Machinist needs help.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Ahhh it’s almost like the good ole times of stormblood in this thread, when mch’s were truly well and screwed.

I doubt any criticism will be taken note of before 6.0, like with most reworks mch is half done. We wont see the full result of the mch rework until Endwalker. Mch definitely has it’s issues, but I want to see the rework finished before i start listing the myriad of issues.

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Here's a better reason:
Topics like this exist since 5.0.
WAR in 4.0 complained about Shake it off, it used to... Remove a debuff. It was quickly changed in the next patches.
SMN and NIN were a mess and rework in the next patches.
MNK had Anatman, it took a patch to change it and full rework at 5.4. Wether you like the changes or not doesn't matter, it's the amount of work put on it that matters.
SAMs called out Shoha as a crappy ability. Rework next patch.

MCH asked for an Overheat button since 4.0 and got it in 5.0.
MCH pointed out that Barrel Stabilizer was poorly designed and Flamethrower is crap, it's the end of the expansion and no dev lifted a finger. BRD is in a weird position and they asked for a second charge on bloodletter.
If you practice the rotation once, Heat management problem and BS desynch jumps to the eyes.

Topic like this exists since 5.0 and MCH was not touched at all, they only tweaked a few potencies and fixed Reassemble because they completely went over the fact that it was incompatible with skillspeed.
The simple fact that Flamethrower exists, that the Single Target rotation remains the same from 66 to 80 shows how they did not put the necessary resources in the rework.

I don't even feel like these forums are read at all.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Here's a better reason:
Topics like this exist since 5.0.
WAR in 4.0 complained about Shake it off, it used to... Remove a debuff. It was quickly changed in the next patches.
SMN and NIN were a mess and rework in the next patches.
MNK had Anatman, it took a patch to change it and full rework at 5.4. Wether you like the changes or not doesn't matter, it's the amount of work put on it that matters.
SAMs called out Shoha as a crappy ability. Rework next patch.

MCH asked for an Overheat button since 4.0 and got it in 5.0.
MCH pointed out that Barrel Stabilizer was poorly designed and Flamethrower is crap, it's the end of the expansion and no dev lifted a finger. BRD is in a weird position and they asked for a second charge on bloodletter.
If you practice the rotation once, Heat management problem and BS desynch jumps to the eyes.

Topic like this exists since 5.0 and MCH was not touched at all, they only tweaked a few potencies and fixed Reassemble because they completely went over the fact that it was incompatible with skillspeed.
The simple fact that Flamethrower exists, that the Single Target rotation remains the same from 66 to 80 shows how they did not put the necessary resources in the rework.

I don't even feel like these forums are read at all.

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Correction. Topics like this have existed since 3.0. They became prevalent in 4.0 and throughout 4.x when mch was a train wreck of a job that hardly anyone touched, and persist through 5.x because mch is not complete and does still need work

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Correction. Topics like this have existed since 3.0. They became prevalent in 4.0 and throughout 4.x when mch was a train wreck of a job that hardly anyone touched, and persist through 5.x because mch is not complete and does still need work

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I know its wrong cuz ive been told its wrong

this happens to all jobs they cry and yell "broken clunky bad" and the community follows suit. As such every popular opinion is treated as fact. Honestly SB MCH i find superior to whatere the hell MCH is in SHB, more so since its a beta job "not yet complete" unlike every other job. Turrets werent shackled down, the burst phase was far more engaged the cool down phase has more layers. The one monster in the room is its horrible progression kit which makes or breaks jobs and why so many BLM mains leave mid level. Late bloomers. Aswell as some other frustrations like a aoe being so dam vital for a kit and being the last thing u unlock, Its sadly a hot take but in my eyes its easier to fix SB kit than to breathe any life to SHB nonsocial mind numbing button mashing.

My best guess why its so untouched is its reception as positive which i pray isnt the case, which means itll be just as untouched in EW when its malnourished and in desperate need for some context and layers

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Hard disagree.

Machinist feels awful in dungeons.

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sadly i agree, its Aoe kit is just as wonky and off handed as its ST kit

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Originally Posted by Jirah

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One thing we can agree on is the turret just not feeling great and it should go back to being something out all the time. Don't even need to get rid of the battery gauge just have the battery gauge be used to buff the turret or something. Can even bring back promotion to switch the turret from ST to Aoe. Idk just feel like they could do more by doing hw/sb turret style over shb style.

What I just can't agree with is that SB mch burst phase was more engaging and that cooldown phase had more layers. Shb burst is literally just as engaging as sb burst if not more engaging because of heat blast refreshing gauss and ricochet, since it's the same only you wait longer to do it. The problem is that wild fire is not that interesting in general and should be worked on. Shb mch also is a better base to go off of since you can do way more with the shb heat gauge compared to sb heat gauge. Can also do more with hypercharge if they wanted to give mch it's cast times back.

And yes it probably wasn't touched since the data showed them ppl played it often.

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

One thing we can agree on is the turret just not feeling great and it should go back to being something out all the time. Don't even need to get rid of the battery gauge just have the battery gauge be used to buff the turret or something. Can even bring back promotion to switch the turret from ST to Aoe. Idk just feel like they could do more by doing hw/sb turret style over shb style.

What I just can't agree with is that SB mch burst phase was more engaging and that cooldown phase had more layers. Shb burst is literally just as engaging as sb burst if not more engaging because of heat blast refreshing gauss and ricochet, since it's the same only you wait longer to do it. The problem is that wild fire is not that interesting in general and should be worked on. Shb mch also is a better base to go off of since you can do way more with the shb heat gauge compared to sb heat gauge. Can also do more with hypercharge if they wanted to give mch it's cast times back.

And yes it probably wasn't touched since the data showed them ppl played it often.

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The turret, or Automaton Queen today, feels bad I agree. It should have more presence and more different usages.
For now, it's fill the gauge and empty it. The only good interaction with the Queen is that we choose when it is summoned.

SB Wildfire... Itself it's not interesting, it's the context in which it was used.
Doing the combo at 1.5s GCD was fun and satisfying. The problem was that everything was cramed into that combo. Rapidfire? Always for the combo. Reassemble? Always for the combo. Only ammos, GR and rng procs were outside that window from memory. ShB rework was necessary as you pointed out, the heat gauge was not a good gauge and ammo gauge... You would need quite the imagination to develop upon, maybe new types of ammos?

If you look at popularity vote, MCH is popular among the casuals.
When it comes to raiding, it's among the least popular.
This can be explained by the low skill floor and the low skill ceiling. One thing they could do to satisfy as much people as possible is to keep the low skill floor but raise the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The turret, or Automaton Queen today, feels bad I agree. It should have more presence and more different usages.
For now, it's fill the gauge and empty it. The only good interaction with the Queen is that we choose when it is summoned.

SB Wildfire... Itself it's not interesting, it's the context in which it was used.
Doing the combo at 1.5s GCD was fun and satisfying. The problem was that everything was cramed into that combo. Rapidfire? Always for the combo. Reassemble? Always for the combo. Only ammos, GR and rng procs were outside that window from memory. ShB rework was necessary as you pointed out, the heat gauge was not a good gauge and ammo gauge... You would need quite the imagination to develop upon, maybe new types of ammos?

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I think this was the point, but I agree even then MCH had fat to its kit, Gauss barrel could’ve very easily been a trait, rapid fire removed and tied to overheating and Heartbreak and Blank were scarcely used.

Going back to SHB, Heat is much more shallow being a generic 50 point affair and being a lot more restrictive with its imagination (alot of people like the weave phase, I for one find it incredibly toothless) it’s speed is essentially gone replaced solely by heat blast and mashing ogcds. And it’s downtime is the most boring loop in all of FF14 with nothing to do but 1-2-3 until
Heat is up, or one of many press-it-and-forget it skills

SB was more on preparation and set up with a phase centered around wildfire, SHB has no center and the defense that “it’s not complete” is a stupid argument, at the very least they could’ve tied Auto-Cross to the spam phase or have flamethrower fine heat instead of twinddling their numbs for 2 years.

Maybe it’ll all change in EW, the radicalness of Sb gone and the reductiveness of shb erased for the best incarnation....or it’ll get worse or stagnate while other jobs get improved, ima take a guess on which is more likely and just hope the blight that happened to MCH stays with MCH and doesn’t spread to other jobs

Can't say I disagree, if the job don't change I'm not going to keep playing it for another 2 years of boredom.

There is many issues to fix and I just hope they fix one. It's boring, it has little responsibilities and casters have more utility than ranged, you know the role that was supposed to be the Support DPS.
We have the shotgun animation and we can almost be certain it's an AoE and it could be tied to Spreadshot as a combo or the AoE version of Air Anchor.

They started the reveal with another AoE (the shotgun), it's honestly not looking good. ShB is a good base but that's the problem, it's a base while other jobs like DRG, NIN, GNB, BLM have something built upon it.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Can't say I disagree, if the job don't change I'm not going to keep playing it for another 2 years of boredom.

There is many issues to fix and I just hope they fix one. It's boring, it has little responsibilities and casters have more utility than ranged, you know the role that was supposed to be the Support DPS.
We have the shotgun animation and we can almost be certain it's an AoE and it could be tied to Spreadshot as a combo or the AoE version of Air Anchor.

They started the reveal with another AoE, it's honestly not looking good. ShB is a good base but that's the problem, it's a base while other jobs like DRG, NIN, GNB, BLM have something built upon it.

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What other aoe? I didn’t know this? From the Benchmark all I can see was the shotgun aoe (a loner skill that will blend nicely with bio/flamethrower/ricochet as the skills that don’t interact) somesort of heatblast and Clean shot for some reason.

Not that I’m interested, aoes aren’t somthing to be excited over, much less MCH since it’s issues with fragmented skills are very much a issue and adding more of them would be a massive waste of creativity

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Can't say I disagree, if the job don't change I'm not going to keep playing it for another 2 years of boredom.

There is many issues to fix and I just hope they fix one. It's boring, it has little responsibilities and casters have more utility than ranged, you know the role that was supposed to be the Support DPS.
We have the shotgun animation and we can almost be certain it's an AoE and it could be tied to Spreadshot as a combo or the AoE version of Air Anchor.

They started the reveal with another AoE, it's honestly not looking good. ShB is a good base but that's the problem, it's a base while other jobs like DRG, NIN, GNB, BLM have something built upon it.

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The shotgun and bards new arrow attack are probably gonna replace spread shot and quick noct not combo with them. My only hope they give it back cast times and actually lean into its selfish dps of phys range nature. With hypercharge you can allow them to be able to bypass the cast times and possibly even gain access to new ability. Now that they actually have a good base for it i think they can make it less bland (even though they probably wont give the turret back to the way it was in hw/sb).

I'd also say shb MCH is in the same boat as MNK, both are good bases and can be expanded on very easily. Meanwhile on the other side of the spectrum BLM and DRG are starting to stagnate and is kinda at a breaking point when it comes to what they can add to it that's exciting or big. Of the two sides it's kinda better to be on the strong base with a lot of room to grow side even if its boring for a time. Though thats just my opinion as someone who plays all the jobs XD

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Originally Posted by Jirah

What other aoe? I didn’t know this? From the Benchmark all I can see was the shotgun aoe (a loner skill that will blend nicely with bio/flamethrower/ricochet as the skills that don’t interact) somesort of heatblast and Clean shot for some reason.

Not that I’m interested, aoes aren’t somthing to be excited over, much less MCH since it’s issues with fragmented skills are very much a issue and adding more of them would be a massive waste of creativity

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The heat blast is probably the same heatblast and the cleanshot animation is probably just an animation reuse