Tanking in FF14 question

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

From this expansion so far, yes.
IF they change it, it wont be till next expansion (theres no way they would. they think the only way to improve tanking/healing is over simplification. rather than just making an easy to play tank, and hard to play tank (and others being any range between)

EDIT: currently at your level. (Later levels varies, but is semi close, as your complexity is mostly in single target, but PLD i believe has the most "in depth" AoE option at max level.)

---

Hmm, I wold say DRK, is the most in Depth AOE rotation.

PLD is:

Physical phase: (Total Eclipse > Prominence) > Spell Phase: (Req > Holy Circle (x4) > Confiteor) then fit Circle of Scorn in between GCDs.

You can't buff spell phase with FOF, so beyond that, your AOE spam will be (Total Eclipse > Prominence) with FOF when available. It's an easy AOE rotation. The only other thing you are juggling is your Defensive CDs.

DRK has a similar pattern with a 2-step AOE combo (Unleash > Stalwart Soul), and a high damage 5-hit spam (Quietus) with Delirium (similar to PLDs 5-hit spell spam). Beyond that, DRK should be using Salted Earth's dot damage which is only 5 ticks and you can definitely get 4 if not all 5 ticks in before the mobs die in high end dungeons. So that's an additional 300 potency per add. Then there's Abyssal Drain which is 200 potency per add WITH a heal, so very valuable in large mob pulls. Any additional Quietus are Gauge spenders, not MP spenders so you still have Flood Of Shadow to spam on all adds for 300 potency per add. It's hit box is very expanded so even though it is considered a "straight line" AOE you can still hit adds beside and behind you. Lastly, there's Blood Weapon which restores Gauge and MP at the same time.

So imo, I would say DRK has a lot more depth going on than any other tank job as far AOE rotations go :)

Tank since 2014 Here,

It's true Tank jobs have been made easier. But so have all other roles too (Healer/DPS). Tanks took the biggest hit for sure.

I will say you relatively low level and won;t see any good action until Level 50. But even then PLD is still somewhat boring. Every 10 levels up to 80 will give you certain Weapon Skills and Traits that make the job more engaging. I would suggest to get to Level 80 before you come to your final conclusion on tanking. I do have all 4 tanks leveled to 80 and Raid at Savage level with all 4 of them, even though the Materia specs are off (Warrior job issue xD, so PLD, is probably the easiest most straight forward Tank right now. When I raid on PLD I don't have to think about my rotation, unless there is an emergency situation. Not the same for the other 3 tanks xD.

It's good to see that you are starting to enjoy yourself more as you progress, Gramlite. The low levels might feel a bit slow at first, but you will eventually get more off globals and more stuff. I have already posted the GCD rotations earlier for both AoE and Single target.

As for the WoW Paladin, the balancing there is a bit different compared to FF14. I never did play WoW Classic during the time, but I do hear that the Warrior was the tank period. Paladin and Druid were mostly for off tanking or off role stuff. They supplemented buffs to the other main roles like blessings and innervate for mana regen. As for retail version, we have to grind a cloak, a necklace and essences to slot in the necklace. We have to get the Strength of the Warden essence to be allowed to AoE taunt >.> Icy Veins suggests we PvP and get the reputation vendors up from the later 2 patches for some of the best ones.

The Paladin tank in WoW is something like this.

Pull with Avenger Shield and / or Judgement
Drop Consecrate ground AoE

Then it runs into a priority system of which one hits the hardest or grants the best survival. I will just list the base spells since the Azerite Necklace Essences and talent system can alter it sometimes.

Judgment
Avenger Shield
Consecrate (if you need to move it or it fades)
Hammer of the Righteous
Consecrate

The rotation here is almost the same for both single target and AoE.
Shield of the Righteous is an off global and hits everything in front of them. It additionally reduces damage they take for a few seconds.
They also have Light of the Protector to heal themselves or another ally. Last I recall, it uses the GCD.
Judgment casts reduce the cooldown of Shield of the Righteous. Critical hits reduce the cooldown timer more.

What you said was kind of right, Maeka. The Cataclysm expansion used to use Holy Power for the Paladin tanks. Only the DPS Paladins use it now. The Healer and Tank just use a cooldown timer with ways to reset it or reduce it now. You are right the WoW Players complain about how boring Druid is for tanking. They basically have Mangle, Thrash, Moonfire, then Maul or Swipe as a filler. Again, it is the same for both AoE and Single Target.

Hopefully this will feel relevant enough to simply make a comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

I was never a fan of DPS having to slow down because of poorly balanced aggro management systems.

---

That is/never was a thing ever. Shirk existed, diversion existed, Lucid dreaming existed. DPS have hate dumps and ways to drop you. You just didn't like DPS having responsibilities other than 'ME DPS ME HIT THING DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRR"

I have seen DPS rip aggro off the tanks before in previous expansion times for dungeons. The aggro dumps helped, but the SAM were still catching back up mid fight with a more freshly geared tank in a leveling roulette. The SAM players were asking for a secondary threat dump to something like Third Eye -> Merciful Eyes. Even then, this suggestion might not have helped too much because the boss might still rotate to the SAM with a cleave casting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tigore

I have seen DPS rip aggro off the tanks before in previous expansion times for dungeons. The aggro dumps helped, but the SAM were still catching back up mid fight with a more freshly geared tank in a leveling roulette. The SAM players were asking for a secondary threat dump to something like Third Eye -> Merciful Eyes. Even then, this suggestion might not have helped too much because the boss might still rotate to the SAM with a cleave casting.

---

... Yeah and they got that hate dump in Third Eye to Merciful. It was a pretty major hate dump... if a SAM after the third eye change was ripping hate off the Tank 1 of two things were happening
1) Tank just straight up sucked
2) SAM had the tools but didn't use the tools.

This is coming from a SAM main in SB before I went Tank, SAM after the buff had 0 issues with hate, in fact I was the lowest generally in gameplay cause it was best to just merciful eyes every raid wide AoE anyways.

Is that so? I had been absent for a year during Stormblood, so some details seemed to have eluded me. That Mage Tower in WoW >.>

I had some concerns if there were enough party / raid wide AoEs to actually trigger this approach without yanking aggro. It's no fun for the gearing tank if they can't regain aggro no matter what and it's no fun for the DPS if they have to sit there doing nothing. Several seconds of waiting for initial aggro is understandable, but a bigger period of 10 - 20 seconds over and over in the course of a fight gets to be too much.

As for what the tanks want for a more engaging rotation, I still haven't been able to find a consensus quite yet what we would want. We could add another combo finisher like what Dark Knight's Delirium used to be. Hmm, but what else . . . It could also be a different 2nd combo move that can still lead to an existing combo finisher or 2. It would probably end up being something like a self buff that improves the next use of something like Sheltron. We used to have the Scourge and Fracture DoTs on Warrior and Dark Knight too. They might be candidates for 2nd combo moves. I just hope Fracture will actually be worth it this time if they do this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tigore

Is that so? I had been absent for a year during Stormblood, so some details seemed to have eluded me. That Mage Tower in WoW >.>

I had some concerns if there were enough party / raid wide AoEs to actually trigger this approach without yanking aggro. It's no fun for the gearing tank if they can't regain aggro no matter what and it's no fun for the DPS if they have to sit there doing nothing. Several seconds of waiting for initial aggro is understandable, but a bigger period of 10 - 20 seconds over and over in the course of a fight gets to be too much.

As for what the tanks want for a more engaging rotation, I still haven't been able to find a consensus quite yet what we would want. We could add another combo finisher like what Dark Knight's Delirium used to be. Hmm, but what else . . . It could also be a different 2nd combo move that can still lead to an existing combo finisher or 2. It would probably end up being something like a self buff that improves the next use of something like Sheltron. We used to have the Scourge and Fracture DoTs on Warrior and Dark Knight too. They might be candidates for 2nd combo moves. I just hope Fracture will actually be worth it this time if they do this.

---

Uuuuh, again, in SB that was not a thing. Dungeon tanks sat in tank stance with adds cause you needed to for the mitigation. For raid, again, SAM, heck all DPS had diversion which removed all hate created from them by like 80-90% for their entire opener, leading to the Tank being way ahead on hate (which they never used aggro combo). After 1 combo of opening up Tanks would turn off tank stance and be in DPS the rest of the fight. If they for some reason really needed hate, that was on the OT to voke shirk the MT and they would never have hate issues (unless DPS didn't use their diversion/hate drops which they are supposed to do).

What tanks need is just more to do for our rotations. Each job would need something different for each one cause right now... they are all almost the exact same tank with minor changes. Its kinda... bleeeeeeeeeeeeh.

If there is one thing that puzzles me is why they removed the bigger health pool niche for Warriors. They had numerous self heals as their form to deal with damage and used the bigger health pool to still survive the hits. I believe the heals they received were boosted too so they weren't just mana sponges.

Another mechanic from WoW would be a damage delay that Brewmaster Monks have with an additional way to purify the delay DoT damage. Hmm, but this might fit Astrologians better with their Time Mage roots.

Some other ideas could be a debuff tank and a partial damage reflect tank. I think Dark Knight with the old Delirium combo could take this up again for the debuff role. Maybe another AoE combo with a bunch of swords stabbing upwards . . . or downwards as a rain of blades. This leaves Gunbreaker with the damage reflect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tigore

If there is one thing that puzzles me is why they removed the bigger health pool niche for Warriors.[...]

---

We can only speculate at this point, they've never given any explanation about this "hyperbole homogenisation".
At first, it seemed like they wanted to remove WAR from the "secured spot" it almost always had thanks to slashing debuff and stronger shields from tank stance (+20%). But then they added the +20% effect to Thrill of Battle, plus it now works on all actions whereas the old Defiance -yes, even Conva- only worked on spells (GCD heals), and didn't affect ability heals whatsoever (Equilibium, too). It is as they removed pretty much every little gimmick or leftover identity on "lower levels" -which even includes lvl 70 at this point- and given some of it back in another shape or form, e.g. Nascent Flash's self heal vs. old bloodbath or IB/SC heal. This makes lower level experience even worse imho because you can't even see the difference between the tanks until after level 71.
I don't know the answer, but I guess the dev team didn't had any quick solution, and -as BarretOblivion said- had their attention mostly on DPS jobs. End result, tanks and healers were left behind and falling short of actual (re-)design. They feel... soulless.