Paladin needs to be overhauled

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I fail to see the point of this addition. You essentially only just moved Shield Bash onto Intervene to make "space" for Holy Spirit and giving it Shield Bash's cooldown. That is just making your stun more predictable and less flexible when you want to be mobile but keep your stun.

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Guardian has great mobility because it can gap close 20y for support but intervene with a stun function added and gap closing for offensive purposes is not flexible or predictable despite intervene + shield bash being relatively usable combo

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Like I'm sorry if I am on a huge disagreement with you, but what I am understanding is you are either wanting Paladin to do more than it should or your view on how good Paladin's kit is skewed because your teammates genuinely drag you down. I mentioned this earlier and it is really not meant with malice - consider dropping Paladin for another job if you can't enjoy for what it is worth.

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You can enjoy/love a job but still criticize it, the whole thesis is based on the compare and contrast in the 1st post its not a matter of saying PLD cant do more (which it can) or disregarding teammates skillset as you seem to often do. I sincerely recommend you play PLD more because my suspicion is you dont as much as you let on, dont be sorry in fact your disagreements are admirable even tho theyre antithetical to my own

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Originally Posted by Valence

You don't want to use Guardian without Guard on yourself. Unless you feel like trading your life for somebody else is worth it, but odds are you both are gonna die because if you drop fast, the cover will also go before the team mate gets out of trouble.

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im pretty sure we've established and have extensively gone into this with previous people

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you get chain stunned after your invuln, use Purify? Keep it ready before using the LB if possible. You know how purify works when it cleanses a debuff right? (and if you're referring to polymorph, then yeah, that ability can go to hell, but it's not just a PLD issue either)
PLD was actually one of the best if not the best AoE tank in ShB. I should know, I kept having the best damage tallies in feast up to diamond. Confiteor was just that good for it.

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Confeti is in no way a better substitute for Holy circle, youre smart enough to asses and realize poly but not enough for other issues or scenarios in which purify isnt usable?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Shieldbash's pro compared to Primal Rend is that one is instant, the other one has an insane animation delay and is also used for WAR's primary damage output. Shieldbash performs a lot better at securing kills, while Primal Rend is better at applying team pressure. They're not used exactly identically, and both shine at different things. I could see how one would see shieldbash as inferior if they're not using it to specifically hit targets out of resources in the shins when it will make them dead with a 99% probability.

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i think this is another example of perfect play mentality, what you illustrate requires a team effort/coordination which pvp does not have in terms of the majority of matches that is experienced both for CC and FL

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

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Im glad you appreciate PLD but to say it should remain this way because a handful of players recognize its utility let alone optimize the openings that PLD give is to me beyond selfish for class that you dont play

prior to 6.1 stun was a deciding factor for PLD to achieve a kill also if youre implying that current PLD is capable of 1v1 then i think youve missed the entire thread
Stuning a PLD LB removes the dps (check thread regarding my stance on dps) and healing factor in the hopes that the team is able to use that chance to turn the tides, now i agree when this happens its glorious but again you as well as the handful of people that reply are framing this in perfect play which is not the majority

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

A skill that becomes ineffective/effective based on the RNG skillset/awareness of another is by its very nature is useless, what good is cover if the 10y tether is broken in the 1st second of activation that doesn't utilize its intended purpose ? what other skill or class has two draw backs with one gain? the response only you have is this same one, how does that help PLD?

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Your teammates have skill issue. Cover is beyond stupid in ranks where people know what to do with Cover, stop complaining about the "drawbacks" that depend on you using mitigation for yourself and the awareness of your teammates.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I think you should play PLD more because if you truly "main" it you'd have the forethought to recognize these scenarios with your responses, but you find cover not as troubling which is subjective so ill leave it at that.

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Actually rich coming from the guy who complains about the "issues" an ability has that depends on his team not being a bunch of crayon-eaters. I'll continue playing where people aren't doing this, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

not sure what your trying to make with the PVE remark, but you seem to misunderstand when i say dps loss im not referring to PLD individual dps (as i have stated multiple times thats not my concern despite it being a flaw) what im referring to is the total dps of the 4v5 scenario in which the guard + cover creates or 3v5 if your teammate is using an elixir, im not against this combination it is indeed useful in certain events few and far between as they are but to praise it or put it on a pedestal is ridiculous

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Let me explain again:

If your teammate is able to Elixir around a corner to avoid death, that is ideal and saves himself a lot of damage lost.
If your teammate has no corner to do so and needs help now, Cover-Guard gives him that moment and it is better he gets to Elixir here while you protect him, saving him damage and limit break charge lost otherwise from dying.

Of course, ideally you never need to Cover-Guard-Elixir if your team strategically reduces the pressure from the enemy team. But the fact that you CAN do that is worth the damage loss from currently having a 3v5 fight for 5 seconds over losing a teammate for 15-20s.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Your teammates have skill issue. Cover is beyond stupid in ranks where people know what to do with Cover, stop complaining about the "drawbacks" that depend on you using mitigation for yourself and the awareness of your teammates.

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again im pretty sure we've extensively gone into how to mitigate with cover, also how is a major factor regarding a skills utility not worth mentioning? i get that you frame the use of cover in minority of cases but is that in any way how anything works? the answer no solutions are based on the majority