so "anything" that would simply strike the shield for any amount of damage would trigger the one-time effect, even if the value of using it for defensive purpose would make it more appropriate at a different raidwide attack.

It would also desincentivize usage during time where you can't deal damage to the attacker or where the source of the damage is not the boss - this is a problem for Reprisal in general. Example, you'd avoid using it in Thordan EX/Unreal for Ultimate End and the final AOE rush and prioritize using it on Thordan's stack attack as well as Ancient Quaga, rather than be flexible in usage.

Don't get me wrong, I am not fully opposed, but the dps-optimisation that would result out of this for meta play would desincentivize adequate mitigation planning in favour of DPS.