Make all Tank AOE Combos Cones Please

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Anyone can construct artificial situations in which Circular and Triangular AoEs are more effective. Mob positions are not static. This is an incredibly basic pick up pattern for any tank to do, regardless of whether you have muscle memory around using a Circle or a Triangle. You should be able to do this without thinking.

I can see why the dev team chose to standardize the base AoE combo across all jobs. It's about having a consistent muscle memory on your base combo across multiple jobs, not about Circles being easier to use or more effective. We still see Triangular and Line AoEs show up in job kits outside of the base AoE combo i.e. Guillotine and Grim Swathe. I can also see why some WAR players would be upset at having to change up their muscle memory over this.

What I don't understand, however, is why the OP is trying to force a change on all tanks instead of just talking about WAR. And on top of that, they keep necroing this thread instead of letting it just atrophy naturally of disinterest. This is your problem. You want a change, ask for it on your job. Leave the rest of us out of it.

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OP is being tongue in cheek, I'm sure. Though he does have a point, having nearly 50% more range in the direction that matters most is rather a big advantage. Regardless, I'd never support making everything the same, whether it be circles, cones, or rectangles.

That said I don't get the consistency argument, at all, if you play a different job but don't actually want to play a different job then...why? Jobs are already way too samey as it is.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Anyone can construct artificial situations in which Circular and Triangular AoEs are more effective. Mob positions are not static.

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I can post low quality meme video instead using Dark Knight. Mob positions are pretty darn static though outside of some ARR/Post ARR dungeons with pathing mobs.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

It is, however, a little funny that they keep crying "think of the healers and DPS!" as if 3/4th of the healers didn't also have centered AoEs and stand on top of the tanks either way, and about half of the dps as well.

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Wat?

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Originally Posted by Kallis

I'll repost my raid guide as well since people are having such a hard time understanding this

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Many thanks! Attempted the conveying of this in my post. Most tanks I encounter cannot even understand the need to actually hit everything before settling so no surprised basic positioning escapes them. They just blunder forward haphazardly not a provoke/ranged skill in sight body pulling everything. Feel for Sages aoe-ing on the move with Kardia applied. No surprised either that the need to *gasp* target something bothers them. Press tab hard. Press d-pad/trigger + shoulder button also hard.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

Sometimes if you do not hit the mob, most of the time it will not even show up in the list. Which should also be changed so you know if your team might have aggro on something you have not hit and just do not know it.

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This is most feist inducing and I hate everything it stands for. Must use mob color outline (changeable in settings). Mobs will have darker outline on their hitboxes when you have aggro of them. Flood of Dankness is fricken great for this. Missed a mob? Shoot that bad boy backwards and it will hit things because it is a cone.

'How did all these triangles make a circle? I just- no, no it's fine, it's fine. It doesn't bother me. It bothers me. It bothers me a lot! And that one's still green.'

Honestly, it really doesn't matter, because mobs are not static. And by not static, I mean the instant that you engage them, they start moving. There are plenty of spread out spawn configurations that require you to anticipate where the mobs will move to and require you to time your AoE. I should be able to give you polygons at random and you should be able to figure out how position yourself correctly to use each one optimally, if you have the spatial reasoning required to be a good tank. I remember that there were some WAR tanks who couldn't figure out how to do certain add pick-ups in ARR/Heavensward without cross-class Flash, which was a dps loss compared to Overpower (Imdagud and Alexander spring immediately to mind). Were those specific configurations trickier for triangles than for circles? Possibly (your mileage may vary). Were they impossible to do with a triangular Overpower? Absolutely not. So this debate itself is nearly ten years old.

There are some jobs that have to work around multiple types of AoE shapes (gasp!) on a daily basis like DRK and RPR. Generally these are for unique actions that are not part of your base AoE combo because they're timer-based AoEs or resource based GCDs.

I can't speak for the specifics, but I do know that the SAM upgrade from a triangular Fuga to a circular Fugo suggests that this is about creating a consistent 'language' around how jobs work at an extremely basic level of play. Now if you and other WAR players decide that you want this reversed such that you have a circle on the first step and a triangle on the second, on the basis that you are completely incapable of tanking without this specific shape combination, be my guest. In fact, take any combination of polygons that you like! What I request is that you campaign for it in a WAR-specific thread, so that you don't force your preferences on the other three tank jobs. If we wanted it, we would be asking for it.

Again, let this thread fade away, and express your preferences in a WAR-specific thread if it suits. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by castillle

Are you seriously blaming the dps because you cant be bothered to position mobs?

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LOL, I can't even...

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Here is one low quality meme post to assist in greater understanding;

https://i.ibb.co/ZB4jkyC/badtanku.png

https://i.ibb.co/Pgx301H/goodtanku.png

https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png

https://i.ibb.co/pvp6Rwb/healernotgettingbeaten.png

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this is kinda false...

mobs would try to pile around you so that they can all reach you with attacks

it is not nice of you to be so completely biased and show a tight pack in a conal scenario as opposed to the loosest formation ive ever seen in a circle situation, you can easily move into/under the biggest/center add so that everything else is neatly AND tightly packed

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

LOL, I can't even...

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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LOL, you are literally the same person who tried to convince people(if that is the right word) that the cirlce over power is more dps because you can hit more stuff. then start to be dismisssive about "DUNGEON balance" when people show the usefulness about cones in some situations.

also. when i would miss some add with old overpower, there was always another move to follow up with. have you heard of mithril tempest. It was literally there. the thing you are talking about. Hmmmm

you wanna know what else wasnt blowing up on these forums before 6.1? complaints about overpower being a cone.

you also keep mentioning that mobs keep piling around you. you are not wrong. nobody says that it isn't the case. so... are you going to answer my question or not?

once you have aggroed all the mobs. do you stand still and just keep spinning your axe even when aoe are aimed at you spot?
If you answer with 'ofcourse i move' then what is the problem with postitioning for overpower? is it missing mobs or not liking cones? Stop ignoring mythril tempest! missing out on damage? isn't DUNGEON content? why would you cry about that?

i cant help but feel that you come off as lazy.

why do i care about old overpower?it is not numbers or it being better. no it is about gameplay differences. we have 4 god damn tank jobs. there is no reason to have them all be the same. dont dismis it for being something small. that is very importend in job diversity. and dont tell me cones are bad. it was there for 8 years mainly used for DUNGEON content. it worked back then. it worked pre 6.1. I like it for keeping my brain active when pulling and aoe mobs.
the only reason why some people like the change is because they are lazy, change my mind.

why would reaper, a new job, still have cones when sam and war don't?

I like circle AoEs it’s particularly useful for getting hate on a lot of enemies without being careful of positioning honestly never had a problem with aggro so yea.

maybe you dont miss hits, good for you, there are plenty of windowlickers out there who do because they can't be arsed to move/dont care or whatever other reason, and I don't blame them, it is annoying af

usefulness in SOME situations huh, circle aoes are useful all the time, the real niche getting highlighted in favour of the cone is the ability to hit "everything" from a little bit further away when pulling, mob stacking advantage is outright misinformation

uhm yeah aoe comboes are a thing, how is that in favour of cones exactly? If you miss something with circle overpower you can just go hit it with cirle mythril follow up

damned if I know, I'm new to the forums, I can tell you though warrior was my first job and the cone bugged me ever since the aoe combo was acquired

I keep having to mention that mobs pile around you cause the images I quoted VERY CLEARLY IGNORE THAT FACT, just look at that beautiful stack in the conal scenario, look at it! Thats never gonna happen!

unless it can be stunned/interjected, generally yeah though really no reason to bother unless it gives you a nasty debuff and the healer does not esuna you (like exhaust or whatever), but again, that is not a fair comparison: how often do you need to move due to an aoe compared to having to move cause your rotation demands it to hit everything, its like you need to do 10 pushups before you can have your next slice of pizza

aoe shapes are not job defining characteristics, that stuff comes from job mechanics/gauge and rotations/abilities

you want change for the sake of change, the thread is arguing for all tank aoe conals, where is the diversity in that huh?

if you want to think, dungeons are already way too easy for you, go do extremes, savage or ultimates or something

my main issue is consistency, I dont want one conal when all my other kit is circle wth... similarly, I could live with all conal aoes, though I'd very likely dislike it greatly (having to have a target, cant aim manually etc etc) in essence circle aoes work better in practice

why does reaper have conal aoes? Idfk, silly design if you ask me, hopefully that will be turned into a circle too since the rest of the kit it mostly circle already anyway

I really miss the time someone told my friend that overpower was not popular in their rotation, and took it off of their hotbar because it just wasn't a pretty enough skill for them to think about using. Those were good times. I am sure they are using it now....that its a circle.

Remember who was being a condescending dush nozzle first when I rip you a new one :) Alrighty sweet cheeks, keep that short guy energy for someone else it is not attractive.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

mobs would try to pile around you so that they can all reach you with attacks

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That is their initial position? I am not in the aggro range yet? Derp.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

it is not nice of you to be so completely biased and show a tight pack in a conal scenario as opposed to the loosest formation ive ever seen in a circle situation, you can easily move into/under the biggest/center add so that everything else is neatly AND tightly packed

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Oh shoot! They are not? I did try super duper hard to place them almost exactly in same spots for both in my post labeled "low quality meme post". Gonna go back and re-edit that juuuust for you.. not.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

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Ahhh the gotcha, my favorite! Wanna know? Wanna know what I would do? I would voke/tomahawk into overpower as they moved closer followed by backwards overpower for a double hit. Same thing I still do with Flood of Dankness. Or you can wiff your circle aoe because of server ticks whatever boats your float.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

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By the twelve you are insufferable. If only your big big numbers could make up for your tiny tiny.. ego.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

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Why would I care what this thread does you absolute trog? Oh thank goodness Chopstix says that no body cares. Pack it up boys! We ship out at 0300, do not be late!

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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You first :)

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

I like circle AoEs it’s particularly useful for getting hate on a lot of enemies without being careful of positioning honestly never had a problem with aggro so yea.

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You're on a TANK job why in the gaddamn 7th circle of hell are you NOT being careful of positioning? So you're admitting to being lazy and a bad tank?

It's just so obvious this change is only viewed with a tiny amount of positivity (mostly just completely neutral), by a small minority of lazy ass tanks who were making things harder for their party to begin with. Now even more tanks are just gonna pick up the job, pull a pack and stand in place like a dope. This makes the game SO much better....