*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

There aether was immune sure, but the planet became nearly uninhabitable, their creation magicks birthed horrors unseen and it took a primal with half of their populations aether to contain it.
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It’s not that one is better, it’s that one leads to a world where people can handle struggle without turning to solutions that would falter or fail with time.

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And Zodiark fixed these side effects. The sundered Source is less aetherically dense, so should feel the effects of the Final Days much quicker than old Etheirys. My point was about Ancients surviving to the unmaking Meteion loves to use on the Scions.
Steps :
- Summon Zodiark to forestall the doom ;
- Make entelchy automatas to infuse dynamis with hope ;
- Go to where Meteion is, before she spends 12k+ years simmering in her despair ;
- Blast her.
- Go home, unsummon Zodiark, rejoice in duty fulfiled.

Obviously it's an oversimplification, but we will literaly never know if it could even have worked since Venat decided to sunder everything. I strongly hope it somehow branched into a split timeline where they tried.


And again, life *had* a solution when faced to despair, and it was to use their tools of creation to recreate their home. They didn't "give in" like other civilizations. If it ended up in another dead planet, what's the issue with that really.
Zodiark wasn't an easy solution, they had to make sacrifices for the instant bucks, or wait a long time to amass the aether.
Also, why would creation actually fail in time? It had worked for them for literally their whole existence until attacked. Zodiark lasted 12000 years and through the Sundering. If anything, it was 14 times overpowered at least.
If anything, I trust creation magic more than moon-rabbits interstellar drive and having heroes manage to use a power they never heard about 3 days before.

That is the main point most people are missing, at the end of the day Venat chose A solution, that does not mean it is THE ONLY solution.

When people are nigh immortal and thus have almost infinite amount of time, and hold the power of literal creation in their hand, that gives them a ton of time to experiment and perfect any kind of concept. That is the true power of the ancients, a power that is impossible to stop in theory so they needed ancients to have a flaw, the flaw was that due to how powerful they were they never had to deal with suffering and thus a simple tragedy broke them. Now if you were intelligent like many of the convocation they would agree with Venat that this flaw, needed to be fixed by incorporating a degree of controlled suffering as a literal concept they could create to serve such a purpose, and thus the Ancient society would have been improved and become even better. (Though I do feel the initial sacrifices for zodiarc did deserve the chance to experience that new world as well, wonder if it would be possible for people to return to Zodiarc as they complete their role so a previously sacrificed soul can return back)

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Originally Posted by Eylirria

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

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I completely agree, that the thing is Hydaelyn herself states this, she says the amount of suffering throughout the years was unbearable to watch, and it is understandable.

You go from a society that cares about improvement and making things better, is immortal and has the power of creation to literally sundered individuals who chose their own personal benefit over even an entire country, Uldah being a great example of suffering and greed, if your goal is truly to lessen suffering then clearly you have to agree rejoinings are a good thing.

You cant say you value life and support endless suffering at the same time, this hypocricy was revealed to be the core problem of hermes, when Fandaniel was happy and wanted to return to the star Hermes was angry and sad, his own selfish feelings on the matter were the problem and showed he didnt care about Fandaniel's wishes, only his feelings, as if he wants people to stay alive even if it means suffer so HE doesnt feel bad.


At least hydaelyn had a goal, she used that suffering as a tool to get to the end she planned for, even though I disagree and think there were far better options, it was still a solution to the problem which incorporates and justifies the suffering and I consider that good writing.

After all a good story is meant to be satisfying, not make extreme sense otherwise the bad guys would literally win 90% of the time in fictional stories.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Did you not stop and think what would happen if they came across negative emotions?" So that sort of implied that it would be a disaster, and nothing they could do would really counteract it.

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It was implied that it would be a disaster, even I thought of that when I met meiteion by thinking "Wooh if only she could meet Zenos".

But the fact that the ancients could create such complex entities with stealth abilities etc means they are in control of what they create, you can create an item instead that can control or channel dynamis, you can create a being with a very specific toolset so it is harmless to you and cant be turned against you yet can be used against meiteion.

The possibilities are endless, and that was the true power of the ancients, with enough creativity, time and their power, all problems could be solved.

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Originally Posted by Lium

they did in fact come up with something that could counter Meteion: Zodiark.

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That is false, specifically because Zodiark was not a creation to fight meiteion, it was a creation to solve a problem the ancients were not able to figure out yet, so his function was extremely complex since it wasnt as simple as "just quicken the celestial currents" something which I believe if they knew, it would require far less sacrifices.

Zodiarc instead had the function of understanding the problem the ancients did not and finding a solution to it, which to them obviously looks like a miracle since they never understood the cause of the final days.

But if they did, using their powers they could have found a solution.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

You can't say that from the amount of Ancients we met. Who's to say there isn't other people researching it? Even better : we know other people can, since the Elpis flower was created by another researcher by accident.
Hermes would just have to submit a concept of Meteion, and others could summon their own and improve on it.

The spots in the Convocations are not supposed to be for "uniqueness", but the best in their fields.
Hermes was picked for the seat of Fandaniel because he was an expert in extant phenomenas, of which dynamis and all things celestial.
Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch were candidates because they had the required trait, which is a great aether vision.

Finally, Meteion had free will, which is why she even could become the threat she was now. But entelechy without free will exist : again, the Elpis flower.
And we *literally* had the hope of hundreds of people at best, and 7 who died for us, which proved enough to stabilize Ultima Thule enough. I think a planet worth of hope should be enough.

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I can, in the formost place of study and creation of life, not one person bothered to research the Elpis flower, even the original creator. In unknown 1000s of years, Hermes was the only one ever to create something that used Dynamis and he intentionally left no records. He would not had submitted it after the events due to the fact he was all about that despair directly before the mind wipe and essentially forgot about the issue after the mind wipe.

They became the best in their fields because of a uniqueness. Hermes' drive and passion that made him unique is what made him an expert on the phenomena. Hythlodaeus unique aethersight, Hades' unique aethersight along with is uniquely immense aether amount. The Azems seem to be quite unique with their drive to help people and explore with a different overall view on life. Their uniqueness is what made them experts or stand out enough to get invited to the convocation.

Entelechy without free will is still susceptible to despair. Remember the flower literally dissolved due to the despair felt in Thavnir, despite being held by a person who is considered a beacon of hope.

Stabilized because of the ability for them to effect Dynamis and the free will to forcefully fight the despair.

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

You cant say you value life and support endless suffering at the same time, this hypocricy was revealed to be the core problem of hermes, when Fandaniel was happy and wanted to return to the star Hermes was angry and sad, his own selfish feelings on the matter were the problem and showed he didnt care about Fandaniel's wishes, only his feelings, as if he wants people to stay alive even if it means suffer so HE doesnt feel bad.

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You could actually argue that life only has meaning because their is suffering to go along with the hope. Life is endless suffering tempered by hope and a drive to live. As shown by The 3rd part off dead ends, that societies value of life disappeared as they removed all suffering.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

And Zodiark fixed these side effects. The sundered Source is less aetherically dense, so should feel the effects of the Final Days much quicker than old Etheirys. My point was about Ancients surviving to the unmaking Meteion loves to use on the Scions.
Steps :
- Summon Zodiark to forestall the doom ;
- Make entelchy automatas to infuse dynamis with hope ;
- Go to where Meteion is, before she spends 12k+ years simmering in her despair ;
- Blast her.
- Go home, unsummon Zodiark, rejoice in duty fulfiled.

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What hope? That all struggle can be solved with reliance on Zodiark? The6 we’re literally praying to him after he forestalled the Final Days. And what happens when they are faced with the myriad of civilizations that fell to despair one after another? How does hope reliant on the elimination of suffering respond to the Ea or the Omicron or any of the dozens of civilizations that did not just accept death, but actively wanted it? She would unmake them as they arrive, or worse, the entelechys automatas (which doesn’t work, they have to be living beings to be emotional) may even find Meteion to be correct. In the time needed to develop the technologies and travel, Meteions song of oblivion would reign supreme.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Obviously it's an oversimplification, but we will literaly never know if it could even have worked since Venat decided to sunder everything. I strongly hope it somehow branched into a split timeline where they tried.

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She sundered everything to force the question. Despair and suffering cannot be escaped, summoning a being to fix all your problems is avoidance.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

And again, life *had* a solution when faced to despair, and it was to use their tools of creation to recreate their home. They didn't "give in" like other civilizations. If it ended up in another dead planet, what's the issue with that really.
Zodiark wasn't an easy solution, they had to make sacrifices for the instant bucks, or wait a long time to amass the aether.
Also, why would creation actually fail in time? It had worked for them for literally their whole existence until attacked. Zodiark lasted 12000 years and through the Sundering. If anything, it was 14 times overpowered at least.
If anything, I trust creation magic more than moon-rabbits interstellar drive and having heroes manage to use a power they never heard about 3 days before.

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No they don’t have an answer. Being unwilling to accept suffering and anything less than “paradise” would give rise to the next Hermes. Suffering exists, it must be faced. Sacrificing more lives to bring back ones lost isn’t wisdom, it’s weakness.

Because aether works on a world that runs on aether, unlike 2/3 of the rest of existence. And it’s a power they’ve interacted with and used for much longer than that. As opposed to the Ancients who would lack the ability to see or interact with Meteion at all.

No, besides he was tempered, verrrry tempered considering how things were revealed on Endwalker vs what he told us.

it feels like we will never convince each other.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

it feels like we will never convince each other.

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How very appropriate!

Pretty sure the easy conclusion you can come to is that the Ancients and their perfection would have ended up as the final civilization in the dead ends dungeon. Even Hermes makes a comment on what would they do once they've created a perfect world. So even if you helped Emet-Selch, brought back the Ancients, it would end in them all wanting to die anyways. By sundering and making life short and full of hardship, it also by extension created the desire to live and give it value. That's the gist anyhow. Long story short, even if the Final Days was prevented back in pre-sundering, there was no happy ending

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

Pretty sure the easy conclusion you can come to is that the Ancients and their perfection would have ended up as the final civilization in the dead ends dungeon. Even Hermes makes a comment on what would they do once they've created a perfect world. So even if you helped Emet-Selch, brought back the Ancients, it would end in them all wanting to die anyways. By sundering and making life short and full of hardship, it also by extension created the desire to live and give it value. That's the gist anyhow. Long story short, even if the Final Days was prevented back in pre-sundering, there was no happy ending

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How do you know? I don't recall it being said the ancients sought "perfection". From what we saw they were continually seeking to improve their world. Each person seeking their life's purpose before returning to the star. To persist beyond their purpose's fulfilment was considered unseemly. That does not sound like the same ennui suffered by the third dead end.

Perhaps by the time Venat became Hydaelyn and sundered the world they had reached their own dead end. Devastated by tragedy; seeking only to reclaim what was lost and with the power to accomplish it. But before that they could have become anything.

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

Pretty sure the easy conclusion you can come to is that the Ancients and their perfection would have ended up as the final civilization in the dead ends dungeon. Even Hermes makes a comment on what would they do once they've created a perfect world. So even if you helped Emet-Selch, brought back the Ancients, it would end in them all wanting to die anyways. By sundering and making life short and full of hardship, it also by extension created the desire to live and give it value. That's the gist anyhow. Long story short, even if the Final Days was prevented back in pre-sundering, there was no happy ending

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I think that's a possible ending to the Ancient society, and certainly one that it doesn't reject, but I do think more likely is that Ancient wold would burn itself out completely.

A big argument against the Zodiark plan in the 5.2 Anamnesis cutscene is that it's unsustainable; at the point of that recording they're up to a third summoning of Zodiark (with the post-Elpis flashback being the second, which we previously heard about from Hythlodaeus in 5.0). At that point it's becoming a cycle, becoming clear that every problem will be solved by sacrificing to Zodiark, and that's why Hydaelyn gets summoned. Sure, that could conceivably land in an emotionally dead paradise, but more realistically I'm picturing, some unclear amount of time down the line, the entire planet being dead save for one person, because everything else was sacrificed for the sake of 'the survivors living in peace' for so long that there's no longer any smaller numbers to divide into.