Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

Also, while it's far besides the point, I think Lunaxia's got a wrong read on Hythlodaeus, who I think is just realistic about his abilities and limitations rather than 'worryingly hard on himself'. He's not really down on himself in any way except his deficiencies in magic. He's quite happy, quite friendly, knows his stuff and is happy to share it and use it when he has to. By all appearances, he's quite good at his job and quite comfortable with that (except for the part where Byregot's doing most of it instead). The problem is that when the chips go down, suddenly the situation is calling for those skills that he's confirmably not good at. So I don't think Hyth is an unfair judge of his own skillset at all, especially given Emet and Venat don't exactly call him wrong about it--and you'd expect Emet espeically to talk up his skills if Hyth was just down on himself for nothing.

Now Erich, the other established weaker-than-average Ancient, definitely is hard on himself, but that's an established flaw that he overcomes as part of his journey. Which itself says to me that Hyth doesn't have that flaw; we know how the writers write 'an Ancient that's hard on themselves for lack of magical ability', and not only does Hyth not act like Erich, but Emet and Venat don't act like Themis.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's not that the cost of victory (if you want to call it that; I wouldn't) was high, it's that it was too high.

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Wild suppositions aside, I'm struggling to understand the logic here. It was a terribly high cost, but the alternative was literal extinction. Are you suggesting they shouldn't have summoned Zodiark and allowed themselves to be killed... because too many of them died to bring him forth? When they would have all been wiped out regardless? And they did actually manage to survive and bring themselves back to a state of reasonable stability? I think there are a few holes in your logic there.

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Meaning, even if we'd detained and unmade Etheirys' Meteion, there's a nonzero chance the Endsinger's Song of Oblivion would still hit and bring Amaurot to its nadir.

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...uh, Meteion possibly managing to still flee somehow in some hypothetical scenario doesn't actually negate Hermes' responsibility in directly prohibiting her capture twice and allowing her to escape, thus allowing all of what came to pass, though. Especially the first time, when they had the opportunity to detain her before she deteriorated further and they sensed danger in the offing, and he chose not to exercise what control he may still have had over her at that point but opted to run away. Meteion was Hermes' experiment that went wrong, he not only disregarded any and every chance to stop her but actively encouraged it, and he was the one who wiped the information from their minds needed to stop her at any further juncture. So I reiterate, what happened was his responsibility.

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And the question still remains: even if we'd stopped Meteion's Song of Oblivion...

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How long until a mortal unleashes another, far more potent Diabolos? Or toys around with even more dangerous auracite? Another questionable Weapon? Another Black Rose, another, more deadlier disease than that which ravaged Nym? Another imperial conquest, resulting in a world war? Another battle that drains the land dry? I'm hearing the same argument and so far finding absolutely no reason why this is any more of an issue for the Ancients than it is for mortals.

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Zodiark did nothing but nullify the Song of Oblivion's effects, and on Etheirys alone. That's not refusing to give credit where credit's due, that's just the reality of it.

It's true the source of the Terminus phenomenon (Song of Oblivion) wasn't made known to the Ancients, but few to none of them seemed to actually care; their primary concern was restoring the status quo prior to the Final Days, not learning what said cause was, much less dealing with it.

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What I mean by credit is that he's often made out to be a very poor, unsustainable and unreliable solution to what was a deadly threat and is frequently used as an argument against the Ancients' capabilities, but the fact is, he has held up strong against Meteion's song for twelve thousand years. Clearly, it had to be dealt with at some point or other, but what I'm saying is that he's actually proven to be a stalwart and incredibly crucial line of defence while Venat... did what she did, and I think that gets swept under the rug. The Ancients knew what they were doing when they summoned him, and he is not the crooked safety pin holding everything together that he's made out to be.

I mean, "not caring" is a pretty brutal assessment of a group of people who were still in the process of trying to fix their planet from the damage of the phenomenon in the first place and had pretty much any and all hint about the primary cause behind it taken away from them before they were annihilated a relatively short while later. I know they're not exactly popular here, but you've got to give them at least some break, lol.

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The point is that one Ancient, by accident, almost ended all creation. A civilization of people that powerful sits on a knife's edge; it's only a matter of time until someone casts the die, willingly, knowingly, or otherwise.

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(It wasn't an accident, though.) And you're still letting your bias of the Ancients colour your perception and not answering why they were on anymore of a knife's edge than human existence as a whole. All I'm hearing is "Ancient powers are scary", for a society that actually did a hell of a job keeping such abilities in check, held themselves to an impeccable moral standard and did everything within their power to maintain balance and order in line with their gift of creation and keep watch over their people and the planet to protect and safeguard it for the future.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, while it's far besides the point, I think Lunaxia's got a wrong read on Hythlodaeus, who I think is just realistic about his abilities.

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I think you'd have to be ignoring some pretty glaring subtext if you think Hyth isn't self-deprecating or that he's actually being "realistic" in how he perceives himself. The guy is clearly held in extremely high regard by Ancient society but still thinks himself lesser than his fellows, has little faith in any of his abilities beyond his sight - and Emet-Selch does actually have to prod him to remind him of one of his strengths, to which he panics because he fears being called "fairly skilled" will unreasonably raise everyone's expectations of him - thinks his greatest achievement and contribution despite what he's accomplished is helping his friends with their dreams, is first on the front line offering to sacrifice himself because he thinks it's the most pragmatic solution and the best way he could be of use to anyone, and his dialogue in Ktisis does not exactly jibe with the impression of someone who thinks a great deal of themselves:

"I'm not entirely useless."
"You shouldn't have [resurrected him.] No, really."
"...are you sure? [asking him to LB.]"

I don't see Venat or Emet-Selch as the type to push him when he's clearly uncomfortable with praise or attention and struggles with self-belief - if you've experience with matters of confidence, you'll know it can do more harm than good to put someone on the spot like that - and and instead rather let their regard for him speak for itself.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

his dialogue in Ktisis does not exactly jibe with the impression of someone who thinks a great deal of themselves:

"I'm not entirely useless."
"You shouldn't have [resurrected him.] No, really."
"...are you sure? [asking him to LB.]"

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That can be in line with him normally being completely correct and honest in his poor opinion of his magical strength, and yet the magic-dampening forcefield in Ktiseos has brought everyone to equal level with him so he seems relatively more skilled here than usual.

But also, how are you "asking him to LB"? Or does one of the other characters say it?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That can be in line with him normally being completely correct and honest in his poor opinion of his magical strength, and yet the magic-dampening forcefield in Ktiseos has brought everyone to equal level with him so he seems relatively more skilled here than usual.

But also, how are you "asking him to LB"? Or does one of the other characters say it?

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It's when/if he is the one do use a 2 bar limit break. He says "Who? Me!? You can't be serious..." in the English. In Japanese for the same one he says "Oh dear, so do you seriously intend to rely on me!?". He normally doesn't limit break or chooses to go first as Emet-Selch or Venat tend to try to use it first.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

It's when/if he is the one do use a 2 bar limit break. He says "Who? Me!? You can't be serious..." in the English. In Japanese for the same one he says "Oh dear, so do you seriously intend to rely on me!?". He normally doesn't limit break or chooses to go first as Emet-Selch or Venat tend to try to use it first.

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He's also the only one of the Ktisis trust NPCs that's always DPS, so basically by any definition, if he's the one LBing, things are very bad. You ever been the only DPS left standing on a near-wipe, desperately trying to get as much damage on the board as possible to outrace the inevitable? That's exactly the emotion that comes through in those lines.

But honestly I feel like Lunaxia doesn't understand their own argument, and just understands that they're in one. This is too far all over the place to make any sense, all I can really gather is that they seem to think that Hermes is some cackling supervillain that masterminded the heat death of the universe and then just... I dunno, made it look like an accident? I genuinely can't fathom how someone lands at the thought that Hermes didn't do what he did by well-meaning accident, and I really don't get how that's somehow supported by Hythlodaeus' perceived low self-esteem.

I also don't understand what establishing Hyth's skill level has to do with whether there was hypothetically a way to save the Ancients.

It is a bit hard to follow the core points of the discussion, to be fair. Let me try to summarize.

I think the main ongoing question was whether a society of hedonistic and whimsical godlings could be stably governed by a small circle of nepotistic oligarchs without everything rapidly going to pieces. The story handwaves this by saying that they were all of one peaceful (hive)mind until they weren't. When required to provide further detail in subsequent stories, such as the ones on Elpis, Amaurotine society in contrast turns out to be actually filled with charismatic individualists who routinely use their immense powers in accordance with their personal whims and beliefs. Naturally, when we get to be friends and know them better, it ends up being one self-inflicted world ending threat after another.

Under such conditions, being eloquent and persuasive will only get you so far, and sometimes the application of force (physical or institutional) will be required. Convocation members were not necessarily selected on the basis of raw power, so it seems unlikely that they could maintain stable rule under such conditions indefinitely. (We already know for a fact that they were unable to, even with their current member group, and you can actually rest your case at that.)

As an example, several people noted that the Convocation would struggle to pass their intimidation checks had they run with Hyth instead of Hades as the party face, as was originally planned. The tangential counterclaim made was that Hyth isn't less capable than Hades in raw magical power, he's just being modest. That strikes me as a bit of a stretch, but it seems to be a contentious point in here for whatever reason.

A similar back and forth occurred around Hermes as well, although it's worth remembering that this is the same future Convocation member who we witnessed get outwitted by an amybystoma and stuck on a tree within minutes of being introduced. Not the high point of Convocation gravitas, to be sure.

Either way, Amaurot was designed as a 'creation myth' to explain the backstory of the world setting. It isn't the primary setting itself. The starting premise in the writing that it was destroyed twelve thousand years ago. I could see a 'What if' scenario eventually being presented as part of an Ultimate fight (i.e. the Azem's plan route), but I wouldn't expect much more than that.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I also don't understand what establishing Hyth's skill level has to do with whether there was hypothetically a way to save the Ancients.

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I feel it came about with talk from others about how convocation members are perceived as being strong in magics. And that Hermes must also be strong in magics. Hythlodaeus was brought up as a counter point. As even if one might not read his parts in the story or how he's seen to behave as being down on himself he had been a choice for the seat of Emet-Selch before Hades was given it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

He's also the only one of the Ktisis trust NPCs that's always DPS, so basically by any definition, if he's the one LBing, things are very bad. You ever been the only DPS left standing on a near-wipe, desperately trying to get as much damage on the board as possible to outrace the inevitable? That's exactly the emotion that comes through in those lines.

But honestly I feel like Lunaxia doesn't understand their own argument, and just understands that they're in one. This is too far all over the place to make any sense, all I can really gather is that they seem to think that Hermes is some cackling supervillain that masterminded the heat death of the universe and then just... I dunno, made it look like an accident? I genuinely can't fathom how someone lands at the thought that Hermes didn't do what he did by well-meaning accident, and I really don't get how that's somehow supported by Hythlodaeus' perceived low self-esteem.

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I have been that dps and most often I somehow end up being on bard or mch so that the only way to hope I survive is with second wind and a potion. Or that if the tank is still alive is able to throw me a shield that can heal me.

I feel they're trying hard to steer it towards the one that normally breaks out when talking about anything related to that subject. While also trying to argue many points that weren't all brought up by those she's arguing with. I still feel the only way to avoid the sundering and thus "save" the ancients is to prevent the releasing of the Metiea. Or at least having Hermes do one more correction of Meteion. Though that doesn't stop the world going to hell. As we know Midgardsormr was already on his way by the time we're visiting Elpis. Which means Omega is also on their way. We also know that if the Ominicrons had found a way to continue on their subjugation of the universe they would have made it to Etheirys at some point. We all know what they do when they start their attack. They target the various ecosystems of the planet and kill them off.

Even if the Onminicrons didn't come and they didn't go the way of the Nibirun then they'd end up like the EA in awaiting the heat death of the universe. If not something else coming along or the veneer peels off for one too many and the next Hermes or Athena ends up happening. Only for the counter point to be yeah well the sundered are just as capable. Where I don't think anyone is arguing against that. Just it only takes a single Ancient vs what normally is a group of sundered doing something that's able to cause world ending catastrophes.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I have been that dps and most often I somehow end up being on bard or mch so that the only way to hope I survive is with second wind and a potion. Or that if the tank is still alive is able to throw me a shield that can heal me.

I feel they're trying hard to steer it towards the one that normally breaks out when talking about anything related to that subject. While also trying to argue many points that weren't all brought up by those she's arguing with. I still feel the only way to avoid the sundering and thus "save" the ancients is to prevent the releasing of the Metiea. Of at least having Hermes do one more correction of Meteion. Though that doesn't stop the world going to hell. As we know Midgardsormr was already on his way by the time we're visiting Elpis. Which means Omega is also on their way. We also know that if the Ominicrons had found a way to continue on their subjugation of the universe they would have made it to Etheirys at some point. We all know what they do when they start their attack. They target the various ecosystems of the planet and kill them off.

Even if the Onminicrons didn't come and they didn't go the way of the Nibirun then they'd end up like the EA in awaiting the heat death of the universe. If not something else coming along or the veneer peels off for one too many and the next Hermes or Athena ends up happening. Only for the counter point to be yeah well the sundered are just as capable. Where I don't think anyone is arguing against that. Just it only takes a single Ancient vs what normally is a group of sundered doing something that's able to cause world ending catastrophes.

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I guess this thought might be something better suited to a thread of it's own - but one can't help but wonder what would've happened if the Omicrons had reached Etheirys during the Ancients time.