Current EX trial completed without Healers

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I wonder just how low healing requirements would have to get before current healer design white knights would actually admit that healing gameplay is designed poorly?

Because apparently five whole unavoidable raidwides in an entire "extreme" encounter you can cover with dancer heals isn't down there yet.

Enjoy casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, I can't imagine calling this slop "good design".

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I yelled an emphatic "YES" at my screen after having read this. Boneheaded people will continue to be needless contrarians with no real points to the contrary just so they can defend SE. Irritating.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

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Then he needs to take a hard look at the state of the game now because the issue has only gotten worse with time.

While I think Yoshi is a genius in all manner of design and project management, I think he struggles to properly design healing/tanking while trying to get to everything else. I wish he would realize he needs dedicated staffing for the healing and tanking roles.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I just don’t get anything the devs do anymore.

They act like healers will be desperately struggling to keep even a sliver of the party’s HP up, then release content that literally doesn’t even need them?
They act like the healer role is some extremely stressful, infinitely pressured job…then give the majority of dps and all four tanks powerful healing and defense cool downs? How can healers be so pressured by healing when Dancers/Reapers/Paladins/Warriors can do it all for them?

We aren’t allowed to have buffs or support gcds to manage or use, we aren’t allowed to have anything to heal, we aren’t allowed to do big shiny dps moves that are actually fun to use…what do they think is left?

And this is from the kind of person who honestly would be happy if we used Physick as many times as we use Broil IV now (replace heal with dps equivalent based on class lol). I genuinely enjoy having to manage healing gcds, mp, party/single target buffs. But the game literally doesn’t cater to any of us anymore. If you like being a healer that focuses on dps you’re out of luck. If you like being a healer that focuses on buffs or supporting the party, you’re out of luck. The best we get is a role that has nothing to heal, next to nothing to dps or support with, and can’t even do things that other roles can’t

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It was alarming seeing how many healing options, that are AoE no less, that the devs gave to DPS this expansion when we know time and again healing requirements are almost always so insanely low.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I wonder just how low healing requirements would have to get before current healer design white knights would actually admit that healing gameplay is designed poorly?

Because apparently five whole unavoidable raidwides in an entire "extreme" encounter you can cover with dancer heals isn't down there yet.

Enjoy casting one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, I can't imagine calling this slop "good design".

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I don't agree with some of the stuff you post, but this is 100% spot on.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

Then he needs to take a hard look at the state of the game now because the issue has only gotten worse with time.

While I think Yoshi is a genius in all manner of design and project management, I think he struggles to properly design healing/tanking while trying to get to everything else. I wish he would realize he needs dedicated staffing for the healing and tanking roles.

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The worst part about it is imo that Tanking isnt traditionally seen as a DPS job yet they had no issues whatsoever overhauling the tank materia in a less undesireable stat, overhaul enmity mechanics and remove the Damage penalty on tanking stances in order to allow tanks to DPS and Defend. In fact if you look at their mitigation skills they are largely the same. What makes these tanks truly unique from another is the DPS rotation.

Why cant healers have that? AST, SCH and SGE are already perfectly positioned to rely solely on their OGCD's during fights, but the DPS rotations are literally identical between the jobs.

Not to mention YoshiP's argument is flawed. A poor performing healer is already being scolded at despite only having 2 buttons to press. I had a boosted WHM cohealer in Titania recently (not EX mind you) and we lost the DPS check, despite being overgeared, because they did nothing but Cure I spamming the entire time. They didnt even use Lucid so they went OOM as well.

This entire notion that Healing role should be designed around the weakest players is just silly in general imo. Maybe if the game had a better tutorial system, esp for boosted players, maybe there wouldnt be so many poor performing healers running around. Maybe Tanking would be more popular due to not having anxiety over if your healer is paying attention or not. Just some food for thought.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

High end encounters can be done without healing from healers, but we've designed a whole Job (WHM) around being the healer that heals more.

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I got some bad news about healing more mister lion.

They really need to just design healers to be DPS jobs with healing/mitigation skills

Give them a rotation comparable to a tank's rotation, shift all but 1 or 2 healing skills into the ogcd (We'll probably still need a spammable single target for wall to wall pulls) and make the few healing skills they have count (Stronger barriers, higher mitigation, amazing regen, longer lasting effects, etc)

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

This entire notion that Healing role should be designed around the weakest players is just silly in general imo. Maybe if the game had a better tutorial system, esp for boosted players, maybe there wouldnt be so many poor performing healers running around. Maybe Tanking would be more popular due to not having anxiety over if your healer is paying attention or not. Just some food for thought.

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100% this. In another thread discussing reworked LB, I explain that tanks should consume 1 bar, DPS 2, and healer 3. Healer is the most attentive chore between the 3 roles. It’s demand shows how valuable it is even to queue a dungeon. Healing is not for the weakest players and should not be catered to. Of all roles, the only time I’ve had a party member drop of their own volition was the healer because they understood they just didn’t cut it.. If anything tanking is for the weakest player, despite the reservations a newbie may have about leading the party. Run in, touch everything, and survive at the mercy of a healer is all a tank needs to understand in a dungeon at minimum. Nobody is even asking they do DPS optimally either- that’s the DPS’s job.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh
(EX Trial 1)

Say what you will but this shouldn't be happening IMHO this early into an expansion.

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Maybe it should. Didn't Yoshida double down on 3.x healer style not coming back? He called us out on what we wanted and said they like something that amounts to (my words not his) a design for people who don't like the combat system. It would be better that every fight be viable without healers. There is no need to let glare magery inflict its sorriness on two people out of eight.

(yeah my static died over this, I remain bitter)

The majority of these self-healing changes are there for beginner tanks who can't tolerate being at less than 70% HP before they start throwing things and shouting at the screen. It's not even skilled self-healing, where you press a button in a timed fashion to reverse X% of a big damage spike. It's like PLD and WAR have that cover-based shooter regen where they tick back to full health if they're not dead for a few seconds. It's terrible design for a trinity-based game, where you're supposed to depend on teamwork to win.