Assize should have second charge

If we're bottoming out of mana in 7 minutes, it won't make a difference if you blow Assize on cd or not. Your overall mana income over the fight is the same. You'll empty in 7+ minutes regardless.

You'll still get to use it as a heal cooldown until you approach that 7 minute end point. Assize having charges will not make the problem worse, you don't lose any mana, but it will make small QoL improvements.

WHM of course has a whole range of other issues, including mana economy, but that's another discussion.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

If we're bottoming out of mana in 7 minutes, it won't make a difference if you blow Assize on cd or not. Your overall mana income over the fight is the same. You'll empty in 7+ minutes regardless.

You'll still get to use it as a heal cooldown until you approach that 7 minute end point. Assize having charges will not make the problem worse, you don't lose any mana, but it will make small QoL improvements.

WHM of course has a whole range of other issues, including mana economy, but that's another discussion.

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So if we're not here to discuss the suggestion in depth, there is no point of this topic other than karma farming. So why would the Dev team even consider the change if there's no valid reasoning other than the fact it addresses all of 1 issue with WHM? They could remove the damage and MP restore from Assize and solve the same issue.

"But that's not a good idea because X".

"Don't care, that's another discussion."

It doesn't work, does it?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

So if we're not here to discuss the suggestion in depth, there is no point of this topic other than karma farming. So why would the Dev team even consider the change if there's no valid reasoning other than the fact it addresses all of 1 issue with WHM? They could remove the damage and MP restore from Assize and solve the same issue.

"But that's not a good idea because X".

"Don't care, that's another discussion."

It doesn't work, does it?

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the suggestion was more on the lines of
"charges on benison are kind of pointless, charges on assize would be so much better", not so much "giving charges to assize would fix everything with whm"

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

So if we're not here to discuss the suggestion in depth, there is no point of this topic other than karma farming. So why would the Dev team even consider the change if there's no valid reasoning other than the fact it addresses all of 1 issue with WHM? They could remove the damage and MP restore from Assize and solve the same issue.

"But that's not a good idea because X".

"Don't care, that's another discussion."

It doesn't work, does it?

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This seems weird to me. Adding a charge to Assize means you get to use it once more in a duty than before. Maybe twice with sufficient downtime in phase transitions. An extra 5% mp was never going to be an answer for the MP economy of the job so Im not sure why you keep harping on that. This thread wasn't about how to fix WHM MP Economy. That would take a host of changes from Mana cost reductions on spells to new innovative ways to conserve and generate mp. Assize gaining a charge in isolation does none of that. WHM MP economy is literally another discussion altogether. You keep bringing it up like it should somehow be considered as a reason not to give a charge to Assize which literally only helps minutely with MP. Im not sure why you're clinging to this so doggedly. There are multiple threads about how negative the nerf to Thin Air is going to be and that seems like a much more fitting place to dive in to WHM MP Economy in depth.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

This seems weird to me. Adding a charge to Assize means you get to use it once more in a duty than before. Manybe twice with sufficient downtime in phase transitions. An extra 5% mp was never going to be an answer for the MP economy of the job so Im not sure why you keep harping on that. This thread wasn't about how to fix WHM MP Economy. That would take a host of changes from Mana cost reductions on spells to new innovative ways to conserve and generate mp. Assize gaining a charge in isolation does none of that. WHM MP economy is literally another discussion altogether. You keep bringing it up like it should somehow be considered as a reason not to give a charge to Assize which literally only helps minutely with MP. Im not sure why you're clinging to this so doggedly. There are multiple threads about how negative the nerf to Thin Air is going to be and that seems like a much more fitting place to dive in to WHM MP Economy in depth.

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Ok, if the MP argument would be ignored, how about the impact this type of change would do the the Lily System?

Rapture is currently the most used Heal that a WHM utilizes in the current savage tier and after researching how much damage a 2nd stack of Assize would grant (insignificant amount of 0.004%) it also became obvious that Assize would pretty much remove about 4-5 casts of Rapture in a fight, where the average number of casts ranges from 12-16 on average. Since the Lily System is already getting indirectly nerfed by the potency increase to Glare as well as the cast time changes, this type of change would pretty much make an already niche system even more so. Misery would need to be DPS neutral in order for the Lily System to continue to be used but in that case, the need for a 2nd charge of Assize for healing is pretty much negated, leaving only the damage gain as the only benefit and you could gain that from a second charge of any skill really, like Benison.

I don't see a lot if value in the 2nd charge. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Rapture is currently the most used Heal that a WHM utilizes in the current savage tier and after researching how much damage a 2nd stack of Assize would grant (insignificant amount of 0.004%) it also became obvious that Assize would pretty much remove about 4-5 casts of Rapture in a fight, where the average number of casts ranges from 12-16 on average.

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That is the entire point of giving a charge to assize. its to let it be used as a dps neutral healing tool. lilies are a dps loss on a job whose only contribution is personal damage because it has no raid buffs. cutting on lily uses is a good thing

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Since the Lily System is already getting indirectly nerfed by the potency increase to Glare as well as the cast time changes, this type of change would pretty much make an already niche system even more so.

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lilies will always have this problem regardless because you fundamentally *dont* want to use them outside of downtime. even if misery was buffed to be dps neutral you would still want to burn them in downtime if possible

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Misery would need to be DPS neutral in order for the Lily System to continue to be used but in that case, the need for a 2nd charge of Assize for healing is pretty much negated

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thatd be encounter dependent. if fights barely need healing then yes, but if theres enough danage to necessitate rapture and another heal then the extra healing is much appreciated

it just to happens that the devs are too scared to make healers actually heal in anything that isnt ultimate, but that doesnt mean healing utility is bad

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Originally Posted by QooEr

lilies will always have this problem regardless because you fundamentally *dont* want to use them outside of downtime. even if misery was buffed to be dps neutral you would still want to burn them in downtime if possible

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Not always, will be heavily dependent on how big outgoing damage is in relation to your MP, and if oGCDs can cover it. If not, lilies are great at just conserving MP if Misery becomes DPS neutral since you're essentially not spending any MP on 3 GCDs worth of heals (1000 MP per Cure II & Medica equivalent) + 4 GCDs worth of Glares (1200 MP). In total, that's getting 4200 worth of MP over 4 GCDs as opposed to just spending 1200 MP or 3000 MP. That's pretty big on MP changes. Heck, even if you do blow your lilies up, even using Misery is technically saving 400 MP since it replaces a Glare on the GCD. It's just a really roundabout way in affecting our MP.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Not always, will be heavily dependent on how big outgoing damage is in relation to your MP, and if oGCDs can cover it. If not, lilies are great at just conserving MP if Misery becomes DPS neutral since you're essentially not spending any MP on 3 GCDs worth of heals (1000 MP per Cure II & Medica equivalent) + 4 GCDs worth of Glares (1200 MP). In total, that's getting 4200 worth of MP over 4 GCDs as opposed to just spending 1200 MP or 3000 MP. That's pretty big on MP changes. Heck, even if you do blow your lilies up, even using Misery is technically saving 400 MP since it replaces a Glare on the GCD. It's just a really roundabout way in affecting our MP.

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Something to consider in that factor, they're buffing the potency on Healer's GCD toolkits in EW. All of WHM's oGCD heals will now be weaker than their GCD counterparts so Assize will heal less than Medica/Rapture and Tetra will now heal less than Cure 2/Solace so its even less likely that your oGCDs will cover it.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Not always, will be heavily dependent on how big outgoing damage is in relation to your MP, and if oGCDs can cover it. If not, lilies are great at just conserving MP if Misery becomes DPS neutral since you're essentially not spending any MP on 3 GCDs worth of heals (1000 MP per Cure II & Medica equivalent) + 4 GCDs worth of Glares (1200 MP). In total, that's getting 4200 worth of MP over 4 GCDs as opposed to just spending 1200 MP or 3000 MP. That's pretty big on MP changes. Heck, even if you do blow your lilies up, even using Misery is technically saving 400 MP since it replaces a Glare on the GCD. It's just a really roundabout way in affecting our MP.

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It is why I would want to see Misery becoming DPS neutral myself. Having GCD healing abilities that doesn't cost the WHM DPS in the grand scheme of things would help make them unique in that regard plus it will help with the potential mana issues.

Maybe we can just bake in mana regen with lilies? Make misery dps neutral, give it like 10%-15% mana regen and give solace and rapture 5%-10% mana regen.