FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

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Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

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But already do this. Classes have skills that are there to be used when appropriated. If I queue with my friend as tank and healer and decided to pull wall to wall a DPS not using their AoE rotation, made easier during this last expansion, is not playing at the basic standard set by the game itself.

In short, refusing to use the skills your class has (included cross-class skills) is refusing to play at the standard level set by the game. Using all your kit is just that a healer refusing to do use DPS skills when appropriated is as bad as any DPS refusing to use Feint/Addle.

Anyway, the pointless discussion IMO. Anyone caring enough about this issue should stick to play with in-game friends, randoms will be randoms, particularly in a game where devs are aware of the skills floor problem and are actively trying to fix it by simplifying existing jobs and making the new ones very newbie-friendly.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Anyway, the pointless discussion IMO.

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Indeed it is.
When content is so trivial in nature (e.g. Dungeons/24mans/normal primals), it's borderline idiotic to make a fuss about player performance, let alone kicking people for not measuring up to your made-up standard.

Keep such aspirations to content where it matters and just roll with what you get in the DF tool.
After all, you are rewarded with currency for dragging pretty much anything with 2 feet through the content.

Personally, I stopped getting worked up over lame player performance a long time ago. Just not worth my time unless the content demands it.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I don't give a Qiqirn's rear end about SUBJECTIVE COMMUNITY STANDARDS in a discussion like this.

90% of the time, these standards are completely overblown to the point of pointlessness. Trust me, I've seen enough groups in WoW mandate better gear than the boss in question could drop.

This was a question about objective standards and the only objective standard is set by the game itself. If the boss goes down with a "heal only" healer, than that means he has done enough as far as the game is concerned.

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

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You aren't the judge of objective standards any more than SE is.

You're confusing objectivity with the idea of catering to the lowest possible skill level. They are most definitely not the same thing.

I will continue to kick or at the very least not carry bad players who don't take advice. I've been doing it for years, I've had zero negative interactions with GMs. Maybe Yoshida himself agrees with you but functionally the people actually involved in the moderation of the game appear not to.

The game doesn't make any decision. It doesn't say "everyone lived, the healer did enough" like you seem to think. The game just responds to us. If the other players in a group agree that they dont want a freeloader then off that person goes... and trust me, plenty of groups of randoms are perfectly fine with kicking dead weight \o/

I see people like this everywhere. They are terrified of anything different. They demand everyone be exactly like themselves. I have a good analogy but due to its basis, it has no place on these forums. I'll take whatever players the game gives me and work with it. It's very rare that I have any real issues with player performance.

There was one time I can recall in a savage fight I was doing, where performance does indeed matter. One player kept really screwing up the mechs and would spend a good deal of each attempt dead. He admitted his mistakes, apologized, and removed himself from the party on his own, problem solved.

In things like dungeons though, who really cares? As many have said, those don't have that high of a difficulty. There is no reason for the high level play these people always seem to expect. Just because it takes 5 minutes longer than you want doesn't mean it's the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Indeed it is.
When content is so trivial in nature (e.g. Dungeons/24mans/normal primals), it's borderline idiotic to make a fuss about player performance, let alone kicking people for not measuring up to your made-up standard.

Keep such aspirations to content where it matters and just roll with what you get in the DF tool.
After all, you are rewarded with currency for dragging pretty much anything with 2 feet through the content.

Personally, I stopped getting worked up over lame player performance a long time ago. Just not worth my time unless the content demands it.

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I see your point, however dungeons/24mans/normal primals compromises most of the content, its trivial in the difficulty aspect but they are important since said content is something everyone will do. Stopped caring is a fair assessment one that fits both your answer to this and the problem people have with others. People stopped caring, or frankly they never gave a damn which is why this "phenomenon" is mostly seen here. Its just a bunch of people who dont give a shit acting like they do, bringing up ridiculous scenarios like the rest are dumb enough to buy it. It is fitting considering this said discussion is a troll attempt , who could have known that those who take the baits take it for a reason im not going to ommit (thanks ToS).
The only thing i will say is SE is at fault for this situation, cause instead of putting a decent tutorial they simplified everything, this just allows for the excuse of "its still too hard" to exist which is why they made easy mode for solo instances. A tutorial would cut all of this crap down. Cause then if someone had done the tutorial and still wanted to freestyle you would immediately know they are intentionally trolling, could tie it in a way that once you finish it you lose the sprout status.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Indeed it is.
When content is so trivial in nature (e.g. Dungeons/24mans/normal primals), it's borderline idiotic to make a fuss about player performance, let alone kicking people for not measuring up to your made-up standard.

Keep such aspirations to content where it matters and just roll with what you get in the DF tool.
After all, you are rewarded with currency for dragging pretty much anything with 2 feet through the content.

Personally, I stopped getting worked up over lame player performance a long time ago. Just not worth my time unless the content demands it.

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Is a social game. If you are in a party and 3 of 4 members don't want to rush they are on their right to kick the other one. The same applies to the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The game doesn't make any decision. It doesn't say "everyone lived, the healer did enough" like you seem to think.

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Heh, someone doesn't know how mathematics work.
You meet the enrage timer despite every DPS playing at their classes limit?
-> The game just told you that the healer needs to DPS.

You kill the boss despite the healer not DPSing and everyone only having appropriate gear?
-> The game clearly has not been tuned with healer DPS in mind, ergo it is unnecessary to defeat the content.

You can wiggle around as much as you want, the undeniable fact is you have 2 standards:
1. Objective: what the game demands, mathematically, in order for the players to win.
2. Subjective: more commonly known as "community set standards" which is usually way above what the game actually demands in terms of player engagement.

If the game lets people defeat content with the healer being semi AFK due to not DPSing (since there is not much healing required), I wouldn't blame that on the lazy player. I would argue that the content is tuned to lax.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Is a social game. If you are in a party and 3 of 4 members don't want to rush they are on their right to kick the other one. The same applies to the other way around.

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Yup, some people just need to set arbitrary standards in order to feel better about themselves in a video game.

If I have such clear demands for my group, I would not use the DF tool. It is not the fault of the randomly assigned player that he does not live up to your imaginary standard.
IMHO, kicking such a player for no other reason (no wipes, impolite behavior etc) is what I would call (and I hate that term) toxic elitism.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

I see your point, however dungeons/24mans/normal primals compromises most of the content, its trivial in the difficulty aspect but they are important since said content is something everyone will do. Stopped caring is a fair assessment one that fits both your answer to this and the problem people have with others.

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Do not presume to judge me. You will fail.
I play every group content as if it was a savage raid: 100% attention and the best performance I am able to give.
To me, it's a matter of politeness to give it my all, when our collective butts are on the line.

Only exception: derp runs among friends.

Which is worse? Losing a couple of minutes in a dungeon run and being mad about it or losing hours on forums complaining about it?

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Originally Posted by Novae

losing hours on forums complaining about it?

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Honestly, that seems to be the OP's full-time job...

I’ve always thought the more extreme/savage content were additional things to appeal to people that like that (as is crafting, big fishing, pvp etc).

The core focus of this game was clearly casual although the dungeon mechanics have picked up a lot more in recent times as a result of the players skill increasing - most dungeons/duty’s get cleared fine.

I don’t think we’ll see it get much harder than this outside of savage/extreme stuff.